First Saudi Female Pilot

[ahramin]

Sorry Briddog, the name calling was not from you it was from the guy you were defending. But regardless it all stands.

Good one on the sand dunes, though you are right a lot of people would not find that funny. I laughed.

DA900 for cool airplanes i guess the highlights would be the Duo Discus, the DG-800, the 300 HP custom built F1 Rocket, and the office (BE20). Those are about the coolest aircraft i have flown.






Forgot the extra 300.

[...]

Alright ahramin...you're ok in my books. Did not even flinch or bite!?!?

I think I will retire this name "I am Birddog" because it's getting old and too many of you clowns know who I am anway!!!

Lemme sleep on it first....

Ruff!

[Panama Jack]

Hey Jack:

I don't recall saying that pilots in this country were any good. If i did then please show me where.

You ask me what the point was. If you do not get the point, why do you then make assumptions about it? You are quite right that this accident sounds like something in Canada. Where do you think i got it from? Hint: I can read English but not Arabic. The point lies in the difference between how an accident report here would normally read and how this one reads. Can you spot the difference? Permit me to explain for you sir:

The pilots do a whole bunch of things wrong, just like many accidents here there or anywhere in the world. The difference is in the next bit, where the report reads Findings as to Causes and Contributing Factors. At this point a TSB report would outline why it thought the crash happened, but in the one i wrote above, they do not. This was a pun on the fact that whenever anything happens over there, the prescribed response is Insh Allah. The reason for this accident is God's Will.

Perhaps you have never had any exposure to this culture and have no idea how ingrained is the idea that everything that happens is directly God's Will. If this is the case then i can hardly blame you for not understanding the joke.

However i would plead with you sir to be a little more polite and not call people racist and moronic because they write something that you do not understand or agree with. Surely we can express an opinion or make a joke here without fearing personal attacks because of it.

And yes it is possible that she gets hired by a saudi outfit. Unless of course she commits adultery between now and then. In which case she will be tied to a pole and people will throw rocks at her for an hour or so until she is dead. No penalty for the man involved though. Yes there is a great deal of progress going on in this part of the world. So much so that female circumcision is becoming more popular, not less.

And before you jump up and say that this problem is growing in the US as well allow me to pre-emptively point out that that does not make it a good thing.

We are talking about a country where women are the property of thier husband or father. Who have no say even in the clothes they wear. There hopefully will be some captains there who will be able to let Hanadi be a part of the crew. But if you think that CRM courses will convince most let alone all of them to listen to a woman i must humbly disagree.

ahramin

Good day Ahramin, and as sala'am alaykum (peace be upon you)

First and formost, I owe you an apology. Yes, I did misread the intent of your scenario accident report. Allow me also to say that on the whole I enjoy reading your comments-- I consider you to be a very eloquent and intelligent individual.

I feel that have more than a superficial exposure or understanding of the culture we are discussing, which is the reason for my position.

Ever notice though, seemingly every time a politician makes a joke or tries to be funny it hits the headlines (the mayor of Toronto's joke about being in a bubbling pot with natives dancing around, Mrs. Clinton's joke about Ghandi having worked at a 7-11, etc.) Any jokes about other people's religions or cultures can easily cause offence. While I was not personally offended by the comments in this forum, I don't think that any of my muslim friends would have seen the humor in this, especially in critique of a cultural expression as common or as widely misunderstood as "Inshallah." While we might have the opportunity to have a good chuckle over this, remember that this is a public forum. I would be embarrassed for someone of the muslim religion or of middle eastern origin, not knowing otherwise what a bunch of good old chaps you guys are, to see these types of "jokes" and form their opinions. I've had one foreign friend shock me by telling me that from the Canadians he had met til that point that he thought that, on the whole, Canadians were quite racist!!! Is that what we really are??? Worldwide, we are times of new threats, and I feel that these types of comments do little to help us understand each other better and to get along, something we all need to be a little more conscious of in these dangerous times. It is a bit like making jokes about bombs, guns, or terrorism in an airport.

I agree with you that CRM is not the solution to the type of problem Ms. Hanadi will face. What I tried to point out (although probably not very well) is that her problems of changing perceptions will be part of the evolution of aviation and culture, just like CRM was for us in the Americas. In Saudi Arabia there are female doctors and even heard that there was a lawyer-- that part of the world is one going dramatic transitions. But then again, North America went though something like this in the 20th century. World War II meant that women had to work in factories and universal suffrage all came to be within the last 100 years of our country's history. Some countries are more "ahead" in these areas than others. There is also some ingrained resistance in others-- as they try to maintain some semblance of control and their own cultural values. While most people there admire the West and wish to adopt some of the values, there are aspects they don't like (and often identify with the West) and that we in the West ourselves regard as problematic: widespread drug abuse, violent crime, the disintegration of the family, lack of sense of community, teenage pregnancies and rampant consumerism. So any change, happens slowly, and needs to at least appear to be a "homemade" solution.

