xsbank wrote:Blah blah blah, the pilot screwed up. So its been 8 years and this guy has been living under this conviction and he thinks he has atoned for his transgressions enough so he is asking to have his punishment declared over, served, finished.
How long do you think is an appropriate amount of time to be punished? The courts thought that his criminal negligence was wrong, how long would you lynch-mob law-experts deem appropriate? Do you make your kid stand in the corner for three days to teach him a lesson when he screws up?
You narrow-minded, self-righteous, sanctimonious bozos. Even Karla Homolka got let out after 12 years.
Jesus christ, check your facts man! The guy didn't even spend any jail time - he got a 2 year suspended sentence which he did in the community, and I believe that is finished now. This isn't about avoiding punishment, it is simply about abdicating responsibility for his dangerous actions.
Bottom line is that if you do something wrong you should take the rap for it.
Question: if you were hiring a pilot, which would you prefer:
[1] Pilot who did something stupid causing a crash, and admits to the mistake.
or
[2] Pilot who did something stupid causing a crash and doesn't take any responsibility, blaming everyone else.
CpnCrunch wrote:
Bottom line is that if you do something wrong you should take the rap for it.
Question: if you were hiring a pilot, which would you prefer:
[1] Pilot who did something stupid causing a crash, and admits to the mistake.
or
[2] Pilot who did something stupid causing a crash and doesn't take any responsibility, blaming everyone else.
[3] I wouldn't hire a a pilot who crashed doing something stupid, in my mind he has poor judgement and shouldn't be flying at all. Not to mention a huge risk on my business and insurance rates.
CpnCrunch wrote:
Bottom line is that if you do something wrong you should take the rap for it.
Question: if you were hiring a pilot, which would you prefer:
[1] Pilot who did something stupid causing a crash, and admits to the mistake.
or
[2] Pilot who did something stupid causing a crash and doesn't take any responsibility, blaming everyone else.
[3] I wouldn't hire a a pilot who crashed doing something stupid, in my mind he has poor judgement and shouldn't be flying at all. Not to mention a huge risk on my business and insurance rates.
Sometimes things aren't always they way they appear unless you have intimate knowledge of the circumstances. In the case of Tayfel, it all became evident. This is not always the case in other incidents. Dig deeper to gather the truth because you may not be untouchable under the same circumstances Legoman. Oh, but you are likely too busy counting your nickels and dimes to figure out how you are going to pay alimony every month and still run your aviation business. To hell with the pilots that actually do the work for you, just a bunch of pions to you buddy.
XSbank, attempting to divert the discussion to the real problem is a joke and shows your arrogance. The guy left without enough fuel, and even factoring in for stronger winds where was his alternate and reserve fuel?
The guy screwed around with luck and lost, he made a poor decision and it cost someone their life and a loss to his family and for that society says he has to pay a price.
This Liberal mentality of "oh the poor little darling, its not really his fault, he did it because..........." is pure crap and its the reason why our society and our judicial system is so screwed up!!! Karla should still be in prison and if my kid screws up they pay the price accordingly and if they take a persons life they will still pay the price.
XS, weren't you upset with this site a while ago, that people were picking on you and you were going to leave? Maybe you should have stayed away? Exercise that right now!
CpnCrunch wrote:
Bottom line is that if you do something wrong you should take the rap for it.
Question: if you were hiring a pilot, which would you prefer:
[1] Pilot who did something stupid causing a crash, and admits to the mistake.
or
[2] Pilot who did something stupid causing a crash and doesn't take any responsibility, blaming everyone else.
[3] I wouldn't hire a a pilot who crashed doing something stupid, in my mind he has poor judgement and shouldn't be flying at all. Not to mention a huge risk on my business and insurance rates.
Sometimes things aren't always they way they appear unless you have intimate knowledge of the circumstances. In the case of Tayfel, it all became evident. This is not always the case in other incidents. Dig deeper to gather the truth because you may not be untouchable under the same circumstances Legoman. Oh, but you are likely too busy counting your nickels and dimes to figure out how you are going to pay alimony every month and still run your aviation business. To hell with the pilots that actually do the work for you, just a bunch of pions to you buddy.
The question asked was if I would hire a pilot who did something stupid causing a crash, and was given two conditions to that. My answer is that I would not hire a pilot that did something stupid causing the crash. I know that not all accidents are the same, but this one was clearly the pilots fault. As soon as he rotated he was breaking laws. He had a choice and as the PIC an important one. He made a bad call and should be responsible for it. It's like saying I am the mayor but I'm not responsible if my town is bankrupt. If you accept a job with poor pay, don't complain that it's poor pay. If you work for a dodgy operation, don't complain how unsafe they are.
