Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by aqk »

Lurch wrote:
I don't care how TC got a hold of the info, If the company in fact was breaking the law then they deserve to get shut down, spiteful ex-employee or not. If they get shut down and all those gutless employees lose their jobs oh well, maybe they should have had the balls to stand-up against these illegal practices before they got shut down.

I don't understand why some people don't get it. If you are involved in a company that breaks regs and you do nothing, you are just a bad as the company if not worse, and most of us on here will have no sympathy when they get shut down and you lose your job.

If these allegations are false and just concocted by an irate ex-employee then legal measures should be taken against said persons.

Lurch

Let me start by saying that I don't know if there is any truth to the allegations that have been made. However, as one of the over half of the members of this company that would not have had control or knowledge IF things weren't being done by the book, (ie:we aren't all pilot's) I take alot of exception to the word "gutless". There are alot of hard working, honorable people who could be out of work if the worst possible scenario played out, so maybe choose your words a little more carefully.

Who knows? Maybe someone at your company is doing underhanded things. It could happen anywhere, and how would you know?

My hope is this all comes out clean, and we can all continue to try and make aviation better/safer.
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by justapilon »

pastf
pastflyr wrote:
flameout wrote:"so the copilot had to make a command decision" ummm.... Where I come from 200 hour wonders don't usually get to make command decisions. And if I were captain of an aircraft where a copilot tried telling me what to do I'd probably fire his ass to. But hey, maybe we have different ideas of what a PIC is.

I feel compelled to respond to this, there is a reason that there are two of us in the CP, there has to be some level of democracy, refusing to fly because the a/c is unsafe is not a command decision it is a safety issue. I have flown with so many captains who let the ego's get in the way it is a god damn good thing there has been a 200 hour wonder to bring the captain back to reality.


Also the other statements that have been going around that it was just disgruntled past employee's is a load, they may have started the investigation but TC doesn’t make up a 200+k fine because there are a few pissed off employee's or bring criminal charges against the owner that could land him in jail without hard evidence of wrong doing.
I think there has enough said about the copilot and captain in this instance, see overshoot's comments below. One loudmouth rants about a gutless captain and a heroic copilot and everyone takes up the torch. There are not nearly enough details for anyone to make a valuable comment on the topic, but I suggest that this conversation end, as there are obviously people on this forum who know the individuals involved, and people's reputations are being smeared here! If people want to discuss whether or not a co-piolt should have the right to say no to a flight, that's great, but in my opinion, it should not be done in this context as the truth will likely never come out. The co-pilot that was fired will openly dispense his/her point of view, and the company will have to be very limited in response due to the optics of talking about at past employee. That's the way it always goes. We will never know everything that occurred behind closed doors. One thing that I do know though, is that all companies try to hold onto good employees, especially in aviation due to the investment involved in getting a pilot trained and on line. So, if I had to hazzard a guess, there is a lot more to the story than will ever be told here.

For the record, (and this should be the start of a new thread if there is interest in it) without rereferencing these individuals, of course a co-pilot has the right and duty to decline a flight. Making those decisions is an essential part of personal development toward becoming a captain.
overshoot wrote:I happened to know the A/C was MEL'd and if that deems the plane unfit to fly then anyone who has flown with an MEL has been unsafe and should make a stand for rightousness.
Oh, one last thing, I would assume that the 200+k fine has not yet been settlled, you'd be crazy to pay that with out contest before the tribunal. As for the criminal charges, I suggest that we all respect these processes (tribunal, court proceedings) and don't suspect the worst. Remember, innocent until proven guilty. That is the consideration that I'm sure all of us would like if anything were ever alleged against us. If everyone was guilty of everything they were ever charged with, there'd be more people in prison than out. Stay in aviation long enough and sooner or later, Transport will be looking at you for something. Some of the best people in aviation that I know have had to go to the tribunal to defend themselves.
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by Lurch »

aqk wrote:
Lurch wrote:
I don't care how TC got a hold of the info, If the company in fact was breaking the law then they deserve to get shut down, spiteful ex-employee or not. If they get shut down and all those gutless employees lose their jobs oh well, maybe they should have had the balls to stand-up against these illegal practices before they got shut down.

