Air Tanker Activity

[Flybabe]

I don't even know how to respond to that...

Ask THIS gal how it worked out for her:

Colorado, 2002. Terry Lynn Barton, a U.S. Forest Service worker in Colorado, tried to burn a handful of letters from her estranged husband, but ran into a few problems. First, she set fire to love lost in an area where campfires had been outlawed due to drought -- something a U.S. Forest Service worker, someone who enforces the no-fire ban, ought to know. This lead to the largest wildfire in Colorado state history -- now known as the "Hayman Fires" -- burning through 210 square miles of Pike National Forest, killing five firefighters, and causing nearly $40-million in damages. She was later indited on charges of "willfully and maliciously destroying U.S. property and causing personal injury by setting a blaze that has grown into a wildfire of historic proportions," and authorities believe the love letter story covered up other reasons for deliberately starting the blaze. She eventually pleaded guilty to arson, and is now serving 12 years in jail.

http://www.gadling.com/2007/06/12/five- ... est-fires/

It's not all about the tankers. It's also (and MORE so) about the people on the ground. Would YOU risk their lives?

[A2G]

I was obviously kidding about setting fires....

[fire flyer]

I guess BC is the only hot spot this year. Zero going on in Alberta and all points east from what I here. Yukon lads are still into it with an extra Convair in town. Alaska has extended one Convair and the other one went directly to work in BC after departing Alaska. Some guests lending a hand in BC including Sask Convairs and Commander, Alberta FireBoss Convair and Caravan, New Brunswick AT802s, Couple of Ontario 415s plus Conairs spare DC-6/Commander/Aerostar and AirSprays two spare L-188. Two weeks of 6-10 hr days and no end in sight...well it will snow sometime.

FF

[CLguy]

Still busy in Alaska! They have brought in 5 extra CL-215's to assist the 2 that are on contract up there. A Saskatchewan Convair 580 arrived there yesterday as well. I think it is to backfill for the Conair 580 that is waiting an engine change in Fairbanks.

[Cat Driver]

Still busy in Alaska! They have brought in 5 extra CL-215's to assist the 2 that are on contract up there.

Alaska sure doesn't know much about choosing air attack aircraft.

Had they only talked to the experts in the B.C. Forest Service about this they would not have wasted all that time and money on CL-215's.

The CL-215's are no good in the mountains and if they plan on scooping water with them they obviously don't understand that water is no good for fire suppression.

[Just Duckie]

Now that's funny Cat! I had the head Federal guy tell me that very thing while walking in downtown Nome back in '04. He said that they had a manual stating that scoopers were not effective and a waste of money. He also apologized for their ignorance and misunderstanding as how to best use scoopers and stated that in fact, we were very effective. (this was after several fires were beat up)
He went on to say that Crow really didn't taste that bad! and he became a strong supporter of "Ducks" after that day.

[Cat Driver]

Now that's funny Cat!

Yes in a way it is funny but sadly it is true that there are people working for the taxpayers who force such nonsense into the decision making on how to fight fires.

I can understand that they come from the flawed end of the gene pool but what baffles me is how they not only get into positions of final decision making but they actually stay there. Is it because the general population just don't have the time to stop and examine these organizations?

In the thread I started about using the Fire Boss I wrote this.

I listened to a B.C. Forest Air Attack Officer on the radio last week make the statement that he was the expert on how to fight fires and the pilots and ground crews were just assets he used. He went on to say how he was the expert on fire behavior and how to deliver retardant / water to the fire.

Amazing statement.

Even the pilot population do not seem to be concerned that that attitude exists, doesn't anyone besides me think that that kind of arrogance is something to worry about....he could well rise to be in charge of air attack and some of you would be working under his control.

[CLguy]

Seems kind of funny how Alaska was so down on scoopers for so many years and yet since we were there in 2004 they have never been without scoopers during the fire season. Maybe BC could learn something from Alaska!!!!

Cat I have ran into a few of those types you describe over the years and no doubt there are some in the birddogging game that have themselves a little too high on the pedestal. I have seen a lot of tankers knock down a lot of fires over the years without any birddog around but I am yet to see a birddog knock down any fire without a tanker around. Seems a few tend to forget this from time to time!!!

