Another Olympic Meeting

[Carrier]

Quote: "The straight answer to this is no. I do not have the right to vote in Canada and so I'm not a participant in the decision processes here.'

MichaelP, thanks for the response. I encourage you to contact your MP and MLA ASAP and encourage others to do the same. Remember that a revolution because of NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION caused the formation of the neighbouring country. If you are paying taxes then you have a fundamental human right to have a say on who taxes you and how your taxes are spent. You should be demanding your right to vote or exclusion from taxes. I am fighting this over my home. I moved to another province for my job and rented out the house. I was excluded from municipal elections although I pay property taxes. I intend to keep causing as much sh*t as possible until I have a vote. With a computer it is easy to keep up the pressure with a few mouse clicks now and then.

Regardless of citizenship, if your legitimate business in Canada has been damaged by some action taken for "the common good" then you should receive full compensation. This is done in any country that respects the rule of law and fundamental human rights. Canada seems to have departed from this to follow the example of Robert Mugabe's Zimbabwe.

[beaverbob]

I sent an email regarding this matter to the government of BC months ago. The only reply I recieved was from the opposition leader, Carol James, promising to look in to the matter and take it up in the Legislature. I have heard nothing since.
Bob

[CBSW]

I'm with Cat/ Michael P.

If we aren't in a police state why is there the threat of " lethal foce" via a CF18 or a Griffon helicopter? Why is the military closing a crosswind runway to park its CF18's and putting up massive blinding lights facing the tower/ TDZ of one of the runway's at one of canada's biggest airports. Could you choose to do this? YVR looks like martial law has been imposed.... How is that welcoming? Aviation if part of Canada's culture/ the culture on the westcoast... it is also a key marketing tool that is being neglected in the name of security..

Thing is.. when i went to an ISU meeting how come none of the agencies: nav canada, ISU, TCCA etc could get on the same page? If you are going to impose martial law on aviation you better have your shit figured out! They don't!!! They are still figuring out plans!! How is this secure??
Security at the games is providing nothing more than a multi billion dollar illusion that could be better spent on something else.. None of this deter an attack.. it is just a smokescreen .. and a great training exercise at your expense.

[human garbage]

Neocons and Libertarians are the "Right" and so is Fascism.

I was going to point out the same fact to the poster when I read it. Then again why bother? Anyone who starts injecting talk about neocons, libertarians, and Obama in a discussion where it is not germane is most likely some sort of agenda driven tin-foil hat type anyway.

...see if you feel the same way if the olympics were costing you $10,000 out of your own pocket...

Amen. Sorry to hear that Wally. I'm looking at losing almost 30k so I know how it feels. Not good. We aren't the worst off either. KD Air may be mortally wounded by the olympics for one. There are others I'm sure. Not such a great party afterall.

...Security at the games is providing nothing more than a multi billion dollar illusion that could be better spent on something else.. None of this deter an attack.. it is just a smokescreen .. and a great training exercise at your expense.

Excellent post. You understand it...

[sky's the limit]

I'm with Cat/ Michael P.


Security at the games is providing nothing more than a multi billion dollar illusion that could be better spent on something else.. None of this deter an attack.. it is just a smokescreen .. and a great training exercise at your expense.

You are so correct. I can't believe it's Canada, but there you have it, selling fear works. Mobile security set up all over the place, soldiers taking all the seat at the Beaver during lunch....

When I talked to the "Corridor" control last week while working in Howe Sound, they were ecstatic just to have someone to talk to...! LOL Oh well, nothing like some big time debt to pay off... The way the Floaters have been treated is disgusting imho, they've certainly had the $(#@ end of the stick.

I'd say complain to your MP, but nobody's home this quarter, apparently the country runs just fine without Gov't?

stl

[CBSW]

Human garbage and STL,


sometimes I think I sound like a total nutbar with that stuff. But honestly, i can't see any of this doing any good. Hard working Canadians are losing their means of feeding themselves. So a bunch of pompous athletes can come here and party it up with hookers and booze.

What LB and DB are being put through is uncanadian...erasing a family run business and a good operation.. in the name of hysteria is truly pathetic.

