ACPA Signs

[c170b53]

Well I don't think that's true because this mechanic can wine with the best! But curious minds would just like to know if there's any truth to the C1 rumour. I know this will be proven out in time but if true it would really get the crying going, for the below and slightly aft of the wing gang.

[disco]

What C1 rumor?

[Jaques Strappe]

Personally, I am pretty sick of all the cloak and dagger gag ordered negotiations. Historically, they have done nothing but foster rumor and deepen mistrust. It is little wonder, with all the secret side deals that have been made under the cloak of darkness in the past, that our contract is now thicker and more complex than our FOM.

We are long over due for clear and transparent negotiation.

[c170b53]

Agree, and we all have a good idea as to the wage differences, that's not the whine. It appears that our company feels that it gains strength when it pits employee works groups against each other. This appears to be opposite to a tactic used by a competitor, but that may only be my perception as I have not worked for that firm.

[hithere]

What C1 rumour

[yvrflyer3480]

What C1 rumour??

Unlimited C1's for pilots and their families.

[hithere]

You're joking right?

[hithere]

Are we talking about the C1 with 3 times the service charge that was previously limited to 2/year?

[whiteguy]

Are we talking about the C1 with 3 times the service charge that was previously limited to 2/year?

4 per year, previously 1 per year.

[hithere]

I don't get it-why would that even be a bargaining carrot? Those passes are bloody expensive. Most people I know never use them.

[whiteguy]

I don't get it-why would that even be a bargaining carrot? Those passes are bloody expensive. Most people I know never use them.

Depends alot on the flights. I know the YVR-HNL flight they get used alot. Mostly by junior employees which forces senior employees to use them to get on the flights. Don't mind the C1s but get rid of the seniority jump!

[yycflyguy]

Personally, I am pretty sick of all the cloak and dagger gag ordered negotiations. Historically, they have done nothing but foster rumor and deepen mistrust. It is little wonder, with all the secret side deals that have been made under the cloak of darkness in the past, that our contract is now thicker and more complex than our FOM.

We are long over due for clear and transparent negotiation.

As Mr Durfy might say: "we're screwed brutha".

Is it common place that a representing board, such as our MEC, would sign a non-disclusure clause before presenting an unbiased review to the membership that they are elected to serve? It might be the mistrust in high level corruption I saw from my days in Latin America but it smells to me like we are sleeping with the enemy. There, I said it. This was suppose to be a Pension Solvency issue and all of the sudden we are presented with a TA? WTF, over. Our chairman resigns because, in my opinion, he was the only one that saw the corruption and couldn't lie to his colleauges. Something stinks in Stinktown.

When I saw the interview out president gave to BNN I was totally embarrassed to be part of the union of which he presides over. I am no public speaker, but I do know that one should present himself with some sort of professionalism. What I saw was poor posture, a rumpled suit, face twitching and the type of uninspired speaking qualities one would see in a high school debate. He was careful not to step on CUPEs toes meanwhile totally presenting an underwhelming presentation for ACPA's views, not to mention not a word from him on the ACPA forum... and this is our president?

For me this is a hugely dissapointing development. After the pay progression debacle that saw the resignation of another pilot-playing-negotiator I am officially un-impressed with my representation. I am surprised there is not more anger. Westjet just signed an agreement with their pilots that see their new hires making DOUBLE what our new-hires make and here we are presenting our membership with a TA that has the huge incentive of downtown layovers after 15 hours and $1500 for our previously UNPAID training days (illegal btw).

Well, back to my happy place. No skin off my nose to vote No when the day comes. The roadshow should be fun next week

[Rockie]

Personally, I am pretty sick of all the cloak and dagger gag ordered negotiations. Historically, they have done nothing but foster rumor and deepen mistrust. It is little wonder, with all the secret side deals that have been made under the cloak of darkness in the past, that our contract is now thicker and more complex than our FOM.

We are long over due for clear and transparent negotiation.

As Mr Durfy might say: "we're screwed brutha".

Is it common place that a representing board, such as our MEC, would sign a non-disclusure clause before presenting an unbiased review to the membership that they are elected to serve? It might be the mistrust in high level corruption I saw from my days in Latin America but it smells to me like we are sleeping with the enemy. There, I said it. This was suppose to be a Pension Solvency issue and all of the sudden we are presented with a TA? WTF, over. Our chairman resigns because, in my opinion, he was the only one that saw the corruption and couldn't lie to his colleauges. Something stinks in Stinktown.

When I saw the interview out president gave to BNN I was totally embarrassed to be part of the union of which he presides over. I am no public speaker, but I do know that one should present himself with some sort of professionalism. What I saw was poor posture, a rumpled suit, face twitching and the type of uninspired speaking qualities one would see in a high school debate. He was careful not to step on CUPEs toes meanwhile totally presenting an underwhelming presentation for ACPA's views, not to mention not a word from him on the ACPA forum... and this is our president?