They certainly have household problems like we do. Yet I doubt that we would appreciate for Saudis or other foreigners to critique or mock some of the issues in our lives, our culture, or traditions.

The biggest thing that annoys me is what often comes off as arrogance or smug superiority in comments-- and no, ahramin, I am not targeting you specifically when I say this. The type of comments I hear seem to revolve around the theme of "they (whoever "they is at the moment)should all learn English, do away with their religion and values, adopt a political system like ours and learn to be like us so that they can live better, happier lives, have an SUV or two and live in the suburbs."

I believe that the solutions in the future revolve around trying to understand other peoples better and respecting their feelings and differences. In short, doing away with the "us and them" attitudes. So, if I have offended you ahramin, believe me that this is not my intention and that I have my short fuses too from time to time.

As a closing thought, saw a picture of a mural painted in Mexico. I believe it was Benito Juarez who said "Respetar los derechos ajenos es la paz." (Respect for the rights of others is peace).

P.S. I like the picture of your glider-- very cool aircraft.

[Cat Driver]

Panama:

Very eloquent post Jack, as usual you have very valid pionts and beyond doubt you are a travelled and learned man.

However with due respect may I flip the coin for a moment and examine our North American culture for a moment.

I have noticed over the last couple of decades that our society is being brainwashed into a "victim" mentality with the rapier like retort from a vocal few that any mention of "differences" when discussing other cultures makes you a "RACIST" .

Quite frankly I feel offended by such unfounded accusations made without any examination of the intent behind a comment.

Like you I am a travelled man and I can assure you that "racism" is alive and well in every culture on the planet and is part of human nature.

Before I put foward my thoughts on the painting without proof of someone being "racist" allow me to explain that this not aimed at you, because I have not seen you exibit this trait.

Anyone who calls me a "racist" can go f..k themselves.

There that should about cover that one from my perspective.

Cat Driver:

[...]

Cat.....you said the F word!!!

I wish everyone could travel around the globe to understand this as well. It really don't matter much where you're from....With the world becoming smaller with airline travel.....cultures are brought closer by this. Isn't it curious that the biggest biggots are the ones that never travel anywhere and have never seen anything othern than the local drinking hole?!?!

I have friends that consider Montreal a great traveling distance just as I would when I once flew to 'Jo-Berg' South Africa!!!

All a matter exposure I guess!!!

Ruff!!

[Cat Driver]

Yey Birdog I used the F word.

I missed two keys so I will re post the F word.

flok

Meow

[Cat Driver]

Hey.. you are Birddog...

Your mention of J-Berg just gave me an idea.

Here is a suggestion for all you mush heads who by your liberal upbringing just throw out the "racist" barb every time your missguided sensibilities are wounded.

I'll buy you a one way fare to J-Berg ( one way will be all you will probably need ) and here is what you must do to better understand the "racist" thing that your liberal teachers forgot to teach you.

There is a ring road all around the city of Johannesburg a multi lane expressway.

The city proper is visible from many parts of this expressway, so finding the down town core of J-Berg is easy.

Rent a car at Jan Smutts Airport and drive into downtown J-Berg then park the car and start walking around the city core, if you start in daylight it will be easier for the locals to identify you.

If you come back to the airport after say, five days, I'll buy your return ticket.

However you must be a white Canadian to qualify for this little "racist" experiment.

Cat

[ahramin]

Panama:

Good day to you sir.

As far as superior smugness in our own culture goes, too right mate. There is much to be ashamed of right here at home. I just gave up on an argument in this forum because the other party could not fathom someone who does not want to have the customs of this country imposed on him.

I believe that freedom of speech is absolute. Freedom of speech is not based on the idea that speech does not harm. Rather it is based on the idea that the benefit derived to society exceeds the harm done by reprehensible ideas. That is the interpretation taken by the US courts. My own reason for this belief is on far more philosophical grounds. In this case i think the benefit derived from making a joke that exhibits a cultural trait that i think is dangerous or silly far outweighs the harm to anyone who is offended.

However, when i make jokes i am doing so from what i consider to be an ethical standpoint as well. I feel justified in my actions because i am not a hypocrite. I would never complain if someone made a joke about me or my culture. And i laugh just as much as everyone else when i do something stupid and my captain calls me a wanker in front of everyone later. I do not "do unto others", and though many and maybe most may not agree, i feel in this case this justifies me. If people want to take offense at a negative comment on thier culture, that is thier privilege. Just as it is my privilege to write it. But i have no sympathy for taking offense regardless of truth or merit. Nor for taking oneself too seriously. When someone makes a joke about me or mine i either laugh about it, ignore it, or respond to it.

Respectfully

ahramin

Oh, and Birddog, here's my birddog. I will tell you guys a little more about the gliders later. They are very interesting machines.

[Panama Jack]

Well, some very good thoughts. Thank you Cat Driver, I am Birddog, and ahramin. I want to say that I similarly hold all of you in high regard.