I don't understand why some people don't get it. If you are involved in a company that breaks regs and you do nothing, you are just a bad as the company if not worse, and most of us on here will have no sympathy when they get shut down and you lose your job.

If these allegations are false and just concocted by an irate ex-employee then legal measures should be taken against said persons.

Lurch

Let me start by saying that I don't know if there is any truth to the allegations that have been made. However, as one of the over half of the members of this company that would not have had control or knowledge IF things weren't being done by the book, (ie:we aren't all pilot's) I take alot of exception to the word "gutless". There are alot of hard working, honorable people who could be out of work if the worst possible scenario played out, so maybe choose your words a little more carefully.

Who knows? Maybe someone at your company is doing underhanded things. It could happen anywhere, and how would you know?

My hope is this all comes out clean, and we can all continue to try and make aviation better/safer.


Disclaimer: I have never worked for this company, I don't know anybody that has, I don't know anything about this company, I wouldn't recognise their planes if I saw one. Due to my total lack of knowledge of this company I cannot comment on the validity of the claims.

AQK, I need to apologise for my post, I wasn't claiming that any employees of this company are "gutless" as per above. I also wasn't talking about every employee of a company being the problem.

This site is filled with mostly AMEs and Pilots, the main problem of this industry and they are the ones I was addressing. These are the employees in the know and your best defence against bad management practices. If the pilots and AMEs refuse to break the law, management would have no choice but to operate within the law.

If your or anybody else's company is shut down, there are only a few people to blame, the pilots and theAMEs, not TC. If these two groups refuse to play along then TC won't have any issues.

Don't blame those who are doing their jobs blame those that aren't.

We need to start placing blame where it belongs, with us.

Lurch
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by aqk »

Lurch,

Apology accepted. I kind of thought it wasn't worded the way it was intended.

And I agree....TC has a job to do. If you play by the rules, you should have no reason to fear them.........in theory;).
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by The Old Fogducker »

I don't get it sometimes ... a substantial number of posters ask "Where is TC when it comes to shutting down lawbreakers?" After all, "everybody knows" they are doing something illegal, it can be smelled in the air ... and that should be enough to take a company out of the skies.

Then a company AOC gets suspended based on evidence, and they howl like wolves on the night of a full moon that these are great guys, .... just trying to get along in a dog-eat-dog world where nobody should be expected to follow the rules because they are unrealistic. Nobody can make money unless airplanes are flown overweight, beyond inspections, broken items are never snagged, and aircraft are staffed by crews that don't have any qualms about falsifying document entries. Oh, and I forgot ... no weather is too low to get in on a non-precision approach if the guy "handling the pole" is a decent pilot, and not a gutless coward.

After all, its just the way of "the real world."

So you'd think TC just spins a roulette wheel on Monday morning, rounds up an RCMP officer, gets a Search Warrant from a judge, goes and kicks in a few doors, rips the AOC off the wall just for the entertainment value.

That said, I can't say I was impressed with the Ops Mgr's statement to the press that the company will need to meet with TC to determine how to comply with the regs ... an Ops Mgr is supposed to know how to keep the company "above board" without expecting TC to become a management consultant.

OFD
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by justapilon »

The Old Fogducker wrote:I don't get it sometimes ... a substantial number of posters ask "Where is TC when it comes to shutting down lawbreakers?" After all, "everybody knows" they are doing something illegal, it can be smelled in the air ... and that should be enough to take a company out of the skies.

Then a company AOC gets suspended based on evidence, and they howl like wolves on the night of a full moon that these are great guys, .... just trying to get along in a dog-eat-dog world where nobody should be expected to follow the rules because they are unrealistic. Nobody can make money unless airplanes are flown overweight, beyond inspections, broken items are never snagged, and aircraft are staffed by crews that don't have any qualms about falsifying document entries. Oh, and I forgot ... no weather is too low to get in on a non-precision approach if the guy "handling the pole" is a decent pilot, and not a gutless coward.
After all, its just the way of "the real world."

