Most important type of flying in aviation?

[Heliian]

Flight training is where you start, but most of aviation is important. As someone who makes a living at it, I will never find it unimportant. Medivac, passenger transport, crop spraying, search and rescue and fire fighting are also highly important. Aviation opens up the world and allows you access to places untouched by man.

Can you think of the least important type of flying?

[Beefitarian]

I agree, but I have a comment to make: Your responses to .'s comment seem focused on primary flight instruction. While this is an honourable sentiment, why not consider also the role of the training captain at an airline?

Exactly, who it is you are training is not as important as your quality of training.

Unfortunately there are few industry training captains that are motivated to teach in the micro controlled FTU sector for two reasons.

The first is the hourly pay is an insult.

Secondly they generally would be unable to teach in the mindset that TC demands.

Hedley has it correct, start them out on a Cub on a grass field and once they master the stick and rudder skills then finish the training on a FTU airplane.

I think the comment is not regarding "training a Captain recieves" it's the training he gives on the job.

In my opinion it's not the hourly rate that sucks as an instructor. It's the fact that you likely can't work 40 hour weeks due to weather etc. Flight training is allready very expensive for someone that's going to become a pilot and have to try to pay back loans if they don't have rich parents. What hourly rate do you want? Because it's going to be directly paid for by the students. If you're trying to promote the Pitts ranch or whatever let me know so I can sit down and shut it.

Finally, what if the tail wheel used was a maule or something that can carry two typical North American males?

[Cat Driver]

In my opinion it's not the hourly rate that sucks as an instructor. It's the fact that you likely can't work 40 hour weeks due to weather etc.

Who fly's 40 hours a week as an instructor?

What does an instructor get paid per flying hour today?

If an instructor were allowed to teach PPL's without all ths costs involved in getting, and supporting an FTU there would be enough profit to make a living from the flying.

For instance if I were to do any training in my Cub I could pocket $100.00 per flight hour charging the going rate for a Cessna 152 or whatever.

[Beefitarian]

Dude, did you just agree with me that instructors are typically geting less than 40 hours work per week?

What's your dual rate on the cub and is 290lbs too heavy or not?

[Cat Driver]

Dude, did you just agree with me that instructors are typically geting less than 40 hours work per week?

My comment was it is very unlikely any instructor would be able to fly 40 hours a week as that is almost seven hours of flight time a day.

What's your dual rate on the cub and is 290lbs too heavy or not?

With limited fuel yes I would be able to legally fly with a 290 pound person in the front seat.

I do not have a dual rate as I am not in the business of teaching anymore as I am retired......but I am thinking about maybe doing some training in the future.

My rate in the Cub would be around $150.00 dual or maybe a little more depending on the cost of fuel etc.

[Beefitarian]

You're in Ontario arn't you?

[Cat Driver]

No on I live on Vancouver Island.

[Beefitarian]

In that case how old is your couch?

I have a bad back and if I'm going to be taking some re-currency/tail wheel training I don't want to risk injury. I suppose we could work out some deal where I bring a new couch and leave it behind as partial payment.

[Cat Driver]

To be truthful I am not even sure if or when I would be able to do any flying of any kind as due to my present situation I am neither physically or mentally fit to fly.

But come spring I hope to be in shape to think about flying again.

[Driving Rain]

I'd have never had a career in aviation had it not been for a thoughtful and carrying instructor. I was about 10 or 15 hours short of completing my CPL and was unfortunate that I was witness to a horrific crash that took the life of a 20,000 hour AC pilot and came close to taking mine. I worked at the school also as I was attending a nearby collage. This instructor noticed that I had lost my drive to compete my training and sat me down at the picnic table and had a long talk with me. Back in the late 60s you couldn't buy a job in the industry. Coupled to that and the reality of what I'd witnessed I no longer cared.
He told me that if I didn't complete my training I would regret it the rest of my life. He talked me into completing and got me through my flight test.

As most of you know, I just retired after a long and rewarding career. I never forgot what he did for me and I decided to track hm down as he was now a retired AC Capt. living in Georgia. I thanked him from the bottom of my heart. I never forgot what he did for me.
Being a good instructor means more than just teaching people how to fly.

Good to have you back . I wish you all the best.
Pete

[tallfield]

Interesting thread. I completed my ppl less than a year ago, and I am about halfway thru my cpl. My first instructor was great...excellent teacher, very enthusiastic about flying and supportive. Loads of positive reinforcement mixed with just enough strong "what the hell are you doing..." when it was necessary. Second instructor just as good...younger but just as positive and very knowledgeable. For the commitment and skill set they bring to teaching it is definitely unfair to not earn a decent return.

[Cat Driver]

Thanks Pete:

It seems like only yesterday Pene and I were at your home......it has to be twenty five years or more ago, as you know we were more than married she was my full time companion and I nearly died with her and quite frankly still may.