For me this is a hugely dissapointing development. After the pay progression debacle that saw the resignation of another pilot-playing-negotiator I am officially un-impressed with my representation. I am surprised there is not more anger. Westjet just signed an agreement with their pilots that see their new hires making DOUBLE what our new-hires make and here we are presenting our membership with a TA that has the huge incentive of downtown layovers after 15 hours and $1500 for our previously UNPAID training days (illegal btw).

Well, back to my happy place. No skin off my nose to vote No when the day comes. The roadshow should be fun next week

While I feel your pain, Air Canada is a much different airline than Westjet and is in a dramatically different financial position. Also, the agreement as far as I can tell is exactly what ACPA said they were going to present to the company when they did the last road show. If there was any opposition to the plan that would have been the time to voice it.

[Glen Quagmire]

What seems to sail over many of me peers heads about this whole debacle is that by throwing ACPA under the bus like most seem to be doing they are essentially subverting the union and de-legitimizing it. Who would take a union seriously that has essentially received a vote of non confidence from it's members. This isn't even some nuanced political consequence, it should be dreadfully obvious, it will certainly be obvious to management. The irony is that the people throwing rocks at the union are the same one's who think we should say no to prove a point and make a stand, making a stand with what? a union that has been rendered powerless from it's own members?

As far as the MEC chair quitting, it's totally a bush league move which has essentially destabilized the entire process. Let the members decide what is good or not then step down and state your reasons for doing so. That act has been like catnip for the hardliners to rail against ACPA's negotiators and the company.

All that nonsense aside the most important question that isn't being asked by anyone is what would CCAA 2.0 look like? I keep hearing "bring on CCAA" ad nauseum and yes it making me nauseous. Personally I see round two as the worst possible scenario for the group.

[JazzJetDriver]

Thank heavens that Picher was never accepted...I would be in this mess too.

[Jaques Strappe]

Glen

I think what you may need to consider is that people have had enough. We have had enough of watching this airline getting raped. We have had enough of government interference and power plays causing us to buy and merge with defunct debt laden airlines. We are sick and tired of the systematic stealing of equity that employees helped to build. We are fed up with the executive abuse of bonuses and distributions. We have had enough, watching our salaries sink below Y2K levels. We are sick of watching airplanes with only 2 people on board, getting paid for a full house, all in the name of an income trust. We are sick of people saying that Air Canada is going to get another bail out when in fact, it has never ever been bailed out previously but rather used as a tool in another bailout. We are sick of having nothing to sit on because some previous asshole went and sold all the furniture.

Air Canada has been in a position to enter CCAA for the past few months. Management does not want to go there primarily because unlike CCAA v1.0, most of our debt is secured and with a filing, the creditors will simply come and take their toys. Some employees are so fed up and truly believe that this round is yet just another shell game. Yes, perhaps they would like nothing more than to see the entire thing collapse on management and the federal government which, is where this mess firmly belongs.

It has bugger all to do with unions, as their members, in most cases, are paid below industry standard. It has been said before, each and every employee could work for free and they would still run the company into the ground, so unless there are FUNDAMENTAL changes, any band aid agreement will do nothing in the long term. It will only provide Calin with a small window of opportunity to sell his million stock options. The people who are upset about all this are looking longer term.

All of the employees at Air Canada are passionate about their airline, make no mistake about that. They just have such a septic hate for management and its' tactics which make it very very difficult to do a job and provide the level of service we truly want to provide.

So do people sign and simply pro long the death? Or do they say no, in hopes that they can work for whoever comes in to fill the vacuum? Who knows. Personally, I think the TA will pass, only because most will look at it as another day to fight the fight but you know that something doesn't smell right when all the unions signed a pact saying that they would say nothing bad about the TA or the negotiations which may explain why Andy Wilson basically had his hands tied in that interview.

This may not be a popular post but I think it needed to be said. The next time I hear someone say there is not enough money to pay people their pre Y2K salaries, would they please explain to me how there seems to be enough to pay the executives approximately double their Y2K salaries? It's not like their performance warrants it!

[TyrellCorp]

Great post Jaques. As a fellow AC guy I have to completely agree with your assessment. If we keep going down this road it won't be long before we are all looking for work elsewhere having to yet again start at the bottom. I'm extremely concerned about the implications if this TA is ratified. It will not fix the fundamental issues, only delay the inevitable while giving those that raped us even more. How many amongst us realize this, will be the million dollar question.

[Localizer]

We have had enough of government interference and power plays causing us to buy and merge with defunct debt laden airlines.

Merge with a defunct airline? .. Are you talking about the once debt free, crown corp Air Canada being forced to buy an airline the government drove into bankruptcy via competition with its own tax dollars? Just wanted to be sure we're talking about the same defunct airline.

