Hiring Freeze at WJA?

[truedude]

$10,000.00

[True North]

$10,000.00

Bullshit.

[mikeecho]

Mattedfrred - no.

Tailgunner - stickontheice's comments have a kernel of truth despite the distasteful comparison to JetsGo.

In 2005 and 2006 or so, the industry was getting hammered by the insanity of the lowest bidder. JestGo was setting the price in the market for the common routes with AC and WS. The irony of JetsGo's demise is that they could have lasted much longer if they had only charged more as the markets could have sustained higher prices and AC and WS would have matched those prices. Pressure on yield in those days was the sole fault of JetsGo.

Sad but true - do your own research - pressure on yield in many markets has been the fault of AC in the last six months. Despite the tough times - there are markets out there that would support higher fares and WS would love to bump the fares too. The irony is not lost on stickontheice who understands that despite the toiugh times all around - there are certain markets where AC could help itself just by raising fares.

BTW - as far as research goes - please look beyond last minute seat sales and odd ball situations like Yellowknife.

Believe me I fully undersatand that WS is no longer the beat down red headed step child it was years ago and is guilty of throwing it's weight around too here and there.

I'll gladly retract my F bomb above if Donald or whiteguy can logically explain why in this case us wj'ers are hypocritical.

One last thing - I harbour no resentment for any competitor in this business. I walk proudly in my goofy uniform and treat my colleagues from other airlines with tremendous respect when out on the line. However when people come after me and my airline - that is when I take a hard stance and get rude.


Donald? whiteguy? you're up.

Lol.... Well how about we look past the last 6 months... how about we look past 2005 and the whole Jetsgo situation?? How about we look back to when Westjet started and figured that by paying their employees crap and discouraging full time employment they could leverage those costs savings to make a few bucks? They charged into a market dominated by Canadian Airlines and Air Canada and immediately started under-cutting them and launching price wars on the 'western triangle'. Hmmm.... kinda sounds similar to the whole Jetsgo situation, doesn't it?? How do you think Westjet grew from 3 airplanes to the 70+ it has now?? By charging "what the markets could sustain" and paying their employees a real wage with real benefits? Not even close! The real irony is that Westjetters don't understand that they were the first Jetsgo... They helped to destroy the high standards in wages and benefits that existed in Canadian aviation thanks to Air Canada and Canadian Airlines by launching price wars and undercutting the majors. They have dragged the majority of us down in order so that they could reap the benefits.... So JJJ that is why you are being a hypocrite.... Because Westjet set the example in Canada that the Jetsgos of the world have been following ever since. But when somebody comes along and tries to out Westjet Westjet, you get all bent out of shape! Your airline changed the rules of the game... it should be prepared to live by those new rules and not cry bloody murder every time a competitor tries to win some market share away...

You left the part out about WJ having a sustainable business plan, a focus on cost control and a strategic plan that saw it charging fares that allowed them to make money for all but 2 quarters in the last 13 years. Small detail, but you missed it.

AC offers low fares, Jetsgo did it and WJ does it.

As long as your CASM is such that you can still turn a profit, then it's smart business.

If your CASM doesn't support it, it's nothing more than a cash grab to pay todays bills with tomorrow's revenues. When tomorrow's revenues dry, it inevitably ends in liquidation or bankruptcy protection.

[mikeecho]

$10,000.00

Who issued the alleged fine?

[truedude]

You left the part out about WJ having a sustainable business plan, a focus on cost control and a strategic plan that saw it charging fares that allowed them to make money for all but 2 quarters in the last 13 years. Small detail, but you missed it.

Your right it was sustainable, because they paid there employee's crap. Your cost control you speak of, is really wage control. Keeping your wages as low as possible for as long as possible. Small detail but you missed it.

[Huge Hammer]

You left the part out about WJ having a sustainable business plan, a focus on cost control and a strategic plan that saw it charging fares that allowed them to make money for all but 2 quarters in the last 13 years. Small detail, but you missed it.

Your right it was sustainable, because they paid there employee's crap. Your cost control you speak of, is really wage control. Keeping your wages as low as possible for as long as possible. Small detail but you missed it.

Wrong again. When you are in a hole it is not a bad idea to stop digging.