If you takeoff with unserviceable equipment and inadequate fuel, don't complain and blame others when you crash.
Everyone knows the reputation of the company that was involved and their reputation was bad way before this happened. Even more of a reason to analyze the situation to make a proper decision.
I would argue that this is an industry wide problem with 703. I've seen it in so called good companies. Modifying paperwork to show that you are not overweight, flying a charter without a PPC and calling it a training flight on paper. The difference is that they haven't had anything happen yet to get caught. As long as the paperwork is good TC doesn't care. The sad thing is the only thing that will expose these things is an accident. TC is well aware that it is going on as they have enough experienced inspectors that have been in the industry.
Be man enough to stand up to your company if its unsafe, but I would suggest you have to documentation and proof to back yourself up. Provide alternatives to get the job done safely. Nobody wants their airplanes to crash.
I agree with flapless dork, this is very much a cover your ass industry. Transports covers theirs, companies cover theirs and as a pilot you should cover yours too. Dont expect the company especially a 703 operator come to defend you.
Slowstream, the reason I was considering leaving was because there were too many on here who had zero reading comprehension unless there was a little picture in each little box; the law-and-order rednecks who react to every person who screws up with a verbal lynching; those who piously close their eyes and expect the politicians to act like clergy and look after everything (Oh wait! They do - bend over); those who are so perfect and wonderful but so full of moral outrage that they think that anyone else who screws up should be punished for life; those who don't like what I say here and invite me to leave if not the site but the entire country; those who are so useless at structuring an argument that they can only conduct a personal attack on the writer. There are more, but that's enough for now.
Actually, the real reason I stayed on here is because I have been able to get under your skin, sweetheart.
Tayfel did some indefensible things in his last flight, things that have had a lasting effect on some families. If you read my other stuff I continuously preach safety and decry the loss of life. I also believe that the pilot is the last 'hole' in the safety Swiss cheese - if he can stop that last circumstance from aligning, he is a hero. Many of us have been able to prevent that last circumstance and we are still here. Many of us have developed the ability to see beyond the last circumstance and head off the other things that 'might' hurt us - the leaking float, the failed autopilot, the possibility that the flaps won't retract on the missed approach and there won't be enough fuel to go to the alternate. That is usually called "experience" or "hours" or something. Tayfel screwed up big time, he demonstrated an inability to head off that final circumstance.
I think he was punished enough for his screw-up, 8 years as a convicted criminal (anybody else see the courts as the wrong response to this type of thing?) is enough. He should be allowed to get on with his life. Re-fighting this old thread is a waste of time - it was done years ago.
My original comment was that Tayfel should be allowed to move on. Why won't you lot move on?
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"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Jaysus H Christ - it seems like everyone of these conversations ends up in an one side or the other either or debate....
No one thinks that the company or TC was gonna leap to this pilot's defense - at least no one who's been in this business more than 5 minutes. However, in the end Tayfel was the ONLY one to suffer criminal consequences, and there was .. without doubt or question ... more than enough criminal liability to go around. TC of course just keeps truckin along doing things as they've always done. Keystone was back in business awfully damn quick (although admittedly there were concessions to make that happen), but still the company moved right along.
Tayfel paid a price, as he should have, the others who were culpable did not.
Its time to let Tayfel get on with his life as the others have.
And frankly - if you're not even going to charge the others involved ....
I was in Manitoba at the time - I remember VERY clearly that this was the THIRD in as many really stupid instances.... no I don't think the pilot is THE ONLY ONE who should have faced the firing squad on this one... and as I recall there wasn't a pilot I knew in the community at the time who didn't feel the same way.
For any that remember Wapiti, the pilot, Eric Vogel, is forever saddened that nothing was learned. Every time there is another accident, I hear from him ... he still pays for his mistakes that fateful day over 20 years ago.
The case against Mr. Tayfel set a dangerous precedent, IMHO. I believe it is for that reason, and not because he does not feel remorse, that he continues to fight for his reputation.
This is a tough industry, which in truth is more about managing people than it is about flying/fixing aircraft. And then there's the whole profit margin concept - those in the business are all about business and everybody's good buddies until someone starts messing with a revenue-generating flight.
On the one hand, you have the known bad operators, that the industry continues to support because of either fear of repercussion, lack of concern for safety and professional standards, a very real need to gain much-needed experience in order to move on to bigger things, or perhaps just general apathy. Upon encountering bad operators, it would seem the obvious choice for the moral-minded is to steer clear and not condone bad practices. However economic conditions and lack of alternatives in a poor market don't always make choices obvious, or "obvious" choices easy for many. Consider too that the picture often looks different from the "inside" than it does from the "outside" - sometimes you don't realize how deep you're in it until it's too late to do anything about it. If you finally realize how deep you're in, usually you've waited so long to take action that it becomes difficult to make things right. There are many operators who take advantage of this, and know how to manage people (usually by manipulating fear and peer pressure) to get the job done in the way they want. They know there are plenty of replacement drones out there if you won't comply with their wishes.