Like I said, YVRAA, etc still hasn't ironed out the security kinks yet (they are still planning/changing things)... And these people are tasked with keeping us safe.. uh huh.. yup! Smokescreen... 100%

But KD and the floaters can't operate.. because of security.. incompetent and totalitarian " security".

sad.. very sad indeed.. and VERY Un- Canadian

What really is sobering .. is the apathy with respect to all this.. A foreign body of UNELECTED officials is deciding what happens on YOUR SOIL...

[Cat Driver]

In two days I will not be able to fly a circuit in the Husky for almost two months because the Nanaimo airport lies just within the 30 mile circle drawn by some deep thinker under the guise of security.

Lets look at this from a security standpoint.

A terrorist steals the Husky with the intent of flying across the straight to use it as a weapon during the Olympics...... common sense dictates that considering the speed of the Husky the security forces should have enough time to access the threat and take whatever action needed...or would they??

Maybe the real problem is the circle should be way bigger....like five hundred miles?

[modi13]

In two days I will not be able to fly a circuit in the Husky for almost two months because the Nanaimo airport lies just within the 30 mile circle drawn by some deep thinker under the guise of security.

Yes you can. Or is filing a flight authorization and flight plan too onerous? You don't even have to get screened if you're not flying to one of the CYRs.
The reason to make the 30 NM rings is that it makes it easy to identify a threat much earlier, and actually have time to intercept them. If they were allowed to fly along the edge of the restricted airspace around the venues there would be no possible way to stop them from suddenly turning and divebombing the crowd. If everyone within the rings is following certain rules, it makes it much easier to recognize if someone is acting out of the ordinary. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I understand why they're doing it, and screaming that the RCMP is trying to take over Canada or the government is oppressing you is ridiculous.
The Canadian government has explicitly not authorized "lethal force". The CF-18s won't simply shoot down anyone not complying with the restrictions; perhaps you've forgotten your intercept orders. It's no different than flying over Cold Lake without permission: they'll escort you out of the area, and perhaps give you a stern talking-to, but they won't just kill you.The US has authorized "lethal force", but that's standing orders anyway...
I drew the comparison between the posters in here and neocons and libertarians not because I have an "agenda", but because the similarities are apt. The people in this forum rant and rave that the government is oppressing them and taking their liberty, and the association between the government and Nazism was made; where else is this common? I expected better of the aviation community in Canada, and all I see is a group of children whining because they've been given a time-out. It's a bunch of reactionary rhetoric based on ignorance of what the restrictions actually are, and it doesn't seem that anyone has actually thought any of it through. The restrictions are temporary. Deal with it and grow up.
None of you have yet answered my query about Kananaskis. How many of those restrictions are still being enforced? They were put in place by a different governing party, and none of you have been disenfranchised since.

[patter]

Where was the aeronautical study and risk management that by law is required in advance to permit a change in airspace. CARS says it has to be done. Never heard wind of that study.

[viccoastdog]

Deal with it and grow up.

Oh dear...curious as to the reply from CD.

Listen here bud, I have a very good idea what the restrictions entail, and yes, they are too onerous. They will seriously affect our business for two months with little in extra security being gained.

I will give you an example because it appears I have a bit more understanding of what's involved than you do. To fly into YVR float base from Victoria Airport float base I will need to get my passengers screened (as well as get an FA etc etc). This could be accomplished at the temporary CATSA/GARDA facility at the Aeroshell. After they've been screened CATSA could care less about the pax. Now it's Transport Canada who has responsibility for approving a means to get them to the floatbase. The method has to be preapproved for the duration of the restrictions, but it can be done in a van, wagon, SUV, just so long as the pax are separated from their luggage by a screen and follows a defined route! No escort is necessarily required, although the RCMP may follow or meet at the base. Once at the base the pax have to be loaded separately from their luggage, even though later during the flight they can reach behind and grab their luggage.

Also note that many areas that we normally go to in CYR185 will now be closed to us because there are no silly screening facilities accessible to us.

Now can you seriously tell me that whole rigmarole has increased safety and security, or is it just one agency (CATSA) passing the buck to another (TC) when they're met their individual mandate?

Stop passively accepting what you've been told is for your own good and actually question the rational and motives behind it ('butt covering' comes to mind).

[Cat Driver]

Deal with it and grow up.