Pilots - paid so poorly that their peers at the other airlines study their agreement to try use as leverage in their negotiations.

CSA - better starting wage than any ground handling company and AC

MTCE - better paid than AC

Try again, maybe you will get something right yet

All you're doing here is proving that your tiny grasp of airline economics is only exceeded by your poor grammar and lack of operations knowledge.

[mikeecho]

You left the part out about WJ having a sustainable business plan, a focus on cost control and a strategic plan that saw it charging fares that allowed them to make money for all but 2 quarters in the last 13 years. Small detail, but you missed it.

Your right it was sustainable, because they paid there employee's crap. Your cost control you speak of, is really wage control. Keeping your wages as low as possible for as long as possible. Small detail but you missed it.

The wages may have been lower in the early days, but those people made out like bandits with options and the ESP. Those people did way better over the course of 4 years than what AC or CP could have paid.

Now, as someone who worked at CP/AC and WJ, I can tell you with first hand experience that in today's dollars, I make a hell of a lot more at WJ as compared to AC (and I only have to do my job 5 days a week as opposed to having to work 7 days a week at AC to cover the work of 2 or 3 others who were let go).

I know, because I still get job offers from them and they choke when they offer a $$ amount and then I tell them what it would need to be to equal my current compensation (not including profit share, ESP, etc...).

And when you look at frontline roles, almost across the board, WJ is higher than at AC until about the 7-8 year mark, when AC jumps ahead slightly.

The biggest difference is a lack of a pension. It saves the company a lot of money, and I find it has no impact on the employee who manages their own retirement. I manage my own retirement plan and have been able to do significantly better using a good financial planner than I was able to do handing over my money to the AC pension every month.

The reality is that AC has been leading the charge to the bottom of the pay scale for a long time now.

[truedude]

Wrong again. When you are in a hole it is not a bad idea to stop digging.

Pilots - paid so poorly that their peers at the other airlines study their agreement to try use as leverage in their negotiations.

CSA - better starting wage than any ground handling company and AC

MTCE - better paid than AC

Try again, maybe you will get something right yet

Maybe today some of that is true.. lets take a flash back to 1996 though.. none of that was true. Your pilots where the lowest paid 37 dirvers in North America. CSA's where getting crap, and the company discouraged full time work. Most of your then MTCE staff showed up when they got laid off from Canadian, and you where not paying them what they got paid there. You may be doing okay now.. but remember you got there by offering to do the work for less than industry standard. The U.S.A. became the richest economy in the world largely due to slave labor. The success of Westjet is largely due to your willingness to work for less in the past.

[jjj]

I support government help for Air Canada now that they are under the leadeship of a new CEO.

We helped out the auto industry and I think we need to help AC again.

If AC were to fail - the door would open up for discount airlines. A concept that confuses Snagmaster. A discount airline is a POS airline like the former JetsGo which offers very little value. WS is a low cost carrier who keeps a very tight leash on costs yet offers very good value.

Truedue, the poorly paid pilots in 1996 are wealthy. Once agian you like many around here can't look past the cash portion of our compensation. Yes the cash portion back then was about 70K for a skipper but they were also handed a ton of options.

Since then the total compensation for pilots has changes very little for pilots at WS but there has been a shift towards more cash in lieu of options - a natural evolution as the likelyhood of big gains diminishes as a company matures. People keep reminding me that I degrade the industry yet somehow I grossed about 5 grand in OT in the last 5 days - oh and that was under our 2006 agreement.


AC has a shot at effecting some positive change as WS does not compete in the business class or first class models and has a transborder network that is incredibly small. West of Canada the network ends in Hawaii - to the south it ends in Mexico - to the east it ends in Newfoundland.

[sepia]

I think anyone with a sense of reality would understand that both Airlines are far from guilt free. Both airlines have used absolute price wars to try to steal or hold onto market share. Both airlines had customer disasters in YVR this past winter. Both Airlines have joined hands in the race towards the bottom.

I am happy to see the WJPA stand up and shoot down a bad contract. I hope that between our two groups we can slowly rebuild our profession to where it was decades ago. Constantly pointing the finger and saying it's the other guy isn't going to accomplish this. Hopefully the moderates on both sides can talk some reason into those not too far gone.