But what about the middle-of the road operators, that do it "mostly" right, but fail miserably in a few key areas? What do you do when conditions in general are pretty good, but a few of those key areas are a cause for real concern and you can't get them addressed? What then? This type of situation can be even harder to deal with because there is usually no easy solution.
Either type of operator can be forced into change by an accident, but since accidents are the exception not the norm and we suffer from severe lack of regulatory oversight, there is no incentive for either operator to change and no support for those who wish to change the operation from within.
In this type of screwed up system I don't believe we have the right to condemn, nor condone the actions of the pilot in this case. Clearly he made many poor decisions, and clearly he was working for a company with poor operating standards. He has to look himself in the mirror each and every day, accept (or not) the responsibility for his actions and decide how to conduct himself from this point forward.
I believe that all we can do is hope to learn from observing his unfortunate circumstances and neither repeat his mistakes or support them in others. Some of the hate seething through on this board is discouraging to say the least.
We work in a harsh and unforgiving industry, populated with companies at polar opposites of the examples above, and every shade of grey in-between. Not one of us is perfect but we are most certainly responsible for our actions, our decisions and the example we set for others. Can we not focus our energy in strengthening each of our activities in this direction?
End rant - thanks for listening.
Kirsten B.
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“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart
"Some of the hate seething through on this board is discouraging to say the least."
Interesting comment, Kirsten. I had not really thought about it until now but certainly I am hated by many on here for what I think and write. If not for the writing skill, which will never approach his level, I feel a great affinity for Salman Rushdie!
Hey Salman, you and me, Bud!
Fancy that, being hated for what you think...
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"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
FlaplessDork wrote:I would argue that this is an industry wide problem with 703. I've seen it in so called good companies. Modifying paperwork to show that you are not overweight, flying a charter without a PPC and calling it a training flight on paper. The difference is that they haven't had anything happen yet to get caught. As long as the paperwork is good TC doesn't care. The sad thing is the only thing that will expose these things is an accident. TC is well aware that it is going on as they have enough experienced inspectors that have been in the industry.
Be man enough to stand up to your company if its unsafe, but I would suggest you have to documentation and proof to back yourself up. Provide alternatives to get the job done safely. Nobody wants their airplanes to crash.
I agree wholeheartedly. Even the big airlines pull stupid crap off. Look at the way they calculate the airplanes weight. There sure isn't any way that's not infallible!
foxmoth wrote:
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..............
I REALLY REALLY like this quote. The truth is we have all done it at one point or another. We have all pushed weather, all declined help we should have taken from ATC, all pushed fuel at one point or another. With or without realizing it. I may get grilled for saying this, but I wouldn't believe it if even one of us said "I've never ever done it."
Let's just make sure WE are not the ones to push things, and if everyone does their part, what do we have to worry about?
When I set out on my road trip 4.5 years ago to look for my first flying job with 200 hours under my belt. My Dad gave me some advice. He said "Never do anything in an Airplane that you would not want a professional lawyer, or a team of professional lawyers, grilling you across a court room about why you did what you did". This is a serious business we're involved in ladies and gentlemen. Never forget that. Fly Safe.
I certainly don't hate you, I don't know you, nor do you get under my skin, but thanks for thinking of me. Forums like these are in my opinion an arena for sharing info, ideas and gaining perspective. I've held steady to some of my opinions and at other times I've had my opinion changed or broadened. I think if you have to resort to name calling and some of the rants that I've read of yours then you lose creditability and it invites similar responses which quickly goes down hill and the subject is missed all together, but thats just my 2 cents. I welcome a good debate like a lot of people.
You're right about one thing we've all screwed up at one point and he screwed up big time, and its likely the way the cards fell for him which lead to the outcome it did.
I don't know if he's served his time, thats not up to me, but my question remains the same, is that enough time for a mans life?
I certainly don't hate you, I don't know you, nor do you get under my skin, but thanks for thinking of me. Forums like these are in my opinion an arena for sharing info, ideas and gaining perspective. I've held steady to some of my opinions and at other times I've had my opinion changed or broadened. I think if you have to resort to name calling and some of the rants that I've read of yours then you lose creditability and it invites similar responses which quickly goes down hill and the subject is missed all together, but thats just my 2 cents. I welcome a good debate like a lot of people.
You're right about one thing we've all screwed up at one point and he screwed up big time, and its likely the way the cards fell for him which lead to the outcome it did.