We are sick of watching airplanes with only 2 people on board, getting paid for a full house, all in the name of an income trust.

I've been on a 321 with only 20 people ..... more than once!

Lots of problems out there Jaques ... and the world ain't a fair place. I don't claim to know the answers and looking around nobody else seems to know them either ...

[c170b53]

J Thank you, I obviously couldn't get that across and I agree with your points. I don't think I have to point its a bad time to be looking for a job right now if someone wished to remain in aviation. This isn't about extracting revenge, but rather its about building a base that will instill confidence in the employees. It feels like another gun pointed at my head and this time it appears to be a large caliber. I don't think a company that valued its employees would take this tact. I very much dislike how the TA and the pension vote is tied together. It just looks like my union is being played the same way it was played before. Yes its a tough world, only tougher when you choose to beat up your own family. We have a ton of stuff to fix, won't happen until the peace pipe is smoked.

[whiteguy]

We have had enough of government interference and power plays causing us to buy and merge with defunct debt laden airlines.

Merge with a defunct airline? .. Are you talking about the once debt free, crown corp Air Canada being forced to buy an airline the government drove into bankruptcy via competition with its own tax dollars? Just wanted to be sure we're talking about the same defunct airline.

No I think he's talking about the privatized and profitable company Air Canada being forced to takeover the unprofitable defunct airline with half the fleet and same number of employees that was proped up more than once by government money. Then saddled with many restrictions like servicing smaller communities and not laying off employees for 2 years. All on the whim of Liberial financial supporter!

[the original tony]

just curious.......... may be a stupid question!
this cost neutral deal, no bonuses and such.
is this also mean there is no pay progression from year 1 to 2??
being in the pay group and looking forward to yr 2 which isnt saying much, would be nice to get the bump up.
thanks for any clarification
and hopefully not for all in the PG!!


Tony

[Jaques Strappe]

Localizer

Merge with a defunct airline? .. Are you talking about the once debt free, crown corp Air Canada being forced to buy an airline the government drove into bankruptcy via competition with its own tax dollars? Just wanted to be sure we're talking about the same defunct airline.

I am referring to CAIL. I am not sure which one you are referring to because CAIL never actually went bankrupt, it was bailed out in the 11th hour. CAIL was also formed in the mid to late 80's ( from a series of mergers ) which was when AC was also privatized, so other than the government forcing the purchase of CAIL, I do not understand your point.

Here is a CBC report I took out of the archives, perhaps you may wish to refresh your memory on how the merger actually impacted Air Canada.

http://archives.cbc.ca/economy_business ... lips/6192/

I've been on a 321 with only 20 people ..... more than once!

Lots of problems out there Jaques ... and the world ain't a fair place. I don't claim to know the answers and looking around nobody else seems to know them either ...

I won't argue with that, however we only get paid for the people we carry, while in the meantime, we have a crippling CPA that pays for fuel and 15% even if they fly empty. Just one of many practices that need to be changed before any employee at Air Canada will actually believe the executive management is taking Air Canada's long term health seriously.

I am not necessarily advocating that everyone say no the tentative agreement. I do believe that ACPA went and got what they said they would get and quite frankly, I would be more concerned if they came back with the pension resolved and a 20% raise. There is simply no money. What I am pissed off about and I believe the majority of the Air Canada employees are pissed about is the fact that we are obviously not the problem. The over paid idiots who lost us $1 billion last year in fuel hedges and exchange rates after taking $2 billion out of the operation, are once again asking us to solve their problems. I am done, sorry. If it gets turned down, I doubt it will be because of ACPA but rather because nothing has changed. It is like the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over, each time expecting different results.

So Montie was replaced with Calin. Big fucking deal. A pension moratorium and a status quo collective agreement only delays the inevitable. To be fair, it could be argued that Calin needs this time to actually do the things that need to be done in order to secure the airline's future but I doubt anyone actually believes that. He will put on a band-aid, secure some financing and hope the markets rebound enough for him to claim himself as yet another "saviour" of Air Canada, sell his options and ride off into the sunset with his bags of money. In the meantime, when the pumps quit, the S.S. Air Canada will start sinking again and again and again.

That is what frustrates us.

[Brick Head]

Original,

Progression remains as it is now.

Gentleman or ladies as the case may be,

Just wait for more details. Yes the ACPA deal does not attain what we wanted. It covers pension, and financing but does not address the cost savings needed for AC to be viable long term. Well it does but the wording is weak.

The ACPA presentation showed about 1 billion was required over the next 5 years in cost savings. CR has stated 250 million per year is needed. Notice they are not far off each other.

The media reported that further restructuring would announced once all unions committed.

If it ain't obvious. The unions already know what this restructuring entails. CUPE is presently fighting over it. Service Director positions and 1 in 50 language....if it were to happen.