[Snagmaster E]

What a load of crap. How well was Canadian doing as a full service carrier? The industry would not be in better shape. Your definition of service is way off. How about not cancelling flights, treating people with courtesy, Live TV, real people answering the phones and not waiting forever, lots of aspects of "service" that WS beats all the competitors. There is loads of "service" with WestJet.

Service? Listen, my airline has real people answering phones, just like WJ and AC. If it's busy you get a recording, just like WJ and AC. We hardly cancel flights, unless there's some way out there reason, just like WJ (no comment on AC). Live TV? That's not a comment card on the back of AC's seats. My airline provides food. Not a cookie. Food. Newspapers, pillows, blankets, hot towels, drinks, sandwiches, treats, second drink, assorted cookies, mints. That's what we provide, included. WJ and AC do not. A flight I did not too long ago had one service for a 3 hour trip. Our flights are on average 55 min long and this service will be done maybe 6 times a day with one crew.

We are not bargain basement pricing. We charge. Our competitors charge. We don't play the limbo game. Not to the extreme, like the "Dollar" fares that JetsGo used to advertise.

I was referring to inflight service. It ain't what it used to be in the majors. Service and pricing have changed greatly from 30 years ago. I won't even get into pay for employees.

You seemed to thing this was pointed at WJ. I said all carriers. Read it again. Read the first part:

I think WJ is great, and it came out in a time...

E for effort but I hope you don't land like you comment, because you're way off.

[Spit-IX]

Pilots - paid so poorly that their peers at the other airlines study their agreement to try use as leverage in their negotiations.

It's news to me that other airlines were using the Westjet agreement as an example of fair wages and benefits 10 years ago.

I had a friend in one of your early 2009 classes and he had to stay in a hotel and pay for his breakfast and supper the entire time of his initial. It cost him a lot of money that WJ saved so they can undercut their competitors, 5T and 7F as an example. He knew he'd have to pay for training costs before he agreed to join the team but he wanted it pretty bad and will now suffer for a few years as a Westjetter just as most new hires at any 705 airline in Canada have to suffer, thanks to......Westjet.

[jjj]

Spit-IX,

Taking a job at WS means you are accepting a YYC base - don't like it - don't apply.

Raise a family in YVR and take a job at AC and you could find yourself commuting to YYZ for reserve duty all the time. BTW - the YYZ assignment won't come until you have left your previous job and started at AC - is that fair? - what will the commute cost you? - good thing they gave you a hotel during GS? - what is it you feel the airlines owe you? - once again - don't like it then don't apply. Oh, I forgot - that scenario must be Westjet's fault.

BTW - training pay has been abolished since 2006 and new hires get their full hourly rate effective day one. Raises are based on date of hire for FO's and are not affected by completion dates for training and line indoc.

BTW - FOs make over a 100k per year after 2 years of employment.

BTW - there are few overtime fences and overtime whores make a lot of cash. The biggest overtime whore skipper made over 320K in 2009. The biggest overtime whore FO made over 210K in 2009.

BTW - your buddy from a 2009 class is about to get a fat raise.

BTW - what was Canadian Regional pilot paid in the F 28 ground school circa 1996? When you find me the answer to that question and prove to me how that was somehow WestJet's fault - I'll buy you a case of whiskey.

BTW - I can think of a few buddies that went to AC in 1996 and 1998 from lowly medevac jobs. Both took a pay cut and I suppose that is the fault of WS too.

BTW - the ACPA has already been waving around version 1 of our 2009 agreement in hopes of improving their situation. The ACPA will shit their pants if agreement 2.0 gets voted in over the next few weeks as it will really help out in bargaining



Bringing down the industry,
JJJ

[Flightlevels]

same topics just keep coming around by the same people. Don't forget that AC was recently in Minister Bairds office looking for loan guarantees. Fact - it was asked directly and he answered directly since it's part of the game. Look at the auto industry.
Who cares about 10 years ago. Who cares if you live somewhere else and you applied for a job in YYC and now you have expenses to commute or move. Who really cares what a competition pilot/employee really has to say about our outfit. (If our guys want to complain about it then bring it up. I haven't heard of one face to face or formal complaint yet) We fly people safely, efficiently and we are progressive. That's all that matters.

