yycflyguy wrote:Gino, there is talk that with this new CPA with a new tier II that the pilots hired for SkyRegional will be put on the ACPA seniority list. BOTL. It is more complicated (read "dirty") than what you present. The politics behind it all are very significant. There is a very close relationship with the ex-SkyService pilot union president and ACPA's.

WTF?!?!?!

Holy hell, this just keeps getting better!?!

holy hijack batman! I knew ac was only going into there to screw jazz pilots!

I think race to the bottom is the apropriate comment. AC will slash prices till Deluce goes broke. Its all Deluce vs. AC. remember the whole deluce getting free flights on ac for life....awesome lol.

AC is just doing its typical predatory tactics that drove both ac and canadian broke before all this.

the problem with jazz is their management doesn't play that game.they seem intent on making a profit.....what a thought!

AC will slash prices till Deluce goes broke. Its all Deluce vs. AC

They don't even need to slash prices to do that - the huge majority of Porter's business traffic ONLY fly on Porter because they have no other option out of the city centre - the allure of frequent flyer points and connections onto a worldwide network will prove difficult, if not impossible for Porter to counter

AC is just doing its typical predatory tactics that drove both ac and canadian broke before all this

How is breaking up a monopoly a predatory tactic? Why shouldn't anyone else be able to operate from YTZ?

i agree that breaking the monopoply is good, if the market will support it.

my suggestion is as soon as ac is in place, fares will drop way below break even prices till someone is broke.

All we do is speculate folks, every time the news flash comes up!

Ground handling....they can hire any g.h. agency for minimum wage or offer the bid to their existing AC staff (like they had before) and have them move there. Not as cheap as first option.

Driving the wages down? How do we know?...anyone out there had an interview with these guys yet? Did they say how much are they offering?

I can go on and speculate things and tell you that I heard from a guy who got an interview and told me it was 95K/year but I'm just tossing numbers then....IMHO I can't see them paying less then Porter...

Okay, We need to look at this from a different perspective and not be shortsighted by looking at the wage alone.

Lets just say the starting wage is:Capt 95K and FO 45K (I am just picking numbers here as I do not know what the starting wage will be at sky regional)

Both are higher than Jazz, Porter, Etc. However, this is a start up airline, therefore the wages will be the starting wage for all pilots.

The Average Jazz Capt (25, 20 years in) makes more than that. The average Jazz FO (15,10,5 yrs) also makes more than that.

Also, we need to look at the bells and whistles.

Will the Skyregionals pilots have a pension?
What will their perdiems be like? work rules?, benefits?

This is called recycling of pilots. This has been happening in the States. a Mainline Carrier has Airline A (Established carrier) doing their feed. Airline B comes in as a startup airline with a mainline CPA. Mainline slowly farms out flying from Airline A to B. Eventually, airline A pilots are laid-off from airline A and force to start all over at airline B.

BTW Mainline pilots are not protected from being recycled either.

At least the 757 pilots at Jazz are senior pilots making the top salary wage at Jazz.

Never mind

Deleted by me
600RVR

When a new airline does it it's competition, when AC does it is predatory

It is only predatory when the purpose is to kill the prey. In other words when a larger or richer company comes in and reduces prices to below the cost of the competitor while taking a loss, or reducing costs to well below normal market pricing with the purpose of removing competetion from the market place.

Example: Porter starts flying to YSB and sets their price, Air Canada immediately lowers their price for only that flight time to match them and $5 less. I heard lots of people complain about predation. That is just good competetion. In other cases especially when Westjet was starting Air Canada would drop their prices to below their own cost and take a loss in an attempt to maintain market. Air Canada since ceasing to be a crown corp has now been cited 4 times by the competion tribunal for preditory pricing. I don't see that happening again but do see a senario for a great battle.

IMHO I think it will be far less damaging to have AC there than most think. If you want to operate a successful restaurant you put it where there are lots of restaurants. I think the additional draw of traffic to the island will be good for all. With the slot allotment the way it is there are still too many other routes that porter does that are very successsful for 46 slots (23flights)at the island to kill the whole company. Especially when Porter has 156 slots (78 flights) and half that again from other out stations to other destinations.

Good luck to all involved in that.

As for the Jazz/AC/ACPA/SKY thing... 'this isn't much more tha AC's sense of entitlement', thats a quote from a retired regional manager for AC. I don't know that I agree but if I were working for Jazz, or AC I would watch for backflow and outsourcing. It will happen. Look south. He who can be paid with pesos wins the contract.

beast wrote:

AC will slash prices till Deluce goes broke. Its all Deluce vs. AC

They don't even need to slash prices to do that - the huge majority of Porter's business traffic ONLY fly on Porter because they have no other option out of the city centre - the allure of frequent flyer points and connections onto a worldwide network will prove difficult, if not impossible for Porter to counter

AC is just doing its typical predatory tactics that drove both ac and canadian broke before all this

How is breaking up a monopoly a predatory tactic? Why shouldn't anyone else be able to operate from YTZ?

AC may hope to entice passengers with quintuple Aeroplan miles, $10 fares and connections (but only from YUL, I should add), but remember that they have only 30 slots at the island.
How exactly are 15 round trips to YUL per day supposed to appeal to the high yield-time sensitive business traveller? And when do you think they will be allocated these slots? Peak times, I don't think so.
Don't forget who owns the terminal and infrastructure...

How about this from the interview,

Sky is paying hourly and salary not 95k to start.
Be realistic this is a start up and there are only 75 seats behind you.
Depending on how much you fly you might be lucky to make near 70k
10 days off a month.

airliner wrote:How about this from the interview,

Sky is paying hourly and salary not 95k to start.
Be realistic this is a start up and there are only 75 seats behind you.
Depending on how much you fly you might be lucky to make near 70k
10 days off a month.