Without getting too mushy, I've been told that life is a journey. The way I see the world, and approach situations, are based on my history. Whether it is worldliness, or weakness, I don't know. But I used to see things in more black and white or as right and wrong and be much more judgmental. Then a lifechanging event occured (and several more after that) that swept me off my feet and made me question on whether the thing that I held for true or right may have, in fact, been wrong??? Speaking with friends who have been though even more profound events than any of us, they relate similar tails. Since then I have come to be able better see both sides of the proverbial coin. But as Cat Driver recently said "I am not perfect"-- refering to another well known personality who was crucified. OK, enough of that.

In summary, as I am Birddog says, we are living in a smaller world. We are all ambassadors and only through tolerance, patience and open mindedness do we have a hope for a better future.

Again ahramin, I hope there are no hard feelings.

[ahramin]

Oh absolutely no hard feelings whatsoever old bean.

Now about those gliders.


The first one is a Schempp-Hirth Duo Discus. It is a two seat, fibreglass and carbon fiber flapless glider with a 20 metre wing. The wings are forward swept for better visibility and ease of entry. The outer metre and a half of each wing is detachable so that the glider still fits in a standard length trailer. Putting the tips back on takes about 2 minutes. The wings are a different story but have automatic hookups and are quite easy to get on for thier size. Gross weight it 1543 lbs and empty weight is typically just over 900 lbs. For competition flying there are four water ballast bladders in the wings as well as a water tank in the tail for W&B. There is only one in canada at this time. If anyone in Western Canada wants a ride and has $500 to blow that will get us the tow and the glider for the day.



The second one is a Dirks-Glaser DG-800 motor glider with fire and forget engine stowing. Once you are in a good thermal you simply turn the ingition off and the engine stops in the vertical position and folds itself back into the tail. The engine produces 54 hp at 6000 rpm and has a 3:1 reduction gear.



The DG-800 is an 18 metre class ship (with positive and negative flaps). Some have a two piece wing allowing the same glider to compete in 18 and 15 metre classes. It can carry up to 100 litres of water ballast in the wings. Empty weight is about 760 lbs and gross weight is 1157 lbs. Takeoff distance over a 50 foot obs at 1000 lbs is 660 feet. Rate of climb at sea level is 880 ft/min. As far as i know there are two in canada.

My first exposure to this glider was in the afternoon on a good day and i was in a PW-5.

I'm flapping good style as i am at 7500 feet with 8000 foot peaks around me and no lift in sight. The next ridge over (closer to the valley) is about 7000 feet so i head over there and find a nice little 400 foot/min climb. I decide to take this one as high as it will get me to give me a chance to regain my composure (one should not panic more than once per flight. I had a flight like that once and it's very bad for the skin). I am happily climbing through 12000 feet going about 300 feet/min and i see a glider on the ridge i just left screaming along in the opposite direction i have been going. He looks to be at about 9000 feet or less. He sees me climbing so he checks over to my ridge to have a look. He passes under me without slowing down, checks back over to the back ridge and keeps right on going. I feel like such a wanker as i can sense the contempt coming from this pilot. I can just hear his thinking "hey buddy, you're in a shitty thermal" as he blows by me over three thousand feet below me. That particular pilot did a 1000 km flight in the rockies.

These guys wear hats that say "To turn is to admit deafeat" and on the good days will glide 200 miles without making a turn. Just pull up and crank the flaps on in the ridge and wave lift and then put the flaps to negative and speed along through the sink.

[Panama Jack]

Very cool. Where do you do this?

[ahramin]

All over the southern half of BC and on Vancouver Island. I have also done some gliding out in ontario and France (that one was paid for by the taxpayers). The Duo Discus is based out of Invermere BC as the flagship of a commercial operation there.

http://www.soartherockies.com

I used to log at least 50 hours of glider time a year but have not been able to do much in the last two summers. I am hoping to get out there a couple times this summer.

[...]

Cat......Are you nuts?!?! I'll do it Cape Town!!! But the shanty towns around Jo-Berg....I like my head just the way it is without any lead embedded in it.

I'll give YOU my car if you do the same for like only 15 minutes. However you must where a white coned hood with a white robe...heck I'll even throw in a bottle of 'Glen-Fiddy' Scotch!!!

Hey.. you are Birddog...

Your mention of J-Berg just gave me an idea.

Here is a suggestion for all you mush heads who by your liberal upbringing just throw out the "racist" barb every time your missguided sensibilities are wounded.

I'll buy you a one way fare to J-Berg ( one way will be all you will probably need ) and here is what you must do to better understand the "racist" thing that your liberal teachers forgot to teach you
There is a ring road all around the city of Johannesburg a multi lane expressway.

The city proper is visible from many parts of this expressway, so finding the down town core of J-Berg is easy.

Rent a car at Jan Smutts Airport and drive into downtown J-Berg then park the car and start walking around the city core, if you start in daylight it will be easier for the locals to identify you.

If you come back to the airport after say, five days, I'll buy your return ticket.

However you must be a white Canadian to qualify for this little "racist" experiment.

Cat