[truedude]

I think my initial point became lost. I never meant to imply that Westjet employee's should not feel pride over the success of their airline. An airline succeeding is extremely rare. My point was simply those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. No one can argue that when Westjet started it paid crap. Many of those employee's who went to work for them and accepted sub industry wages hurt us all. Management worked very hard for many years in a morally questionable manner to keep those wages low for the majority of those working for Westjet. Engaged in an act of corporate espionage on scale never seen in the airline industry before. This of course gave them an enormous strategic advantage when planning their eastern expansion. For years used what many accountants referred to as "aggressive accounting practices" to post small profits in a couple slow quarters. My point is simply when you work for a company that has become successful in part by employing morally questionable practices you should not be so quick to throw mud at any competitor. No one gets to claim the morale high ground.

Forgot to mention, I am sure there are at least 2 good grammar mistakes up there for the people who care.

[tonysoprano]

Don't forget that AC was recently in Minister Bairds office looking for loan guarantees. Fact - it was asked directly and he answered directly since it's part of the game. Look at the auto industry.

I missed it. can you provide proof? Must be in the papers or written somewhere...(google, google....)

Fact, just for the record, AC and the unions did not ask for any government intervention. A pension deal was in the works. Cowboy Steve Harper panicked and jumped the gun. Just shows how worried the government is about Big Red losing its way. Premature ejaculation. But then again, that's all normal cumming from cowboys.

[sickofstupidity]

How can anyone say that WJ isn't responsible (whether it is good or bad) for the low fares currently offered in the Canadian market? They are directly responsible. Essentially they introduced the low cost model to Canada and low cost = low fares. They are also guilty of the predatory pricing in the North that they (including many WJ'ers on here) cried foul over when AC did it.

Why do WJ employees get so defensive all the time? No one denies that it is a good job at a company who continually makes money. However, some of you seem to have a slightly "overinflated" sense of how good your job is relative to the rest of the aviation world. The constant attacks on people who question WJ or your terms and conditions to me, indicate a some sort of insecurity about your job or your conditions. Otherwise you would simply laugh off the criticism and know that living well is the best revenge!

[Huge Hammer]

I think my initial point became lost. I never meant to imply that Westjet employee's should not feel pride over the success of their airline. An airline succeeding is extremely rare. My point was simply those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. No one can argue that when Westjet started it paid crap. Many of those employee's who went to work for them and accepted sub industry wages hurt us all. Management worked very hard for many years in a morally questionable manner to keep those wages low for the majority of those working for Westjet. Engaged in an act of corporate espionage on scale never seen in the airline industry before. This of course gave them an enormous strategic advantage when planning their eastern expansion. For years used what many accountants referred to as "aggressive accounting practices" to post small profits in a couple slow quarters. My point is simply when you work for a company that has become successful in part by employing morally questionable practices you should not be so quick to throw mud at any competitor. No one gets to claim the morale high ground.

Forgot to mention, I am sure there are at least 2 good grammar mistakes up there for the people who care.

Seriously, can you get any stupider or more desperate?

In a ham fisted attempt to slag WS you move from one point to the other none of which are tru or grounded in reality.

Wages in the beginning were supplemented by the options which made many people millionaires. The wages were pegged at 95% of the market average with shares and profit share making up the rest. There were no slave wages.

Your "many accountants" is one mouth for hire who still says that WS is complying with all GAAP measures.
The espionage that you spoke of was so serious that no criminal charge was ever laid. While I don't defend it, it was so overblown that it was ridiculous. AC also did lots of scummy things that never made the press, the reason that they dragged their feet on discovery for so long.

The success came from hard work and a great product. You are too jealous or dumb to see that.

Still waiting for the info on the 10 K finbe you claim is being paid.

[Biff]

Wages in the beginning were supplemented by the options which made many people millionaires.

You're right, many did become very rich off of the options. Fortunately for WS, the current accounting rules were not in effect, giving them the ability to issue options at no cost to the company. The wage that they had to account for on their balance sheet was very little, giving them a huge initial advantage over the established carriers.

[truedude]

Seriously, can you get any stupider or more desperate?

