Flight Attendant upgraded to B767 co-pilot . . .

[bcflyer]

My point is that there was absolutely nothing unsafe about putting a F/A with a pilots license in the right seat to talk on the radio and read the checklist. Its not like the captain was letting her land the bloody airplane!
With regards to the incidents with Captains having heart attacks, the ones that I heard about were on long haul flights and the relief pilot became the second pilot while the F/O flew the plane. Again, two people in the cockpit...

[SunWuKong]

According to the journalist a CPL passed 20 years ago without experience since and ever, this is stretching a bit the definition of pilot. A normal guy passionate of flight simulator, the computer game, currently flying the same airplane (B767)on his computer has more habilities to help the captain flying and landing the airplane.

Further more nobody said she read any check list, and nobody said she can read back an IFR clearance, nobody clearly said she read back any instruction from ATC anyway. I don't think the captain would let her speak with the ATC and let change a "normal flight" (it is an emergency, but in fact the flight is still perfectly safe) into a dangerous flight with miscommunication with the ATC and unclear check list.

Speaking about a check list (if she read any)
landing check list: speed break (spoilers for some Boeing...) armed, landing gear down, flaps. Finished, this is the landing Boeing check list (it can vay a bit according the airplane) you have to accomplish within 30 minutes before landing... And the check list is on the yoke in front of you eyes. So even if she read it (nobody said that anyway) wow! what a difference.. Did she understand what she read and what she had to check? Better for the captain to understand hi his alone in this case, so that he double check of the items of the short check list.

After reading this article we can be sure of only 2 facts (if the journalist doesn't lie, and if this is not an hoax), she set the altimeter on the F/O side (great!) and familiarize herself with the Public Adress! Well she can speak to the passengers from the cabin aswell, no need to touch any switch in the cockpit for that... That is why I am not sure it is a safe decision.
I think she would habe been more in use in the cabin to make the passengers feel better concerning the event or taking care of the first officer who was sick. It was her job. When the captain brought her in front of the command, he just brought a more confusing situation, in flight, and after the flight.

So at that point it is unclear to me that the captain decision was a safe and smart one.

[AuxBatOn]

Dude,

I think you take your job way too seriously and make it sound like it's sooooo hard. A monkey could probably do your job. Having someone in the right seat, sharing easy tasks (ie: reducing the workload) is better than no one in that seat. It's not hard to read back a clearance, set the altimeter, push 3-4 buttons to set the A/P, read a checklist, after being told how to do those tasks. I'm pretty sure the A/C was not expecting her to adhere to all the SOPs and procedures, but just be there to help with easy, non-technical tasks, when he needed help. After being a F/A for so long and a CPL background, I think it's fair to say she had some idea of what was going on.

[SunWuKong]

A monkey could probably do your job.

If I disturb you by any mean I apologize. I just wanted to speak about one subject, the one of the thread. I don't remember having said to anybody that a monkey could do his job, if I say something like that it would be because I feel attacked, or very angry.

Look, if you want to say a monkey could probabely do my job, alright then. I am a bit surprise to hear that here. Is there any possibility to stay on track on the subject, without having to read personal comments on somebody else job?

Again if there is anything I said here, or on the other thread while I was speaking about jet and turboprop time that can offense you I sincerely apologize, I thought it was a gentleman discussion speaking about technical subject (turbine), and on this thread I thought the point was to talk about this ridiculous article that mislead the public.

I have read this interesting forum for years, almost since the beginning of my civil professionnal career more than 10 years ago, and went through all the step to the airliners I am flying now, and this forum has helped me a bit with all the information it gives, but I have always hesitated to post precisely to avoid what just happened. That is why I have only around 30 post within 1 year and half.
We are speaking to each other about one subject, the one of the thread, and I don't enjoy personnal attack.
I have to fly tomorrow early morning, and I fail to understand in what my day will be better, and in what I will feel good after having spoken with a fellow pilot, yes I fail to understand the point of speaking with you if we cannot focus on the subject and respect each other.
So I apologize if I said anything that could have hurt you in anyway, but I first didn't post here for that, and I am desapointed.

[Donald]

Dude,

I think you take your job way too seriously and make it sound like it's sooooo hard. A monkey could probably do your job.

This gem of a reply brought to you by the same fine aviator, who flies single pilot for the mighty military, yet will not accept a runway change while on approach because it's too hard to re-program the gps/fms and get out the new plate.



Why does the military use un-manned aircraft for so much work these days....?

[AuxBatOn]

Donald,

I never said my job couldn't be replaced by a computer. However, I don't think we can compare flying a tactical mission with flying from A to B in a comfy cockpit. But that's an other subject. (Oh, there is no FMS in a Hornet. VOR/DME/TACAN/ILS only. "FMS" is coming soon though! And I would advise any pilot flying by himself to tell ATC they are unable to change approach if they are not comfortable Normally ATC is pretty good with that..).

SunWoKong,

I do not feel attacked at all, however flying an airplane is not rocket science. If you took the comment personally, I appologize, by your job I meant any pilot job. That was my point. No need to make it look like it's something reserved for the "special". After all, the first american to go in space was an ape....

