Sunwest

[Brown Bear]

Any idiot can get a pilot's license and and I think we have all flown with one or two, so if it was your airplane would you not want to know that the person you hired straight out of flight school (and not long out of dipers) had the brains to treat your aircraft and your customers with common sense and not get anyone killed or sued.

WTF is a diper????
Gee, you could interview the guy??? You could check refs?? But, my guess is YOU would rather see how they load freight? Every other profession hires from colleges and universities. To do jobs one Hell of a lot more complicated than warm the right seat in a 'ho.

[V1 Rotate]

Any idiot can get a pilot's license

[quote=
and and I think we have all flown with one or two, so if it was your airplane would you not want to know that the person you hired straight out of flight school (and not long out of dipers) had the brains to treat your aircraft and your customers with common sense and not get anyone killed or sued.



Looks like by the above, that indeed is true.

[petey]

Every other profession hires from colleges and universities.

And once again ... wrong.

[Lurch]

I wanted to comment on this when it was posted but I was locked out by some server glitch. So it has been slightly addressed.

Telling people they are "ok" because they have a CPL (not like 2500 other people dont) and its ok to be "self deserving" and not have to show somebody that they have any work ethic or are compatible with said company or that they are worthwhile employing whatsoever... is retarded.. what is wrong with new people?.... if you want a job with me. show up willing to throw a bag, swing a hammer or at least show me you're worth the investment i put into you.... Keep your word too.


edit by Lil to remove reference to deleted posts and some profanity

What happened to the long lost art of the job interview?

You know spend a reasonable amount of time during the interview to get a rough idea of what the candidate seems to think they are worth and maybe find out if they are blowing smoke up your a**.

How about put them in a plane and take them for a flight? You know, see how good they really are.

Do you make 1000 hour applicants work the ramp before they get to fly?

If not, why? maybe they are lazy idiots who haven't bent medal only because they were lucky. Maybe the ex-employer is happy to see them leave because they are idiots, I've seen this quite a few times.

Call the applicants instructors, CFI's, ex-employers even if they are outside of aviation. This should give you a real good idea of how their attitude is. Forget references, they are people who are willing to say good things anyway. I have flown with a few pilots who were good at the sale but when it comes down to it just lazy and don't want to put in the extra effort, oddly enough everyone who worked with them knew this, but would future employers call and ask?

I have known a few pilots who were down right dangerous, broke the law more then a few times, flew in weather that the plane wasn't legally allowed to fly, and the "professionals" would avoid, see severe ice and not known ice equipped. flying without flight critical equipment. This was known by more then a few pilots but a major company hires them.

Maybe if employers spent more time researching and did a good back ground check we wouldn't have to put them on the ramp to prove they can work long hours, for little pay, while being treated like crap, and still smile while the kiss the Cp's a**. ( Yes I know not every company is like this, so don't yell at me and tell me you're not one of them)



Lurch

[brokenwing]

I agree with you, I was just saying that in the real world, not everybody gets a chance to jump right into a seat, and the a little hard work and positive attitude go a long way. And I wasn't trying to say ramping is the be all end all. Everyone where i work, from the lowest time person right up to the CP all do extra stuff around the base. I didn't mean to sound so abrasive. But I think some people feel a little too self deserving and don't want to work for a living.

[privateer]

Brokenwing, I couldn't agree with you more. Just a little hard work on the side never hurt anyone. I think Sunwest has an excellent program. No they can't hire 15 or 20 guys for the Ramp/FO all at once, but when people get through it with some hours they can move on and start flying a King Air or Metro. This will let more people through the Navajo eventually but it just takes some time.

[Flyboy_high]

I like how the ones with lots of time in their books and a salary are the ones criticizing the others for taking a crappy job. Yes it is unfortunate. Yes the industry takes advantage of us. Yes it is unfair. Yes something should be done. Could you organize a national all CPL rated pilots to go on strike? Until then the industry will not change its ways. ONLY we pilots will change the industry, not the other way around. Stop beating on the low timer while they are looking for work, if you had student debt and no flight employment then a possible ramp job would be your next best bet. To hate on the low timers, it sickens me to the core some of you!


Just plug your way though the start because it does get better as you go along!
P.S. This entire page is off topic and has nothing to do with sunwest.

[shannon]

Sunwest is a great spot in many ways and their equipment is maintained at an exemplary level. The level of safety their is second to none, they have decent pay and you don't have to live in some northern hole. You can actually have a life. There are definitely places where you can go "direct" faster, and if that is the priority, than thats ok, but that doesn't change the fact that Sunwest is one of the really great companies for pilots out there and you can build your career around that company.

