The Pope

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:01 pm

I don't like to see anyone suffer or die, but I hate people who unquestioningly worship an alpha-chimp. Let's evolve folks.

Is it true that he was elected to have a hotline to God? Gimme a break.

Sure, he was an important political figure, but so is George Bush, and he's a moron.

Don't get me wrong, I'll still have a shot in his honour, but I won't ever believe in the crap that comes out of the catholic church.

End rant.

-istp

Cool Rythms! · Post by **Cool Rythms!** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:04 pm

He is indeed gone now. He did his work in the name of God and in the name of the church. And now, may he rest in peace. My prayers will be said tommorow in church. Am I the only christian on this forum, or is it just full of people, who are disrespectful and have nothing good to say about a good man who loved everyone.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:39 pm

ISP

That was great.

Cool Rythms,

The man, nor the institution, does not love everyone - gays as the prime example there, many more where that came from.

Go to church and do your thing, but remember, when the lights go out - they're out for good. Oh, while you're there, why don't you ask why all the child-molesting "Father's" arne't in jail? Can you get back to me on that one?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:41 pm

I also am wondering about the child molesters and all the high ranking officials who enabled them by shifting them around rather than putting them behind bars where they belong.

As I understand it Cardinal Law of Boston was under great pressure from the US Justice department for the mess in his area and I understand that is now in Rome out of reach of the US authorities , but maybe I'm mistaken.

Cat

Cool Rythms! · Post by **Cool Rythms!** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:06 pm

Child molesting fathers, child molesting celebrities (Michael Jackson), Husbands who beat and kill their wives, natural disasters, I could go on. We don't live in a perfect world, unfortunately. All the more reason, why we need to stay close to God. Sure, some people don't support many of John Paul's causes, but you can be sure he always meant well.

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:23 pm

[quote="sky's the limit"]
The man, nor the institution, does not love everyone - gays as the prime example there, many more where that came from.

His stand (and the stand of other priests) has always been one of "love the person, hate the sin." In this case, the question is whether or not homosexuality is a sin or not. The Pope believed it was and he stood by his case. Unfortunately, we cannot tell for sure who is right on this issue. My personal opinion is that the church/Bible have been wrong before, so maybe they are wrong on this issue. I am not convinced though either way. But whether being gay is a choice or not makes no difference to me as I will treat that person with the same respect and dignity that I hope they would show me. Jesus clearly taught this in all his works and teachings. He never condemned anyone (he may have spoken against the sin, but he did not turn away from the sinner). Pope JP clearly demonstrated this when he visited the person who tried to kill him. The Pope not only forgave the guy, but he hugged him and kissed him as well.

Also, do not think that having disagreements with the Catholic church (or any church for that matter) makes you any less Christian/holy, because it does not. I consider myself to be religious, yet I do not agree with everything that the Pope stood for. Similarly, I have spoken with many fellow Catholics (including priests) who also have disagreements with issues like homo-sexuality, birth control, divorce, women in the church, etc.

If we only focused on "loving our neighboor as ourself" these problems wouldn't exist. But this is clearly a pipe dream.

Sky's the limit wrote: Go to church and do your thing, but remember, when the lights go out - they're out for good. quote]

Are you sure about that? How do you know for sure? Have you experienced death to know what it is like? Have you spoken to others who have died?

Ray-Ban · Post by **Ray-Ban** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:29 pm

If God created man...Who created God

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:03 pm

LH · Post by LH » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:47 pm

Considering all the people who have been raped, murdered tortured, lives destroyed and wars started over disagreements about religion, it boggles my mind that we still carry on doing the same thing over and over and over. People believe what they believe and in whatever deity they believe in and it's a wholly personal thing, like what kind of underwear they like or on which side they like to sleep. I believe that it's safe to say that the Pope and his Office contributed greatly to what happened in Poland to rout Communism and that was also a catalyst that contibuted to Berlin Wall coming down. I don't particularly care if the Pope contributed, the Catholic Church, the Free Masons, the Islamic faith, the Greek Orthodox Metropolitan, the Montreal Canadiens or the Canadian Legion. ANYONE or organization that contributed to that downfall and removal of that Wall should be honoured. It appears from documented and reported fact that the Pope played a large, although exactly unknown role, in that downfall so he should be honoured for that reason alone. That states nothing either about his assistance given to the Polish Underground during WW2 in Poland when he was a lowly Priest there and in doing so, put himself in great danger. He did more for this world than I ever will and now that he's gone, I'll accord him the same respect I'd expect if I did either of those things mentioned.......and neither he nor I could walk on water either.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:58 pm

C-HRIS

Can you be sure? I can sit and rationally think long and hard about all these subjects, and come to the logical conclusion that not only does God not exist, he most certainly doesn't subscribe to the most corrupt, political, power mongering institution ever organized by MAN. That being the Catholic Church in case you don't follow.

I'm quite happy to see my life as finite, live every day as though it is my last, and take responsibility for my actions, not abdicate that to a church. Does the church do good things? Of course. Are they responsible for most of the anguish seen in the world throughout history and up to today? You bet they are.