[flying4dollars]

In fairness to the captain of that flight, we can all sit here and armchair this to death, whether you're a pilot or not, doesn't matter. Unless any of us were in his shoes, we can't really sit here and judge his decision. He's a heavy jet captain, chances are his decision making skills are probably good enough to determine whether he felt it was appropriate to bring a person with some form of license (expired or not) into the right seat.

Whether this story is fabricated in light of this single pilot or no pilot airliner vision is another story.

[Meatservo]

However, I don't think we can compare flying a tactical mission with flying from A to B in a comfy cockpit.

So a monkey could do anyone's job except yours? It seems to me you have a very high opinion of yourself, and a very low opinion of others. I know how that feels. Having worked with a few of them in the high Arctic, my opinion of Military pilots has been, shall we say "lukewarm" at times. I have to remind myself that members of the Canadian Forces are heroes, because they are called upon at times to deliberately put themselves in harm's way, and also, I like to believe in the case of pilots, that we are all in this together. Your comments are offensive and unnecessarily provocative, AuxBatOn, because most of us civvy pilots at least, are trying to do the best we can in a hostile work environment, are fairly skilled at a highly technical endeavour with dire consequences if we ever @#$! up, and working way more hours to receive the equivalent pay to someone in another field with a similar education level. If flying seems so banal to you then why are you here, discussing it with people you clearly don't respect professionally? I have been flying for twenty years and I still find it challenging, am frequently exhausted, and often find it difficult to stay motivated when I hear idiotic comments about monkeys. Every year I meet and am forced to deal with human beings who can't do my job even though they are perfectly happy to say in their resume that they think they can. Don't talk to me about monkeys. And we lowly civvies are do not get our green socks, green longjohns, green undershirts, green shirts, pants and flightsuits, food, and roof paid for for our troubles. That's extra.

And I also think the story about the flight attendant is ridiculous.

[SunWuKong]

Auxbaton:

If you took the comment personally, I appologize, by your job I meant any pilot job. That was my point.

I respect animals, including monkeys, but pilot giving them their job, well I am not sure about the idea. You can try on your side if you like, but I won't. A human being today, maybe a computer tomorrow (at least for the military), but not sure about the monkey/ape thing.
I appreciate your effort to appologize though. Fine then.

SunWoKong,

That is not Sun wokong, but Sun wukong.

If you google it you will find:

Sun Wukong, known in the West as the Monkey King, is the main character in the classical Chinese epic novel Journey to the West (西遊記). In the novel, he accompanies the monk Xuanzang on the journey to retrieve Buddhist sutras from India.

Yes it means Monkey king...
That is fate I guess. Choosing this ID, than being called a monkey because I am an airline pilot... Maybe because I don't value enough my job, I have tried few times to find a more exciting job, I am missing the time I was flying piston, turboprop and bush aircraft. The positive point of your "insult" is that it made me deciding that from now on I will understand that I have to continue positively my career, understand I am responsible of hundreds of people every day, and remember what brought me here: my experience and passion.
I am not going to thank you for that though

No need to make it look like it's something reserved for the "special". After all, the first american to go in space was an ape....

I am not travelling into an automatic rocket, I am flying an airplane. I never said it is so special, I just said there is no use for a non qualified pilot in front of the controls in the situation the article talk about. But there is use for a flight attendant to be in the cabin when the passengers are aware there is a problem and when a crew member is sick.
If I have a problem with my washing machine I am not going to call an hairdresser, in what it makes anybody so special to say that?

I don't know why you have so little consideration (not to say look down or disdain)for a part of the industry you don't know. I sometime see in my company ex airforce/mili pilot coming in, and they are like all the others: they have to learn and practice in order to fly safely, they are not above or below the others newly hired from the civi world.

I do not feel attacked at all, however flying an airplane is not rocket science.

Who said that? And even though, rocket science is not flying an aircraft neither, so what?


Alright let's hope all the bad weather is cleared up. it's fine on my side.

Sun wukong the monkey

[TG]

So at that point it is unclear to me that the captain decision was a safe and smart one.

Dude,

Even if he was following SOP ?
This was a wise decision for all sort of reasons, one being good CRM.

[SunWuKong]

Hi there,
If that what you think, then good CRM it is... Maybe, who knows. Perhaps they avoided a crash by doing so. Everything is possible. It was just a point of view I could be wrong.

Anyway my company doesn't mention in their SOPs to call a FA to fill in the seat in case of pilot incapacity. My SOPs say call the FA in order to take care of the sick crew.
I guess (as I said above in one of my previous post) there is no easy answer.

CRM still have to respect commun sens though, it is not a religion. CRM also means giving task according to each person skills, it doesn't mean you have to give away as much task as cou can to as much people as you can see around you. Still need to be logical and efficient.
The thing is that if we agree that she was useless at the controls in this situation but only some marginal disturbance and good advertisement for the company and news papers, and at the same time somebody says it is good CRM, what is CRM then?

Having somebody next to you is maybe, at least psychologically, more comfortable when you have been used all of your professionnal life to see it occupied with one of your fellow colleague.

[TG]

CRM reviewed as Cabin Resource Management

Like you, I'm pretty sure he could have done it all by himself but still, any kind of help to ease the task...