Oh dear God where do I start with you modi13??? Hang on a second while I,



O.K. I think I have my breath back now sufficient to finish typing this.

I also took the time to read all your posts and it looks like you live in the Vancouver area, PM me and we can meet at the airport you fly from, I would love to have you teach me all about the real world and how human nature really works.

In return, once I am sufficiently grown up I will help you out with this request you made a while ago.

Does anyone know where I can get an operating manual for a DHC-6-100/200 for free, or at least less than $37US plus $30 shipping?

Even though I do not have the life experience and the maturity you do I do have a lot of time on the DHC6 both on floats and off strip in the High Arctic on wheels. Maybe I could give you some hints on how to fly the DHC6.

************************************************************

So if I want to do circuits here at Nanaimo and also some touch and goes on the water in the Husky all I have to do is file a flight plan?

[Old Dog Flying]

Deal with it and grow up.

So if I want to do circuits here at Nanaimo and also some touch and goes on the water in the Husky all I have to do is file a flight plan?

That's all .! And for some of the guys operating private aircraft out of Blunder Bay, the APM at Langley is offering free tie-down/parking on the new paved runway..free of charge for the full 54 days of the BS Holymdics. This will allow folks to file a F/P and go flying without the hassle of the $8.00 per hour CATSA bumpickers.

[Cat Driver]

If I want to do circuits at Nanaimo all I have to do is file a flight plan?

And if I want to do circuits in Quesnel lake just add that to the flight plan?

[North Shore]

Y'know, Cat, if I were in your shoes, I'd take a serious look at moving the plane to Quesnel (Quenell?) Lake for the duration and flying circuits whenever I felt like it. No transponder and below 500', I wonder if you'd show up on Radar? Even if you did, what are they going to do? Take away your licence?

[iflyforpie]

Y'know, Cat, if I were in your shoes, I'd take a serious look at moving the plane to Quesnel (Quenell?) Lake for the duration and flying circuits whenever I felt like it. No transponder and below 500', I wonder if you'd show up on Radar? Even if you did, what are they going to do? Take away your licence?

I wonder if you could do the same thing on Deer Lake in Burnaby?

[viccoastdog]

Quennell Lake is in the CYR 185, so need a flight plan for there too. The problem is the flight plan has to specify exactly what and when you want to do it - "no random flights", whatever the hell that is. So you could take off from Nanaimo, fly to Quennel Lake, do circuits for however long you've flight planned for, and then continue on with the rest of what you've flight planned for. If the destinations and places you're doing circuits don't have a call up name or simething on the VTA, I've been told you have to give lat/lon coordinates.

Also gotta' be talking to 'Vancouver Monitor' on 133.425, have a transponder, and class C weather requirements apply.

All in all, it's seems like a pain in the ass if all you want to do is go do some circuits.

[Cat Driver]

Yeh Quennell lake is in the 30 mile ring and Randy will not be able to do training out of there, however I live above Long Lake and that is outside the ring.....but I don't own property on the lake so that makes for another problem.

For sure the powers to be who are planning al this will not suffer financially, and it is sure looking like there will not be a white olympics in the mountains around Vancouver.

I wonder how all this will end up financially for the citizens who pay taxes in Canada?

[Cat Driver]

If the F 18's do not have shoot down permission why use them?

[modi13]

Deal with it and grow up.

Oh dear...curious as to the reply from CD.

Listen here bud, I have a very good idea what the restrictions entail, and yes, they are too onerous. They will seriously affect our business for two months with little in extra security being gained.

I will give you an example because it appears I have a bit more understanding of what's involved than you do. To fly into YVR float base from Victoria Airport float base I will need to get my passengers screened (as well as get an FA etc etc). This could be accomplished at the temporary CATSA/GARDA facility at the Aeroshell. After they've been screened CATSA could care less about the pax. Now it's Transport Canada who has responsibility for approving a means to get them to the floatbase. The method has to be preapproved for the duration of the restrictions, but it can be done in a van, wagon, SUV, just so long as the pax are separated from their luggage by a screen and follows a defined route! No escort is necessarily required, although the RCMP may follow or meet at the base. Once at the base the pax have to be loaded separately from their luggage, even though later during the flight they can reach behind and grab their luggage.