I don't know if he's served his time, thats not up to me, but my question remains the same, is that enough time for a mans life?
My guess is every day for the rest of his life Mr Tayfel will beat himself up for the mistakes he made that terrible day. He allready has a life sentence living with himself and frankly I am sick of your sanctimonious attitude. How many years in jail will satisfy you, 5, 10, 20 ..... will that bring back the dead passengers.... or just satisfy your sense of self-righteousness
If anyone here has a right to comment on whether Mr. Tayfel has paid a steep enough price, I think it is me.
My husband is gone. I believe that there were people who could have, should have, done things differently - and then I would not be "widow". Even so, I would not wish on any one of them what Mr. Tayfel has been through.
I certainly don't hate you, I don't know you, nor do you get under my skin, but thanks for thinking of me. Forums like these are in my opinion an arena for sharing info, ideas and gaining perspective. I've held steady to some of my opinions and at other times I've had my opinion changed or broadened. I think if you have to resort to name calling and some of the rants that I've read of yours then you lose creditability and it invites similar responses which quickly goes down hill and the subject is missed all together, but thats just my 2 cents. I welcome a good debate like a lot of people.
You're right about one thing we've all screwed up at one point and he screwed up big time, and its likely the way the cards fell for him which lead to the outcome it did.
I don't know if he's served his time, thats not up to me, but my question remains the same, is that enough time for a mans life?
My guess is every day for the rest of his life Mr Tayfel will beat himself up for the mistakes he made that terrible day. He allready has a life sentence living with himself and frankly I am sick of your sanctimonious attitude. How many years in jail will satisfy you, 5, 10, 20 ..... will that bring back the dead passengers.... or just satisfy your sense of self-righteousness
BPF,
If my question is self-righteous then maybe re-read my comment with the intent that it was meant, I would agree he's paying a price and if he will carry that for the rest of his life. I was not casting judgement, I was asking a question. If you consider my attitude sanctimonious feel free to pass over my post! I did not suggest a term, I did not, nor do I need to be satisfied with the term or suggest that it would bring closure for the family, as I said its not my job and once AGAIN madam it was a simple question!!
You might want to consider that others have experienced losses also and they may not share your level of forgiveness or understanding.
once again just my 2 cents and feel free to pass it over.
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Last edited by slowstream on Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
This is without a doubt a very sensitive topic, which appears at first glance to be about the conduct and consequences affecting one individual, but in truth is really about ourselves and the poor state of our respective professions.
Consider this:
We cannot change events that have already occurred.
We are not qualified to pass final judgment on another individual, or compare and decide the value of one life against another.
We cannot control or decide the level of remorse another individual should or should not feel, particularly with respect to actions and events beyond our direct experience.
We CAN choose to allow ourselves to be affected in such a way that we make a conscious effort to improve our own personal code of conduct and actively support those around us who make the same effort.
Have a great evening,
Kirsten B.
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“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart
I think this is really the meat of the matter here and bears repeating.
Widow wrote:The case against Mr. Tayfel set a dangerous precedent, IMHO. I believe it is for that reason, and not because he does not feel remorse, that he continues to fight for his reputation.
It also concerns me that there are some who are unaware of the significance of Mr. Tayfel's case.
YYZatcboy wrote:Sorry guys, I'm not familiar with this accident. Anyone have a link to the report/able to provide a summary of what happened?
Thanks!
Every pilot, every worker in this industry should make themselves familiar with the case. Mr. Tayfel's guilt and what he might deserve as punishment is less relevant here than the consequences for all of us should the case against him be successful.
Shiny Side Up wrote:I think this is really the meat of the matter here and bears repeating.
Widow wrote:The case against Mr. Tayfel set a dangerous precedent, IMHO. I believe it is for that reason, and not because he does not feel remorse, that he continues to fight for his reputation.
It also concerns me that there are some who are unaware of the significance of Mr. Tayfel's case.
YYZatcboy wrote:Sorry guys, I'm not familiar with this accident. Anyone have a link to the report/able to provide a summary of what happened?
Thanks!
Every pilot, every worker in this industry should make themselves familiar with the case. Mr. Tayfel's guilt and what he might deserve as punishment is less relevant here than the consequences for all of us should the case against him be successful.
Very much in agreeance. This is the first time ever in Canada that a pilot has been tried and convicted criminally for his actions. With a precedence based judicial system, Mr. Tayfel's case means we can all more easily be tried and convicted criminally for making mistakes in our jobs. Every pilot should study this case and learn from it.
As for the accusations that Mark Tayfel is trying to shift blame off of himself and onto everyone else, not taking responsibility for his actions, etc. that couldn't be farther from the truth. If you talk to the man for more than 5 minuets you'd know.
There is a big difference between breaking the law and criminal intent.
