Extreme nose-high unusual attitude recovery

[AuxBatOn]

If you're slow, an don't have authority on the ailerons/elevator, centralize everything, let the airplane sort itself out and recover from, most likely, a nose low U/A.

[Hedley]

when do we get our answer?

My answer to the General was "180 degrees of bank" which is a slightly odd way of saying an inverted, gentle, positive AOA pull through to the inverted.

Obviously life is complicated and one size does not fit all situations. If you have lots of airspeed - a bit unusual for a vertical upline, but ok - sure, a vanilla wingover might be an option. But as I said, if your airspeed is low, you may not wish to create a high yaw rate because of spin concerns.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Q: From an extreme nose-high attitude, what angle of bank is optimal for recovery?

:

Hedley

I am impressed.....with questions phrased like that like that, TC will soon be banging on your door asking you to "help" them write the next set of written exams

[Hedley]

Hey, I didn't make up the question - the General did!

Actually, I know the guy at Transport who is responsible for the written exams. He's a great guy and amazingly normal - you would have thought he would have been somewhat elliptical to talk to!

[Bede]

But as I said, if your airspeed is low, you may not wish to create a high yaw rate because of spin concerns.

What does airspeed have to do with it if you're well below the critical angle?

I should ask too: is there a reason why we're vertical? Is our vertical line intentional or unintentional? Are we practising aerobatics and we know how to get vertical, but nothing beyond that? Is this a loop with too slow/not enough G pullup?

[Hedley]

Let's stick with unintentional.

As far as the difference between a hammerhead (at zero mph) and a wingover at say 100 mph (pick a number) - the AOA of the inside wing is completely different.

Kicking a rudder at zero mph must be done very carefully, to avoid entering a spin. Trust me on this.

[Bede]

Let's stick with unintentional.

As far as the difference between a hammerhead (at zero mph) and a wingover at say 100 mph (pick a number) - the AOA of the inside wing is completely different.

Kicking a rudder at zero mph must be done very carefully, to avoid entering a spin. Trust me on this.

Don't worry Hedley, I trust you on aerobatic stuff, but let's just say you're at 0 mph, the aircraft is now accelerating at g down. Would the aircraft, not now just "flip" (sorry about the ignorant term) down into a vertical downline? Once in the downline, assuming you are accelerating at g, wouldn't the AOA be around 0, hence no stall/spin?

Now let's say you are vertical, you kick the rudder and you enter a spin as you cautioned. Is it an upright spin or inverted? Once a wing falls, couldn't you just let go of everything and the plane will enter a vertical downline?

[Strega]

360

[niss]

DO A BARREL ROLL!!!

[hairdo]

Don't worry Hedley, I trust you on aerobatic stuff, but let's just say you're at 0 mph, the aircraft is now accelerating at g down. Would the aircraft, not now just "flip" (sorry about the ignorant term) down into a vertical downline? Once in the downline, assuming you are accelerating at g, wouldn't the AOA be around 0, hence no stall/spin?[/quote]

You mean after the aircraft does a nice little tailslide and you then whip nosedown with enough momentum to end up in an inverted and now in a stall/spin? Correct me if I'm wrong here Hedley, but that seems to me what would happen in very high vertical (~90deg nose up) and no speed.

[Hedley]

Tailslides are fun, and after the pivot you are generally in pretty much a vertical downline, which is simple to recover from - in my experience, there isn't much yawing going on after the pivot, so no spin.

However, you don't want to do a tailslide. Ever. You will severely damage your flight controls with the air blowing backwards over them.

An inverted spin is child's play compared to a tailslide.

[Bede]

I guess you mean no tailslides in most non-aerobatic airplanes? What is difficult about a tailslide? (I'm not doing the AvCanada sarcasm thing.) How do you do it?

[Hedley]

Correct. Even a lot of aircraft certified in the aerobatic category cannot safely do a tailslide

You must very firmly center the stick, or you will break your aileron control system. Feet firmly on the rudders to avoid banging it to the stops, too. And for elevator, I use full forward for a canopy-down pivot which is positive G. If you really like negative G, you can use stick back, but be advised that if you let the speed build in the tailslide, the pivot can be quite violent, and most people don't like a lot of negative G.

It's important to realize that there is "old man" aerobatics - loops and rolls - and then there is Unlimited category / Airshow aerobatics. Very different.

[Bede]

Hedley,

Thanks for the instruction. Another question, how does one get into aero (both primary through to unlimited)? I see a catch 22: to get good, you need lots of practice/money; to get money, you need sponsors; to get sponsors you need to be good.

[Hedley]

Most people start out by getting some dual instruction on something like a Citabria or Decathlon. You really can't fly aerobatics without getting reasonably good at tailwheel first, so that's a place to start. I'm not a big fan of nosewheel aerobatic airplanes - most of them are pretty marginal performers - cessna aerobat, etc. Slow roll rate, no vertical, probably no inverted systems. Look at the IAC contest results - you will rarely, if ever, see a nosewheel acro airplane.

The most bang for the buck is a single seat Pitts, IMHO. You will have to spend some $$$ on some dual to learn to land and un-spin it, and basic acro, then you put as much 100LL through your engine as you can stand and get good at acro.

The best way to get good at acro is to have someone on the ground coach you on your maneuvers - close the loop, from a control theory standpoint. It's easy to fly a maneuver badly a thousand times - that's open loop. No feedback. But a guy on the ground with a clue and a handheld can quickly coach you into flying much better acro. This is really what goes on at both contests and training camps, but it doesn't need to be that formal.

A single seat Pitts is plenty for Sportsman and Intermediate, and even Advanced. But if you want to fly Unlimited, you probably want to get a composite monoplane of some sort.

A fascinating, economical step up from a single-seat Pitts is the Yak 55M. It has the supercharged russian radial engine, but it's metal instead of composite - like the Sukhoi - so it weighs more, so it won't have the awesome verticals. But it will happily fly Advanced and perhaps even some Unlimited, in the right hands. And, because it's metal you can park it outside all year long like a Russian tractor