[Cat Driver]

I have seen a lot of tankers knock down a lot of fires over the years without any birddog around but I am yet to see a birddog knock down any fire without a tanker around. Seems a few tend to forget this from time to time!!!

Exactly, unfortunately regardless of how they interact with the aircrews the bird dog officers or what ever they call them self's now can be as arrogant as they want as that is just the way the system works.

They demand excellent " interpersonal skills " from everyone else but ignore those within their own ranks who are almost impossible to be around.

I wonder if that B.C. Forest guy who was interviewed on the radio last week and figures he is the end all and be all of fire suppression reads Avcanada?

[CLguy]

Fortunately for us, they are the exception and not the rule! For the most part I have worked with and still do work with some great guys who I would go to the wall for and look forward to having a beer with at the end of the day. Seems every now and then we seem to come across a chest beater but I am at the point in my career that usually I just ignore them and figure out a way to bypass them. These ones are usually the least secure and least comfortable in the position and probably grew up having their lunch money stolen in the school yard so you kind of end up feeling sorry for them. Down this way they get weeded out pretty quick!!

[threepoint]

I have seen a lot of tankers knock down a lot of fires over the years without any birddog around but I am yet to see a birddog knock down any fire without a tanker around. Seems a few tend to forget this from time to time!!!

Exactly, unfortunately regardless of how they interact with the aircrews the bird dog officers or what ever they call them self's now can be as arrogant as they want as that is just the way the system works.

They demand excellent " interpersonal skills " from everyone else but ignore those within their own ranks who are almost impossible to be around.

I wonder if that B.C. Forest guy who was interviewed on the radio last week and figures he is the end all and be all of fire suppression reads Avcanada?

Alright...time to jump in here. I know the BCFS AAO you guys are disparaging and he's not only very good at his job, he recognizes exactly how valuable his pilots are. And y'know what? His pilots love him. He is very well-respected in the industry; those of you making character assassinations have obviously never met the guy and have failed to understand how innocuous statements made during a media interview have a way of morphing your words into something never intended.
This particular AAO has spent thousands of hours and is in his third decade of bombing fires across three countries on this continent using retardant and scooper aircraft. He's worked further north and further south in NA than any single one of you has. Believe me, although not a licensed pilot, he knows more about aerial delivery of product than many of the newer pilots delivering it. He regularly asks for and willingly accepts advice from pilots he works with. He and his birddog pilot spend infinitely more time getting thrown around in hot, smoky, turbulent low-level conditions than any given airtanker pilot, bar none. The cockpit workload he shares and the tactical & financial consequences of his decision-making exceeds that of any airtanker crew yet he gets paid less.

Pilots, planes, crews and even AAOs are indeed assets to be used, directed, diverted and assessed. Sometimes those assessments are critical, and deservedly so. No matter how many litres of water or mud you lay down on a fire, never let your head swell to the point where you think you're putting the fire out.

I hope he does read AvCanada, so that he knows that I'm proud to work with him and call him a colleague and that his team of loaders, engineers and pilots appreciates his exceptional work.

[Cat Driver]

He is very well-respected in the industry; those of you making character assassinations have obviously never met the guy and have failed to understand how innocuous statements made during a media interview have a way of morphing your words into something never intended.

That is true, one can say things in an interview that may sound different than one means.

In that I was the one to bring up his interview I was only commenting on his delivery and the way it came across...by the way it was someone else who was listening to the radio at the time who commented on the interview and thought that the AAO was making it sound like without him the job could not be done.

With a position comes the necessity of being careful how one comes across....but you are probably correct he just did not mean it to sound that way.

He's worked further north and further south in NA than any single one of you has.

Really? How did you come to that conclusion?

I have flown aerial suppression from Norman Wells N.W.T. to south of Concepcion Chile. Fires are seldom worked on further north or south than that.

[threepoint]

Really? How did you come to that conclusion?

I have flown aerial suppression from Norman Wells N.W.T. to south of Concepcion Chile. Fires are seldom worked on further north or south than that.

Ah, you have reorganized the continents to include Chile in North America. And he has you beat to the north by three degrees of latitude, sir.

"Quote: He's worked further north and further south in NA than any single one of you has."