So before we commit to throwing AC under the bus we might want to find out what that restructuring plan is. It won't be in print until we sign but will be verbally available soon at a meeting near you.

I'll leave you with this thought. Although ACPA's idea of cost savings was important. It gave us a target that we know is required. It empowered us with knowledge. It however is lacking. Why? It doesn't look inward at ourselves and other employee groups.

We need to now what AC has planned. We need to know if it is realistic. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

The bottom line is 200-250 million in yearly costs savings need to be found to create viability. As employees do we care where they find it unless it comes out of our pocket? It is my understanding that the further restructuring does not include AC employees other than what is going on with CUPE.

With that said. If we are not comfortable, I don't trust them either, keep throwing it back until we are.

[rudder]

If anybody believes that a cash flow improvement of $250M/yr is all that is required to fix what ails a $10B/yr enterprise then there is still hope for the tooth fairy and old Saint Nick.

The current dilemma facing the industry is a revenue side problem. Yields will only begin to recover with further capacity reductions, perhaps on the order of a liquidation (UAUA). It is unlikely that WJ will blink anytime soon. Therefore, you need a model (including costs) that match the environment.

Will no raises and reduced pension contributions for just 21 months do the trick? Not likely.

[c170b53]

Oh I know I'm going to regret this but...........
With respect to our long past woes, do they really matter now? Who knows what the real figures were. Can we agree that nothing has changed since that last merger/ take-over/ consolidation and that's the real problem? I worked for that last firm that is supposedly the root of all evil and I do have an opinion, but that's only based on what I saw and experienced at the time. I'd like to express that but I'm sure some of you will already be forming an opinion on my thoughts before you've even read them. Firstly there's something that you should know about me, I was trained by Canadian Pacific Airlines and worked in YVR until I was laid-off, went to work for PWA was laid-off, was hired by Air Canada YWG in 1985 and left Air Canada in 86 to return to CP AIR. That was not an easy decision as Air Canada at that time was a better employer. My leaving had everything to do with that 6 month prairie winter, and even then it was a hard choice to leave a good company. I then went through all the mergers, and then finally the MOA mergers. My career if it could be called that, resembled the game of snakes and ladders, whenever a merge came I hit a snake, but somehow I learned to accept it because it had been done by the numbers somewhat. At the time of the Canadian-Air Canada welding I was a technical instructor and as that position was deemed to a management position with the stroke of a pen I was no longer a Bro. That decision would later be ruled on by the labour board and reversed, thus I eventually returned to my union.
It was during this period that I was removed from training and placed into a few projects that enabled me to see inner workings of Air Canada. I couldn’t believe the difference from the outside image to the inside reality and I was shocked as I believed in the thought that this firm was simply superior. Many may have been led to believe that AC was well run but that's in stark contrast to what I saw. The AC that took over Canadian was not the AC that I had left. It was obvious to me that the problems we see today were well under way before Canadian, but I'll also agree the merger didn't help. I think the true health of Air Canada at that time was kept from employees, no different from AC’s tried and true M.O. now. Now I really don't care whether you choose to consider my spin on the merge because to me that's the past, but I’ll suggest that we get over it. If you choose to partake in twist history and want to take shots at each other go ahead but it won't solve anything now.
The big problem is now, it's the same problem we have had for some time, poorly run and inefficient. Our managers are not managers, in fact at most companies they would be classified as clerks. The inability to manage is evident in the manner in which they fill their ranks. The company does not value experience, would rather give a title than give money and fails to learn by their mistakes. There’s no communication between departments, no cooperation and there’s a total disconnect between the boiler room, the upper decks and the helm. Yes in fact it was as if we were still talking about and working for a company from the Victorian period.
Let’s face it Air Canada’s attitude has put it on the backside of the power curve and there needs to be a correction while there's still time. Their red sticker approach to the workplace has frustrated employees to the point that a bad AC employee is one that still cares. Fortunately those employees still understand that we need to treat every customer well in spite of the roadblocks the company has put in our way.
To have a chance at surviving we need to:
Wean the managers off the crack conference calls. Plan to plan rather than have a plan after the reaction. Management need to understand that they work with us, their primary task is to provide us with the tools that we need to do our jobs. Provide tools that work rather than provide tools that are cheap. Clean up processes that are band-aid fixes. Simplify the operation with multitasking and provide effective training to implement change.
The top side of this company needs a chop and a half. The bottom side (me) needs to generate more income (contracts) and management has to look at contracts for what they are, income rather than a loss of manpower.
I’d like to know what other items should be placed on this list, so if anyone has something fire away. I’d rather carry on working, as now I have enough experience to make my job enjoyable. No doubt there are many of us in the same camp. I’m still smoking inside over the how our livelihood has been threatened by those in charge when those individuals are quick to blame everyone but themselves. Good luck everyone.