Also note that many areas that we normally go to in CYR185 will now be closed to us because there are no silly screening facilities accessible to us.

Now can you seriously tell me that whole rigmarole has increased safety and security, or is it just one agency (CATSA) passing the buck to another (TC) when they're met their individual mandate?

Stop passively accepting what you've been told is for your own good and actually question the rational and motives behind it ('butt covering' comes to mind).

I'm seriously starting to question how many people on AvCanada are literate. I went out of my way to state that I don't agree with the restrictions being put in place, and I am completely ambivalent towards the Olympics in general. However, I see no purpose in whinging that the RCMP is out to get me personally and resigning myself to a "woe is me" attitude. Again, if you're really concerned about your liberty take up arms and do something. I fly out of Boundary Bay, work in Vancouver Harbour, and live near one of the venues, so I understand quite well what's involved, but I've found ways to prosper. I'm absolutely not happy about the hoops through which I have to jump, and I'm not "passively accepting what you've been told is for your own good". I'm going to be working more hours during the Olympics, and the airline for which I work has found ingenuitive plans to not just survive, but succeed. The fact is that there is no grand conspiracy by the RCMP to take over the country by restricting airspace for a couple of months and then returning everything to the way it was, but those of you who are affected obviously feel that this is some personal slight. If you feel that the restrictions are too onerous then you must not fly to the US frequently; the requirements for operating outside CYR 186 are even less restrictive than flying south, since no screening is required, nor will it be needed after March 4. Really, is filing a flight authorization and flight plan that difficult? And how can you honestly believe that making those mandatory for two months is some kind of tyrannical takeover of the country? (I have yet to receive an answer to my query about Kananaskis.) I don't find the extra steps in any way helpful, but let's be realistic. No one is stopping you from flying.
I'm sure under the most extenuating circumstances the F-18s would be granted permission to shoot down an aircraft, but that would undoubtedly have to come from NDHQ. It would require an imminent threat to lives, and the pilots won't arbitrarily decide who lives and who dies. They're primarily for escort missions, to remove aircraft from areas where they shouldn't be, and intimidation, but not, as I'm sure some of you will assume, indimidation of you. If someone did intend to pose a threat to the Olympics, knowing that a fighter aircraft was waiting would be as much of a deterrent as a police officer waiting outside a bank they intended to rob.
If all of you are so completely opposed to the amount of security being put in place, just how much should we use? Why not just leave all the venues open to whoever wants in? Why not leave the airspace wide open? Once more, since obviously I need to repeat myself, I'm taking a position on this, and I'm not saying that I agree with a lockdown. I'm really interested to know what you think is just enough and why.

[MichaelP]

AvCanada should not be a forum where we attack each other.
Energy and thought devoted to attacking each other is wasted when there's a chance of meaningful debate and intelligent conclusions.

No-one likes these restrictions, they put Canada in a very bad light as a country less than free and democratic.

So how do we cope with the situation and how will we proceed in the future if the authorities try this nonsense again.

Do we have any say at all?

I know how I'm coping... There's a Cathay A340 ready outside to take me to the other Hong Kong...
Then there's flying for me to do in SE Thailand next week.

[Cat Driver]

Have a nice trip Michael, I hated those long hauls...glad I'm retired.

[V1 Rotate]

I've disagreed with Cat Driver in the past, but in this thread he nails it right on the head. As do many others. Glad to see there are people that are not pliant "sheeple". To the apologists, go scew yourselves. But then again, every regime has had its sycophants.

[viccoastdog]

Deal with it and grow up.

Oh dear...curious as to the reply from CD.

Listen here bud, I have a very good idea what the restrictions entail, and yes, they are too onerous. They will seriously affect our business for two months with little in extra security being gained.

I will give you an example because it appears I have a bit more understanding of what's involved than you do. To fly into YVR float base from Victoria Airport float base I will need to get my passengers screened (as well as get an FA etc etc). This could be accomplished at the temporary CATSA/GARDA facility at the Aeroshell. After they've been screened CATSA could care less about the pax. Now it's Transport Canada who has responsibility for approving a means to get them to the floatbase. The method has to be preapproved for the duration of the restrictions, but it can be done in a van, wagon, SUV, just so long as the pax are separated from their luggage by a screen and follows a defined route! No escort is necessarily required, although the RCMP may follow or meet at the base. Once at the base the pax have to be loaded separately from their luggage, even though later during the flight they can reach behind and grab their luggage.