God is a creation of man, and one that is growing more obsolete by the day. If you need spirituallity, go for it. Just don't impose the Christain(or any other for that matter) dogma on me, or the rest of society that doesn't want to hear it.

Stop harbouring child molesters, stop starting wars, stop excluding large parts of our society (gays and lesbians, women), stop putting fear into people for things that come naturally (like sex, we are animals after all), stop converting people who have lived by thier own beliefs for millenia (that's for all you "missionaries." Could there be anything more arrogant?), stop trying to prevent women from choosing what happens to thier bodies, and for God's sake (pardon the pun), stop imposing your so called "sins" on everyone. I've had enough of hearing how immoral homosexuals are while "good Christians" like Bush and the gang run around the planet causing pain and suffering, while ignoring the real problem spots.

Organized religion has propegated itself through fear, the persecution of those who don't believe, and the general ignorance of society over the past 2000+years. Enough.

Don't you find it beautifilly ironic that the Cardnal College has to go to such extreme measures to prevent the 118(or so) holiest people in the Western world from decit, bribery, cheating and power mongering when voting in the new pontif?

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:47 am

Just saw a documentary on the Popes life on CBC, If you get the chance to watch it, It definetly opened my eyes to some of the events he influenced during the cold war. Religeon aside you got to respect the man.

I couldnt go that long with out poon tang

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:21 am

Rayban,

That is an excellent and fair question to ask. Strangely enough, I was speaking to a theology professor the other day and asked him that very question. I was told that God "always was and always has been." He is a self-created entity, if it helps to think of Him in this way.

Did this answer satisfy me? Not really. Will it satisfy you or anyone else's curiosity? I doubt it. But, does it really matter if we know where God comes from or not? Do we not, as humans, accept many things that we do not understand or cannot explain? Science has still yet to find explanations for many events- human existence is still one of them. I treat my faith in the same way. I accept the fact that there is a God, even though I cannot understand Him. To be perfectly honest, I don't think any human would be able to understand what goes on in God's "mind." Can you expect a dog to sit through a lecture on aerodynamics and comprehend it? Nope. A dog and a human are 2 completely different forms of being with different minds and different levels of intelligence. Similarly, a human and a God are not of the 2 forms.

So how can one prove whether God exists or not? Many have tried to use logic or philosophy, and one usually comes to the conclusion that there is no God. There is no arguing with the logic they use, as it all appears sound. I have taken several philisophy courses, and it seems that all of the profs are atheists as well. The problem I see is how they are applying their logic. I would argue that one cannot use "human" logic to proove there is a higher being. It is a matter of faith- you either believe or you don't. Can we understand why God allows suffering? Can we understand why God allows death? Can we understand why God would send someone he loves to hell? Again, I really doubt it. You can read the Bible and it will give answers to those questions, but whether or not you accept them as true or as good explanations is another issue.

Interestlingly enough though, I went to a recent presentation from a prof with a Phd in Math and philisophy. He actually used logic to prove the existence of a God. I didn't quite follow the entire thing, as I am not familiar with mathematical logic. But his entire conclusion was based on his definition of a God- a self-caused, unique entity.

But going back to the whole idea of "where did God come from?" I can easily turn the tables on the atheists and ask a similar question. For all you that believe that the world was created by some big-bang, what got the process all started? This is exactly the problem that exists with the current theory of evolution, and is why many people accept a theory of theistic evolution (i.e. most christians do not doubt evolution, but they believe God got the "ball rolling".) If something in this universe cannot from nothing, then it is impossible to explain how the world was created. And the philospher will be running around in circles trying to find an explanation to satisfy their logic. I find it all pretty hypocritical.

Sky's the limit,

Can I be 100% sure in my beliefs? No. Am I confident and pleased with what I believe in? You bet. It's hard to explain what exactly I feel, but I am strongly convinced that there is somebody watching over me. Again, this is my belief, and I will not try to impose them on you or anyone. I will gladly talk about it and share my beliefs with anyone who asks though.

I understand and agree that there are problems of corruption with the Catholic chruch. This should not, however, be used as some form of proof that there is no God. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. I'm sure that God would come down pretty hard on some of the priests in today's society. He wouldn't like how they preach love, but their actions reveal otherwise (look no further than Rev. Felps). He wouldn't like how many priests live very wealthy lives (just look at the Vatican- who wouldn't want to live there!). He probably wouldn't like how high officials in the church have all these fancy clothes/hats, gold rings, etc that they wear so people are all aware of their positions- heck, Jesus road around on a donkey and probably only wore some type of simply cloth around his body!

So do not look to people like this to be inspired by faith. Rather look to the works of people like Mother Theresa or Oscar Romero. If you really want to learn what a true Christian should believe in, read the 4 Gospels (matthew, mark, luke, john) and pay close attention to what Jesus does and says we should do. I believe Mother Theresa summarized everything with her life. Jesus himself said there are only 2 commandments that matter- love God and love one another. Unfortunately, many people, including priests, do not always follow what Jesus said.