In a ham fisted attempt to slag WS you move from one point to the other none of which are tru or grounded in reality.

Wages in the beginning were supplemented by the options which made many people millionaires. The wages were pegged at 95% of the market average with shares and profit share making up the rest. There were no slave wages.

Your "many accountants" is one mouth for hire who still says that WS is complying with all GAAP measures.
The espionage that you spoke of was so serious that no criminal charge was ever laid. While I don't defend it, it was so overblown that it was ridiculous. AC also did lots of scummy things that never made the press, the reason that they dragged their feet on discovery for so long.

The success came from hard work and a great product. You are too jealous or dumb to see that.

Still waiting for the info on the 10 K finbe you claim is being paid.

WOW!! Nice to see people can discuss things like adults on here. Its seems your only way to disagree is to fling mud. You say none of my points are true or grounded in reality... Curious as to which one is not true. The fact that Westjet drivers where the lowest paid 737 guys in North America in 1996. No that was true. The aggressive accounting which did not account for future D checks, may not be illegal, however considering every airline in North America does it... I would call that aggressive. It was not just one accountant either. As for the espionage, your right no one went to jail for it... but that's because Air Canada stopped perusing it. If it was so overblown, why did Westjet agree to pay out a whole lot of money to make it go away. They waited after the discovery to mount a case. You don't disagree that the espionage took place, but you seem unable to see that it may have helped Westjets expansion, come on. If I know every single load on every single flight that my competitor does.. it will be very easy to start and cherry pick where I am going to deploy my fleet, and see real time results.

I am neither stupid or jealous, ignoring the facts because they happen to disagree with the sunny picture you have painted for yourself is ignorance. That is what bothers me.

[Arctic84]

Quite the discussion. It's interesting from my POV, since I have been at WJ since it started.

Let's look at some of the points mentioned, shall we?

Poor Wages;

When I came to WJ, I actually got a raise. Never mind options, profit share, ESP. Just the base pay was a raise. I tried at my previous employer (now a part of the AC family) to improve my income. Carried a picket sign for three weeks. Some of my "brothers" at the mainline showed their support by flipping me the bird, and accosting me on the picket line. Seems my aspirations for a living wage conflicted with their desire not to rock the boat at the corp. Every man for himself, that was the theme. Now I don't have to work, but what the hell, can't sit on my ass for the next 30 years.

Undercutting The Competition;

When I started at WJ, AC and CP were savaging each other on every route in Canada. They were so fixated on wiping each other out, it was almost embarrasing to watch. It was like two mentally challenged chaps pounding each other outside the bottle depot. Not at all pretty. WJ gave the market what it wanted, and that wasn't $400 one way from YYC to YVR. Too bad the majors were too busy kicking each other in the nuts to see what was happening in the marketplace. As for the northern carriers, they had years of a comfortable duopoly and did, well, nothing.

Corporate Espionage ;

In the late 90's, WJ hired a CEO from one of our competitors (what the hell were they thinking). A short time later, buddy gets a lot of money to go away. Damned if he doesn't show up running an "airline within an airline" for the formentioned competitor. Funny coincidence, eh? Dude walks out the door with all the information. Fortunately the "airline within an airline" is as successful as the parent airline.

You guys can try to re-write history all you want. Just don't piss down my neck and tell me it's raining.

[Snagmaster E]

Seriously, can you get any stupider or more desperate?

In a ham fisted attempt to slag WS .....

... You are too jealous or dumb to see that.

There's no need to be calling people stupid, jealous, or the like. Make points if you like, but be civil. If you act this way at work......

[Bluetooth]

hey did someone mention a hiring freeze??

[Snagmaster E]

hey did someone mention a hiring freeze??

Quite right! LOL. Skillfully done, and I hope it gets back on topic.

[Huge Hammer]

Seriously, can you get any stupider or more desperate?

In a ham fisted attempt to slag WS .....

... You are too jealous or dumb to see that.

There's no need to be calling people stupid, jealous, or the like. Make points if you like, but be civil. If you act this way at work......

Just calling as I see 'em.

Someone comes on here spouting lies and they get called on it. They keep up with the crap then I have to question their motivation for spouting such crap.

Still waiting for more info about the 10,000 fine.