So you'd think TC just spins a roulette wheel on Monday morning, rounds up an RCMP officer, gets a Search Warrant from a judge, goes and kicks in a few doors, rips the AOC off the wall just for the entertainment value.

That said, I can't say I was impressed with the Ops Mgr's statement to the press that the company will need to meet with TC to determine how to comply with the regs ... an Ops Mgr is supposed to know how to keep the company "above board" without expecting TC to become a management consultant.

OFD

The above post is the reason that my rank is 0 and I think this will be my second post ever on Avcanada (and it's likely to be my last for a long time, yes, yes, I'll say it for you antagonists-"good riddens"...bla bla bla). I don't know how long this site has been around, but I have been reading on this site for 15 years or so (don't freak out if Avcanada is only 14 years old etc, etc, this is an estimate) and have avoided getting involved in some of the idiocy that goes on here. Disclaimer: There is a lot of good reading and conversation on Avcanada.

The Old Fogducker, I see that you joined March 2004. I'm surprised that almost 6 years as a member here has not left you with the desire to contribute with more beneficial and accurate material.

First, the company that is being slammed here has never publicly said that they have never done anything wrong (that I know of anyway), what I am hearing in the press is that they are making every effort to cooperate with TC. This is not the only company around that has had their OC suspended, including companies on the same airfield.

As far as this statement:


Nobody can make money unless airplanes are flown overweight, beyond inspections, broken items are never snagged, and aircraft are staffed by crews that don't have any qualms about falsifying document entries. Oh, and I forgot ... no weather is too low to get in on a non-precision approach if the guy "handling the pole" is a decent pilot, and not a gutless coward.
After all, its just the way of "the real world."

That just sounds like blithering; cannon fodder. and if I worked at this company I would certainly be offended at the insinuations. Maybe there are those (at any company) that will break rules for their boss, but I bet if you got off of this anonymous forum and went to the company's place of business and looked those pilots in the eye, you would sing a different song, I'll bet there are a lot of good hard working professionals there.

And I don't know if you have problems reading, but as I read the Winnipeg Free Press article, I don't think they were quoting the Operations Manager.

OK, blast away, I will give you the last word.
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by Cat Driver »

One of the things that I find interesting is the size of the fine that TC levied against that company.

$200,000.00 is serious money anyone know the breakdown of that amount, or how the amount was calculated?
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by ywgflyboy »

justapilon wrote: The above post is the reason that my rank is 0 and I think this will be my second post ever on Avcanada (and it's likely to be my last for a long time, yes, yes, I'll say it for you antagonists-"good riddens"...bla bla bla). I don't know how long this site has been around, but I have been reading on this site for 15 years or so (don't freak out if Avcanada is only 14 years old etc, etc, this is an estimate) and have avoided getting involved in some of the idiocy that goes on here. Disclaimer: There is a lot of good reading and conversation on Avcanada.
Hmm. First member was Feb 15, 2004.

Cat Driver, you are on the first page of members... Was there a different version of avcanada prior?
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by CD »

Yes, this is the "new, improved" version of the forums! :mrgreen:

If you note in the web address, this version is "forums2". The original version had a wee meltdown so we started over.
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by ywgflyboy »

Melt down as in technical issues, or melt down as in someone mentioned something about a college of professional pilots and all hell broke loose, and a forum reset was required so everyone could create a new name and save their dignity? :P
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by The Old Fogducker »

Justapilon:

If you re-read my comments, you'll hopefully note they were directed at AvCanada posters who come out of the woodwork attacking TC whenever an investigation or suspension is conducted by Transport and advocate openly or by insinuation that the type of operating practices I described are defensible as being normal conduct.

In my travels around the country, I still hear a lot of people speaking exactly those words, and thinking it is just the way of the normal world of aviation.

I will attack those negative attitudes and company cultures whenever possible ... that's my positive contribution to the industry as I near the end of my working career.

For greater certainty Justapilon, those comments which have prompted you to write were not directed toward the company in question.