[Cat Driver]

Oh Boy, this forum sure brings out the best in the business when it comes to obfuscating a subject with irrelevant nonsense.

I had a look at all your posts threepoint to see if I could get a feel for your background and the closest I can come is you are relatively new to aviation.

So lets go back to the issues you raised.

Ah, you have reorganized the continents to include Chile in North America. And he has you beat to the north by three degrees of latitude, sir.

What exactly was your point in bringing up such a infantile comparison in the first place, so he has sat in the right seat of an airplane as a passenger directing air tankers three degrees of latitude further north than I have worked an air tanker.

Just how does that change the comments that CLGuy and I have made?

This particular AAO has spent thousands of hours and is in his third decade of bombing fires across three countries on this continent using retardant and scooper aircraft. He's worked further north and further south in NA than any single one of you has. Believe me, although not a licensed pilot, he knows more about aerial delivery of product than many of the newer pilots delivering it.

Fact:

An experienced air tanker pilot does not need an AAO to lead him by the hand to be effective in fire suppression....CLGuy is one of the highest time tanker pilots on earth and his opinion is correct as far as I am concerned.

It is commendable you have supported this individual, however that does not change the fact that he came across as arrogant and self important in his radio interview.

Remember people will form opinions based on the words used when listening to an interview.

I formed the opinion that I posted here based on his words.

[CLguy]

he recognizes exactly how valuable his pilots are.

I rest my case!!!

Well Cat I have you beat both to the North and the South so do I win!!! Oh I forgot it is an Air Attack Officer I am competing with!

[Cat Driver]

Quote:
he recognizes exactly how valuable his pilots are.

I rest my case!!!

Maybe this newer generation like to be thought of as possessions and it gives them a feeling of being needed?

So tell me threepoint if one of the B.C. tanker pilots were to find them self's working a fire without their owner there to lead them who would they belong to?

Well Cat I have you beat both to the North and the South so do I win!!!

Hey life is not fair CLGuy, I chose to leave the fire suppression business after fifteen years in it and you got ahead of me.

Oh I forgot it is an Air Attack Officer I am competing with!

Here is the interesting part of this conversation, if you were to change jobs who would be best able to do both?

[Driving Rain]

Here is the interesting part of this conversation, if you were to change jobs who would be best able to do both?

I've done both. I think CLGuy likes me as tanker pilot although I've never asked him why.
For some strange reason our interpersonal relationship improved after he was no longer one of my pilots. Go figure?

I would love to Lone Wolf a fire with a Bird Dog just so I could sign in on this forum as Lone Dog Bird Wolf or Lone Bird Wolf Dog or ...never mind It'll happen one day mark my words. When the puzzle palace gets buzy there's some strange orders emitted by radio waves.

[bigredone]

Yet another good thread hijacked by the ramblings of the same nattering fools. So long subject matter, I new thee well.

[Driving Rain]

This

Yet another good thread hijacked by the ramblings of the same nattering fools. So long subject matter, I new thee well.

from a guy who said this

They fly real tankers, not those things that piddle on fires and raise the humidity.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=32878&p=319014#p319014

[threepoint]