[co-joe]

The SW company philosophy has changed quite a few times over the years on this subject. As soon as a new CP starts (every 2 years or so) they do another about face on the subject. Maybe right now it's the norm, but only a few years ago one of their current metro pilots had been on the ramp for over a year and was the victim of this change. He had to quit and go get some time elsewhere before coming back and being given a pilot's seat.

As far as career progression you'll do much better in the long run, if you go north and come to SW with some PIC time under your belt. That Contrail hurdle is a huge one and as previously mentioned there are a ton of captains there who have either been turned down by the airlines, or have decided no to go, so vertical progression can take years and years in good times.

So out of curiosity, has SW hired back their lay offs yet?

[slowstream]

That would be a big "NOPE"

[Sam300]

What are things looking like for hiring this winter? I expect the ones laid off have first chance.

[slowstream]

So out of curiosity, has SW hired back their lay offs yet?

So I was informed that they did hire some back............... but that person neglected to answer your question, not sure why.

I would suggest go and talk to some of the guys around there for a more accurate answer

See Privateer, now that wasn't so hard to do

[avionicsdude]

Brown Bear,
Name just one company that will put a newly minted ,off the street, commercial pilot in the right seat of their twin turboprop. Walking into a single piston pounder job is still possible, but if the FNG wants to skip the single and get into the multi-turbine two crew enviorment, then the only way is to work the ramp/dock for the operator prior to your check out. Your living in denial if you think that will ever change.

I'll field that one......JAZZ! Right out of Seneca into the right seat of a JET!
Your turn.

Brown Bear, You were "lucky" to get the right seat at Jazz!!! I work for the Seneca up at Buttonville (but not as an instructor) and I have seen many students come and go and 99.99% of your fellow graduates as well as your current colleagues had to bust their chops!!! I also say lucky because not all the jazz recipients deserved that seat!!! I am sure you did tho ......

[Brown Bear]

Brown Bear, You were "lucky" to get the right seat at Jazz!!! I work for the Seneca up at Buttonville (but not as an instructor) and I have seen many students come and go and 99.99% of your fellow graduates as well as your current colleagues had to bust their chops!!! I also say lucky because not all the jazz recipients deserved that seat!!! I am sure you did tho ......

Did I say I went to Seneca? Nope, don't think I did....
Did I say I was at Jazz? Nope, don't think I did.....

[zentenza]

We are all pilots so everybody have to respect everybody.
Personally i understand brown bears point of view ...
He didn't insult anybody. But you did !
when you become a doctor, one day you will have to do a surgery and you get your first job nobody ask you to clean the hospital.
You did studies and pass you exams and got your diploma. that is enough to begin to perform your job.
The rest of experience comes with the. the more you work in your domain the more you improve your skills.

And apparently in aviation this is not the same.
for me it is question of money : companies don t like to pay ... they like only benefits. especially in aviation.
Someone used the word "realistic".
If there was solidarity between pilots things would be different (probably).
I tried to send many resume ; no answers, or insulting letters !
when I get someone on the phone he laugh, and i m pretty sure he is a pilot him self.

If someone can tell me in what working on the ram makes become a better pilot for a company ?
If the argument is good enough i will apply to do slave work immediately.

thank you.

[Koizie1]

GOD I`m so sick of hearing people moan about how they have licenses so why should they work the ramp, just because you go to acting school and pass this does not mean you become a movie star regardless of how good you are. How many people with art/music degrees are artists or musicians? How many people with law degrees are lawyers? Not as many as you might think, comparing doctors with pilots is hilarious. How many doctors become surgeons, very few.

If you don`t want to get your hands dirty and think you are too good to work on a ramp, WHY should anyone hire you? The guys working the ramps, docks etc are not the ones complaining, but when jobs come up they are the ones that are getting them and they deserve to get them.

No one said life is fair or easy except maybe your mummy, I know very few pilots that haven`t done ramp, dock, office time for an aviation company. Instructors excepted. If you dont like it, go get a law degree and see how easy it is to become a lawyer.

Grrrrrrrr......

[zentenza]

hello,

fisrt i only gave my opinion. But are you adult enough to accept others opinion. That is something basic in conversation, I never made a judgment about any jobs, or people doing these jobs.