OFD
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by The Old Fogducker »

ywgflyboy wrote:Melt down as in technical issues, or melt down as in someone mentioned something about a college of professional pilots and all hell broke loose, and a forum reset was required so everyone could create a new name and save their dignity? :P
Going by memory, a lot of sites using this forum management software were hacked and screwed up royally. I'm sure Joe, or an AvCanada Moderator can shed light on that issue.

Some of the original join dates and posts were saved, but many ... myself included, just re-joined and lost all our previous glory of having the AvCanada equivalent of a "low licence number" indicating some perceived elevated status.

OFD
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by ringofire »

Cat Driver wrote:One of the things that I find interesting is the size of the fine that TC levied against that company.

$200,000.00 is serious money anyone know the breakdown of that amount, or how the amount was calculated?
I've heard that this is one of the largest fines ever dealt by TC... Anyone know if there is any truth to that?
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by Dust Devil »

ringofire wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:One of the things that I find interesting is the size of the fine that TC levied against that company.

$200,000.00 is serious money anyone know the breakdown of that amount, or how the amount was calculated?
I've heard that this is one of the largest fines ever dealt by TC... Anyone know if there is any truth to that?
I wouldn't doubt it. I've seen them in the thousands or tens of thousands but I don't think I've seen a 6 figure fine before.
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by justapilon »

The Old Fogducker,

Thanks for your latter comments/clarification. I appologize for the sarcasm that was a result of my thinking you were attacking just one company. I do agree with you for the most part then, it is up to us all to continue to create a safety culture in aviation. I also agree that those things you described are certainly not part of "the real world" (agian, I thought you were throwing a blanket of wrongs over just the one company that the thread had started over).

I know I said I wasn't going to post again on this, but I figured I owed you that as a result of your explaination.

PS, can anyone tell us when Avcanada started the first time? As I got thinking about it, I couldn't exactly pinpoint when I started coming here, but for all I know it may have been around long before that.
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by Dust Devil »

justapilon wrote:The Old Fogducker,

Thanks for your latter comments/clarification. I appologize for the sarcasm that was a result of my thinking you were attacking just one company. I do agree with you for the most part then, it is up to us all to continue to create a safety culture in aviation. I also agree that those things you described are certainly not part of "the real world" (agian, I thought you were throwing a blanket of wrongs over just the one company that the thread had started over).

I know I said I wasn't going to post again on this, but I figured I owed you that as a result of your explaination.

PS, can anyone tell us when Avcanada started the first time? As I got thinking about it, I couldn't exactly pinpoint when I started coming here, but for all I know it may have been around long before that.
I almost want to guess around 1995 or 97. I seem to recall posting on a Canadian aviation forum back then when I was a student pilot.

Didn't Harvs Air in Manitoba run an aviation forum back in the day?
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by CD »

In one form or another, I believe it's been online since June 1998.
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by The Old Fogducker »

Justapilon:

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

We all have a duty to stomp out those who would drag down the progress made in the business over the last not quite 4 decades I've been involved with it when those practices I mentioned in the previous post was the way business was done on a daily basis by a great many companies.

Last summer I discussed my early flying days with a fellow who seriously felt that flying in the north meant you could "give'r" and there was absolutely nothing untoward about flying a piston Otter 1,000 lbs over gross with fuel drums and gear oil ... because after all, it was the north, no passengers carried, there were no hills to climb over, most of the flight was conducted at low altitude, it was OK to save the customer a few trips on the fuel haul, and it meant he was done the job quicker.

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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by witness keystone »

January 13, 2010 CAR 101.01

"air time" - means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing; (temps dans les airs)

"flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)

I guess you could. Who is going to care about.1 or .5 of air time? DF
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by BoostedNihilist »

One of the things that I find interesting is the size of the fine that TC levied against that company.

$200,000.00 is serious money anyone know the breakdown of that amount, or how the amount was calculated?
maybe it's your payday Cat!
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Re: Dylan at it again - - - January 14, 2010, 10:00am

Post by Cat Driver »

maybe it's your payday Cat!
They will have to raise another $50,000.00 if they intend to pay me what they owe me.

The truth is they will stonewall me until I am dead....pricks.
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