Gentlemen (Cat Driver and CLGuy),

I'm not going to descend into personal attacks. I merely came to the defense of a very good Air Attack Officer that you both disparaged without ever having met him. I illustrated his experience in all areas of the country (and beyond) with literally all types of airtanker that have seen action in the three decades of his career to date. You have taken the third-hand comments of a fellow forum member who made mention of one paraphrased comment made in one interview (did you actually listen to the interview?) and jumped to some pretty unfair conclusions about his ability, his character and his attitude with his coworkers.
I have many observations about the sort of people who post here and realize very little is as it may seem. Sure, Cat Driver, I am new to aviation and fires. It's been over 20 years - a mere eyeblink of a career. I'm good enough to speak with authority on both subjects. I'm smart enough to realize I can learn from anybody and that it's OK to ask questions. I have never drawn a divide between AAOs and pilots, which is evidently a sore topic for some.
The comments that an AAO is a "passenger" indicate that the concepts of CRM have escaped some people. While not physically manipulating the controls of the airplane, the AAO is deemed an essential crew member in the eyes of the contracting agency, the aircraft operators and Transport Canada. You may sniff at the idea of a non-licensed person in the front seat of a plane being called such; that's your hurdle to cross. I have seen first-hand the effects of a pilot in busy circumstances trying to fly a plane, fight the fire and direct the airtankers at the same time. It's a hell of a workload, and often it isn't pretty. Just like a two-person crew in a larger airplane, the teamwork involved ensures a smooth operation from initial dispatch to parking at the end of the day.
AAOs are not there to lead airtanker pilots by the hand (your words), but to direct the most effective & efficient strategies for achieving the desired results. They are there to ensure safety and manage the airspace in which you fly. Can an airtanker crew bomb fires without an AAO? Sure, they can get away with it for a while. But sooner or later - be prepared for some horrendous stats in terms of escaped fires, increased incidents and accidents.
Perhaps your aerial suppression career in other provinces has resulted in many personality clashes between yourselves and coworkers. Don't make the mistake of transferring your unfortunate experiences to the rest of us who work together, play together and remain friends on and off the tanker bases. There are great AAOs and ridiculous ones. The same can be said of pilots. Unless you have very specific examples based upon personal first-hand knowledge, may I respectfully suggest you don't lump all the members of either group together in a given category. It simply creates animosity and imperils one's credibility on a public forum.

Thanks guys.

[Cat Driver]

Threepoint, you have made your point and we get the message.

For your information B.C. is not unique for having a cohesive group I have known some of the tanker pilots such as CLGuy and Driving rain for around forty years and we never had any personality problems.

The comments that an AAO is a "passenger" indicate that the concepts of CRM have escaped some people.

There you go you are doing the same thing you accuse us of, making broad demeaning statements without knowing the people you are accusing of being unprofessional.

But sooner or later - be prepared for some horrendous stats in terms of escaped fires, increased incidents and accidents.

As I understand it Newfoundland still works fires without an AAO how horrendous are their stats?

[Driving Rain]

Sure, Cat Driver, I am new to aviation and fires. It's been over 20 years - a mere eyeblink of a career.

Hmm, let's play devil's advocate. Consider me if you will. I am a 600-hour wonder. I know just enough about flying that I can easily get myself into trouble. The good thing is that I have a keen sense of that impending trouble and manage to avoid it before something bad happens. In other words, I exercise common sense. Good for me, so what?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16361&p=163801#p163801

In 2006 you had 600 hours. That post of yours is about 3 years old. Are you an AAO in BC then?

[threepoint]

For your information B.C. is not unique for having a cohesive group I have known some of the tanker pilots such as CLGuy and Driving rain for around forty years and we never had any personality problems.

You're absolutely correct and I never implied that cohesiveness was unique to BC or anywhere else. However, Cat Driver's comments in particular indicate that he does not harbour a very high opinion of air attack officers.

There you go you are doing the same thing you accuse us of, making broad demeaning statements without knowing the people you are accusing of being unprofessional.

If you feel an AAO is a passenger, then yes, the CRM concept hasn't been fully utilized. It's not demeaning to disagree with you - it's an observation. One can be professional without subscribing to the principles of CRM.

Funny how the level of righteousness can escalate when one's scathing comments about an industry peer are disputed. Perhaps thou shalt not have disparaged the individual in the first place? Nor should you be surprised when you face resistance following such helpful comments as you made:

unfortunately regardless of how they interact with the aircrews the bird dog officers or what ever they call them self's now can be as arrogant as they want as that is just the way the system works.

I can understand that they come from the flawed end of the gene pool

Seriously Sir, what did you expect?

[302sc]

You slow guys just need to go set some fires!!

Seriously tho, I wonder if any fire pilots have ever? Do police ever investigate pilots for fires?

I do not remember ever seeing a cop asking if any tanker pilot were involved in setting fires ..it is so ludicrous the thread should be axed right there..

[iflyforpie]

What is funny is the actions recommended by different people seeing the fire.

Spot, Rank 2, 500m from a road, level ground, no interface.

Patrol plane: Recommendations are an IA crew drive out.

Helicopter: Recommendations are IA crew with a hover exit and bucket action.

Bird Dog: Tanker action and IA crew to mop up once we are done.