Also note that many areas that we normally go to in CYR185 will now be closed to us because there are no silly screening facilities accessible to us.

Now can you seriously tell me that whole rigmarole has increased safety and security, or is it just one agency (CATSA) passing the buck to another (TC) when they're met their individual mandate?

Stop passively accepting what you've been told is for your own good and actually question the rational and motives behind it ('butt covering' comes to mind).

I'm seriously starting to question how many people on AvCanada are literate. I went out of my way to state that I don't agree with the restrictions being put in place, and I am completely ambivalent towards the Olympics in general. However, I see no purpose in whinging that the RCMP is out to get me personally and resigning myself to a "woe is me" attitude. Again, if you're really concerned about your liberty take up arms and do something. I fly out of Boundary Bay, work in Vancouver Harbour, and live near one of the venues, so I understand quite well what's involved, but I've found ways to prosper. I'm absolutely not happy about the hoops through which I have to jump, and I'm not "passively accepting what you've been told is for your own good". I'm going to be working more hours during the Olympics, and the airline for which I work has found ingenuitive plans to not just survive, but succeed. The fact is that there is no grand conspiracy by the RCMP to take over the country by restricting airspace for a couple of months and then returning everything to the way it was, but those of you who are affected obviously feel that this is some personal slight. If you feel that the restrictions are too onerous then you must not fly to the US frequently; the requirements for operating outside CYR 186 are even less restrictive than flying south, since no screening is required, nor will it be needed after March 4. Really, is filing a flight authorization and flight plan that difficult? And how can you honestly believe that making those mandatory for two months is some kind of tyrannical takeover of the country? (I have yet to receive an answer to my query about Kananaskis.) I don't find the extra steps in any way helpful, but let's be realistic. No one is stopping you from flying.
I'm sure under the most extenuating circumstances the F-18s would be granted permission to shoot down an aircraft, but that would undoubtedly have to come from NDHQ. It would require an imminent threat to lives, and the pilots won't arbitrarily decide who lives and who dies. They're primarily for escort missions, to remove aircraft from areas where they shouldn't be, and intimidation, but not, as I'm sure some of you will assume, indimidation of you. If someone did intend to pose a threat to the Olympics, knowing that a fighter aircraft was waiting would be as much of a deterrent as a police officer waiting outside a bank they intended to rob.
If all of you are so completely opposed to the amount of security being put in place, just how much should we use? Why not just leave all the venues open to whoever wants in? Why not leave the airspace wide open? Once more, since obviously I need to repeat myself, I'm taking a position on this, and I'm not saying that I agree with a lockdown. I'm really interested to know what you think is just enough and why.

Sorry for quoting the whole blurb, but it's necessary because I have to ask you where in my post did I say I thought the "RCMP are out to get me" or any other paranoid drivel. Nowhere in my post do I bring up getting shot down by an F18 or even a concern about interception.

What I am saying is that much of the procedures for Olympic security is either for show, or for various departments just to cover their asses. And in doing so it affects our business detrimentally. We don't fly to the US, so we have no need to suffer through the procedures for cross border flights. Also, I stated that the requirements of CYR186 have essentially blocked us from going to certain places that in the past we've had reason to fly to. Why? Because the places don't have a screening facility - heck, some of them don't even have a dock!

Oh, and BTW, I'm pretty literate; enough so to know that "indimidation" isn't a word.

[Cat Driver]

Viccoastdog I hope modi13 can get together with me to educate me so I can be a grown up like him.

And with luck he can teach me how to do this.

Yes you can. Or is filing a flight authorization and flight plan too onerous?

I have never had to do any of that and am wondering how to go about it.

[viccoastdog]

Viccoastdog I hope modi13 can get together with me to educate me so I can be a grown up like him.

And with luck he can teach me how to do this.

Yes you can. Or is filing a flight authorization and flight plan too onerous?

I have never had to do any of that and am wondering how to go about it.

Well, when filing a flight plan, you have to ask very nicely: You see, as modi13 said previously, it's Transport Canada's airspace!