Did you personally go to the interview?

If yes, what else can you say about it?

Somebody has to have feedback from the interview. Nobody cares to share?

B.

Maybe the pay and working conditions are so crap, they had to sign a non-disclosure agreement. lol

The rumour is...
for whatever reasons, AC wants to bury Porter come hell or high water. Simple and clear! Is that going to happen? Who knows? However, United/Continental and AC are all jockeying for position in YTZ.

Apparently they"ll start with 5 aircrafts, they need 4 a day ( I supposed 1 spare to start with ). 3 aircafts out of YUL on the morning, 1 out of YTZ. 15 flights a day from monday to friday. A little bit less on week-ends.
3/4 of the crews based out of YUL. Looking now for 34 pilots.
The contract with AC is for 5 years. The benefits are still to be determined ( will have passes, insurances, 2 weeks vacation after a year in service....)
Base salary, capt : 52000$ + 23$/hrs Flight credit = approx 75000$ ( 80 to 85 hours a months )
F/O : 31200$ + 14$/hrs = 46000$ ( same conditions as above )
Looks like they will be no biding for schedules, blocks will be built and assigned . Approx 10 days OFF a month, some stbys and reserve ( grey ) days. Expected to fly 4 to 6 legs a day.

sad to hear the salaries are that low... $75K / yr for a Q400 cpt and thats only if you work your ass off.... very very sad

What is Jazz's 1 level Capt pay assuming they hire direct entries?

Base salary, capt : 52000$ + 23$/hrs Flight credit = approx 75000$ ( 80 to 85 hours a months )
F/O : 31200$ + 14$/hrs = 46000$ ( same conditions as above )

I wouldn't want to be reserve...no flying = no flight credit...no flight credit...means your taking home base pay.

Reminds me of medevac days...Base pay plus 10 cents a mile.

quickflight wrote:
IMHO I think it will be far less damaging to have AC there than most think. If you want to operate a successful restaurant you put it where there are lots of restaurants. I think the additional draw of traffic to the island will be good for all.

I fully agree. AC's entrance to the island legitimizes Porters service. Additional frequencies out of any airport, draws customers. It's a known fact. As for profitability, that remains to be seen.

If AC's strategy is stop all airline flying out of the island, so as to not maintain two staffed bases. they will have to everything to beat Porter to death. It may work or it may backfire. As much as loyaty programs draw traffic, convenience can be a bigger draw. If it wasn't a bigger draw, one could argue that Porter would not be doing so well.

There are a lot of cities that have mutiple airports offering scheduled service. London has five airports. Paris has two. Dallas has two. LA has 2-3. With enough travelling population coupled with chronic traffic, secondary airports become more appealing.

Interesting times ahead.

I just looked at Jazz's Capt's 1st year pay on Airline Central and it is the same as Air Canada Sky Regional.

BLZD1 wrote:I just looked at Jazz's Capt's 1st year pay on Airline Central and it is the same as Air Canada Sky Regional.

First, I think that is the old pay scale on Airline pilot pay.

Second, Jazz has a pension and benefits, that is all part of the compensation package. Also from what I read the working conditions at Sky Regional don't even compare to Jazz.

Localizer,

The issue was never to match Jazz compensation. The issue was to avoid igniting a race to the bottom.

Given time these guys and gals will take care of themselves. The starting point for Sky does not look to me as a race to the bottom threat.

Competition was going to enter at some point. The level at which they are entering is to me a relief.

The whole "Air Canada is predatory" argument is weak... and I'm a WestJet employee. Porter has had a monopoly at YTZ for 4 years - losing $40 million over that period, no less - and if it were at any other Airport the competition would've responded a hell of a lot quicker. I hope that anyone who wants to point the finger at Air Canada (or WestJet) for the demise of Porter takes a real hard look at the recent prospectus that shows Porters financial weakness even before the arrival of Air Canada.

Any demise of Porter is a direct result of its own mismanagement.



..... having said that, I wish everyone the best (and NO, I don't want to see anyone out of a job).

Brick Head,

Seriously? You consider this a relief?

AC - EMB 175 Capt. - approx. $130,000 (75 Seats)
Jazz - CRA705/Q400 Capt. - approx. $110,000 (75 Seats)
Sky Reg - Q400 Capt - approx. $75,000 (75 Seats)

Not to mention only 10 days off a month ... maybe. You may end up on reserve or drafted in those 10 days. This is going backwards ... no matter how you cut it. No pension, benefits to be determined .. I can't say this doesn't represent a race to the bottom.

Loc

You can not expect Sky Reg to start at 16th year Jazz Capt. pay. They are starting at 1st year Jazz Capt Pay. That is pretty good considering they are brand new and no union yet. As far as work conditions let them get started and you will see changes. The new Jazz pay tables has a bit of 757 pay in it so you have to subtract that from Jazz pay! (Status Pay)

I figured Sky Reg would be starting around $55,000 to $60,000 a year for a Capt. I am glad I was wrong-!!

As per Airline Pilot Central Forums.

AC - EMB 175 and 190 Capt. - approx. $116,000 - $137,700 (73 - 93 Seats)
Jazz - CRA705/Q400 Capt. - approx. $75,000 - $110,000 (75 Seats)
Sky Reg - Q400 Capt - approx. $75,000 - ??? (75 Seats)

Jazz's CASM problem is not the pilots salary! It is the shareholders taking money out of AC through Jazz that is the problem. Joe is screwing the company to please the shareholders. Your union needs to address this so you can be competive in the market.