Also, I just wanted to mention that the Pope and Catholic church did not support the wars in Iraq. Nor do they agree with capital punishment. The Pope actually spoke out against both Bushes and against the affluence that most Americans live in. Pope JPII also apologized in 2000 for the crusades and for failing to do more for the Jews during the holocaust. Clearly, the church has its faults, but at least they are starting to show signs of change.

As far as abortion and divorce go, I don't think the Church will change their minds about these issues.

As far as contraception and celibacy within the church go, I do think and hope they change their policies on these issues.

I hope I wasn't too long-winded. Again skys the limit, I am not trying to impose my beliefs on you. I can accept the fact that there are people who do not believe; I have brothers and friends who have the exact same opinion as you do. But if anyone asks me a question or starts to knock religion, I will defend myself and my beliefs, and that is all I am trying to do here.

Sulako · Post by **Sulako** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:36 am

Are they looking for a new pope yet?

//still on EI

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:54 am

Sulako you have my vote.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:56 am

In no way am I equating the distasteflu things happening in the chuch with proof that there is no God. For that, I just have to sit down and look at all the facts, history, study human needs and vulnrebilities. It's my conclusion.

I do agree with many things in your post. I, was rised Catholic until about grade 8, I've been there, heard the retoric and rejected it. I find it very interesting what people take from watching the same program. That documentary on the Pope's life for example. I saw outdated ceremony, political meddling (regardless of the cause), infighting, and decite. Intresting.

You name some great people who've done some great things, all of them could have been accomplished without religion. Mother Teresa was great, but for ever one of her, there are countless "missionaries" running around Africa teaching people to fear God and not use contraceptives. This has been the case for centuries. Remind me how India has a Christian population again? Oh, and Japan, most of the South pacifc... on it goes.

The way I see it, my opinion, is that if you call yourself Catholic, you buy into the institution, and all that goes with it. Are there lots of people in the church who are good? Yes, but there's lots of people in the Army in Iraq who are good too, but they're still in Iraq, where most Iraqi's don't want them. If you are Catholic, I think you have a responsiblity to stop all those things I mentioned in the last post, clean it up, refuse to tolerate that type of behaviour, and policy.

Why are religious people so threatened by homosexuality? Why is divorce a bad thing? The way I see it, divorce is finally allowing women to make a choice not to be dependant and stuck in a marriage that is not working. I think divorce is a good thing. Our society and culture are changing rapidly, the institution of marriage is not, it is still not viewed as an equal partnership - let there be divorce I say. Why does the church consistantly seek to protect it's own rights, yet deprive those same rights to others?

If you need to feel that "someone is watching over you," who am I to question that, but I feel strongly that this need not be the case. There are many things in life that we can draw strength from, and that contribute's to my belief in myself, and my wife(Justice of the peace of course), and my family. Maybe those needing religion have a need to belong to something? I don't, or at least not enough to allow me to look past all the corruption and BS associated with the church.

Anyway, all I ask is that the wrongs with the church be righted, respect be given equally to everyone, and that people think about what it is they're actully buying into.

Happy Sunday.

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:09 am

Good call Haza.

SULAKO FOR POPE!!!:prayer:

I want him to be king, AND pope.

-istp

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:12 am

KING OF THE POPES!

RIP - Richard Harris

LH · Post by LH » Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:57 pm

Anyone here who attempts to think or reason like any entity that MAY have created all we see, "doesn't have both oars in the water" or is "one sandwich short of a full picnic". Experts tell us that at best, Man uses an average of 1/10th of his full brain capacity. I suggest strongly that we use the full 100% first before we start trying to think or reason on the same level as any supposed God or other Being with those supposed powers. Those that can disprove/prove any facts have gone to some other "supposed" side and we can't consult with them on facts. So the jury will never "come in" on any of these discussions until we are all popping up daisies. Religions have been around since the days of the cave man and if a Man called Jesus Christ had never appeared on earth, Man would still be worshipping something and still killing and maiming over it. Those that believed in nothing would also be there helping him at the same time.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:52 pm

Who was it that said religion is the Opiate of the masses?

mental vomit · Post by **mental vomit** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:19 pm

Karl Marx did (but spelled religion correctly), and you'd love his version of a governing body for aviation

Cool Rythms! · Post by **Cool Rythms!** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:01 pm

Some people just never cease to amaze me.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:26 pm

" Some people just never cease to amaze me. "

What is it that amazes you C.R.?

Cool Rythms! · Post by **Cool Rythms!** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:12 pm

I was actually refering to some of the things I'm reading in this post. I was raised as a christian and although I did'nt support the Pope on all issues, I still respected him as a man of God.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:55 pm

I can see nothing wrong with that C.R., from my observations of mankind in many parts of this world I have learned to try and respect everyones beliefs as long as they do not harm others.

The pope's passing is a very big event on this planet and I trust he will find happiness in another realm if one exists.

Me I am probably an agnostic, but still not even sure of that.

Cat.