It seems that you love to giving lessons. I did enough jobs in my life and i will never I dirty my hand. I probably did jobs that you will never do.
I can same thing with any job. And i repeat again. There isn t any job in my knowledge that emplyer ask you to something not related with you your job.
"Surjeon " was an example. just to show the incoherence of the thing, that s it !
Also, that you for your advices, but you don t know what kind of studies i did. I never said that life shoud be easy ! by the way, why not, If it can be ?
If you find a way that you life can be easier don t you go that way ? this is human, no ?

finally, I m not complaining, I m just exposing facts.
I agree with you, that situation is like that now, but it wasn t always ... i could be changed ...
Of course if everybidy thinks like things are going to stay like that.

thank you for your opinion. and good luck for you projects

[merlin]

Its really simple! There just isnt enough flying jobs for all the poeple that want to be pilots. The only way to fix this would be to limit the number of poeple in training.... which is not going to happen.

The people getting the flying job without working the ramp are the people willing to go the where ever they have to to find it and fly what ever is offered(or that know someone). Some people choose to work the ramp.... not my choice, but if it works for them, why should i care?

[Doc]

GOD I`m so sick of hearing people moan about how they have licenses so why should they work the ramp, just because you go to acting school and pass this does not mean you become a movie star regardless of how good you are. How many people with art/music degrees are artists or musicians? How many people with law degrees are lawyers? Not as many as you might think, comparing doctors with pilots is hilarious. How many doctors become surgeons, very few.

If you don`t want to get your hands dirty and think you are too good to work on a ramp, WHY should anyone hire you? The guys working the ramps, docks etc are not the ones complaining, but when jobs come up they are the ones that are getting them and they deserve to get them.

No one said life is fair or easy except maybe your mummy, I know very few pilots that haven`t done ramp, dock, office time for an aviation company. Instructors excepted. If you dont like it, go get a law degree and see how easy it is to become a lawyer.

Grrrrrrrr......

This is the attitude held by so many, who know so little. It's the "I worked the ramp, so everybody else should have to........."
More like..."I was dumb enough to be a slave, so everybody else should be, as well..."
Name ONE other industry that treats new people like this one? One. These new pilots are not there to do your bidding. They've spent big bucks to get there. And, they've got licenses issued by the governing body to be Commercial Pilots. If you can find the words "subservient", "slave", "dock boy" anywhere on that $30,000 document, I'd sure like to see a copy.
Terms like "willing to get their hands dirty...." have absolutely NO bearing on one's ability to perform the duties they have been trained to do.

[shannon]

So Doc whats your answer for all those who have yet to start that crucial first flying job, what course of action do you suggest to those who know so little.

[Captain_Canuck]

Who gives a red rats ass.

Aviation is the most retarded but yet most interesting industry in the world. We have devalued our own worth. Its true!! There is always someone willing to shove a knife in some one else's back to get that "break". There is always and will always be someone willing to work in an aviation company "to gain experience" that will help them move on to the flight line. This is how it is and will always be. PERIOD. Unless...you a) live in India and can go and fly a 737 with 250 hrs b) are in some graduated program in Europe or c) for a perfect circle with your mouth!!!

Who cares.......

[Doc]

I'll answer a question with a question. If you had just finished law school (just an example.....not comparing law school to flight school) would you work in the parking lot of the law firm for an indeterminate amount of time, washing the lawyer's cars, shoveling snow, cutting their grass, weeding their gardens, babysit their kids, just because they would hire you to do so? No. Even if it might lead to a position with the firm? Probably not. Why? Because it's not what you spent many thousands of dollars training to do. You got an education to be a lawyer. And while there ARE lawyers doing other, perhaps more, shall we say, demeaning work, it isn't with a law firm. Because they are "professional". Something, we'll never be, as an industry. Why? Because we (as an industry) are willing to eat shit, just to get ahead. We (again, as an industry) have no pride.
Without a moments hesitation, if I were starting out.......I'd do something else until something (a flying job) came up.
This, and buying jobs, are, as you know, my pet peeves. Nobody else does it! Why do we???

And, I've left the building on the subject....till next time...

[raven54]

More like..."I was dumb enough to be a slave, so everybody else should be, as well..."

Well Doc, gotta respond to this one. I sure as shit didn't want to work the dock. I mailed oddles of resumes out, had no interest in instructing, and the only gig I landed was the ramp. I actually enjoyed my time there, believe it or not. It was a great schedule working with great people.

So are you calling me dumb? Are you calling my friends and former coworkers, spread out all over the country and the world flying everything imaginable, dumb as well? If so, I might be inclined to take offense. Cheers.

[merlin]

I have a question. There is not enough positions to give everyone a flying job, so if they cant work the ramp what should they do? Work at McDick till someone offers them a spot?

For the record I dont think you should have to work the ramp, and never did myself. I do however understand why poeple do.

[petey]

..."I was dumb enough to be a slave, so everybody else should be, as well..."

Pretty sure the ramp pays more than slavery...

Nice try though.