She picked out a new motorhome for me so I would have some place besides the house to live while I deal with life from here on.

Maybe come spring I will drive it to Ontario and visit you again.

For the commitment and skill set they bring to teaching it is definitely unfair to not earn a decent return.

Tallfield it is beyond unfair, it is a sad commentary on the whole system has lost contact with compassion for others.

Maybe when I get better I will use my background and contacts to try and make the industry better.

Like Pete said some of us still remember the good people and there are still some left who may join in bring about a change for the better.

Widow sure gave us a benchmark to try and reach for trying to better the industry and she was not even a member of the industry.

[Hedley]

Maybe come spring I will drive it to Ontario and visit you again

You're always welcome at CYSH, .! Just don't bring that damned Cri-Cri with you - I am already drowning in a sea of airplanes

[Cat Driver]

Hedley come spring I hope to make the trip, as you know we were planning on stopping on the way back from NFLD in the Husky in June, we never ever dreamed she would get such a fatal type of cancer and not be able to make the trip.

For what it is worth I have learned a lot from you here and would feel privileged to some day fly with you.

[Beefitarian]

To be truthful I am not even sure if or when I would be able to do any flying of any kind as due to my present situation I am neither physically or mentally fit to fly.

But come spring I hope to be in shape to think about flying again.

No worries. I'm more bark than bite. I'd love to get checked out on a cub someday God willing.

In reality I've got little kids, and so far I'm too chicken to go for a fresh round of, "Can I have a new medical with my bad back at this weight?" if I can somehow get my business out of the red and everything aligns we'll see. You just relax and take care of yourself. We lost my wife's step dad last year to cancer so I know I can't fully understand your loss but I'm pretty sensitive about it.

[Driving Rain]

Check your PM .

[Widgeon Guy]

I would say Instructors are setting the bar for how fast a new pilot excels in the industry or kills himself and others. I grew up working on aircraft in the north bush charter and southern crop applicators both outfits were owned by seasoned family members who flew all there lives and could out fly superman. But could not instruct a bag boy how to open a bag. In the early seventies i took lessons at Aero Flying Academy and had two great instructors that new how to and loved to teach. I learned more from them then the two vets and the gang that they hung with. There are lots of great fliers but lots just can't teach, just like any industry or profession.
I would say the whole industry needs a boost and to get the younger generation involved the money needs to be there as that is what is driving them, not the romance of the industry like some of us dinosaurs.

My two cents.

[Cat Driver]

There are lots of great fliers but lots just can't teach,

Yet the way things are now any pilot with around 200 hours and money can get an instructors rating and teach others how to fly.

Are we to believe all these people can teach?

[Big Pistons Forever]

I would say Instructors are setting the bar for how fast a new pilot excels in the industry or kills himself and others. I grew up working on aircraft in the north bush charter and southern crop applicators both outfits were owned by seasoned family members who flew all there lives and could out fly superman. But could not instruct a bag boy how to open a bag. In the early seventies i took lessons at Aero Flying Academy and had two great instructors that new how to and loved to teach. I learned more from them then the two vets and the gang that they hung with. There are lots of great fliers but lots just can't teach, just like any industry or profession.
I would say the whole industry needs a boost and to get the younger generation involved the money needs to be there as that is what is driving them, not the romance of the industry like some of us dinosaurs.

My two cents.

I think when you say "instructor" you have be more specific. Teaching the PPL sylabus is not rocket science and I have met plenty of keen motivated low hour Class 4's who do a very good job. However when you start to get to more advanced training, particularly the IFR and float ratings I think substantial experience is required to do justice to the topic. But experience is of no benefit if the instructor can't convey the information to the student with an effective teaching method. A student thats finds an Instructor that has the trifecta, Great personal flying skills, lots of real world flying experience, and highly effective teaching skills, is very lucky indeed. Unfortunately these instructors are extremely rare because ultimately the aviation industry in general does not value great instruction.

Bottom line: there is a difference between a great pilot and a great instructor

A great pilot is someone who can demonstrate superior, flying skills, airmanship and judgement.

A great instructor is someone whose students demonstrate superior, flying skills, airmanship and judgement

[Liquid Charlie]

I'm sure that . can back me up on this statement but when I learned to fly there was not one instructor where I learned to fly that had airline aspirations. The were mature aviators and all they wanted to do was pass on what they knew. There was bush and military experience (retired) mostly with several who had done nothing else but instruct - there were several airline pilots who hung out there and owned private aircraft but the instructors were not using using their job just to build time and move on. Like everything else - times change - not necessarily for the best.

[Cat Driver]

I'm sure that . can back me up on this statement but when I learned to fly there was not one instructor where I learned to fly that had airline aspirations.

Now that I think about it you are correct, I don't recall any either.

Yet it would seem judging by a lot of the discussions here airlines are the only kind of flying that is worth aiming for. Towards the end of my career I had many airline pilots as students and every one of them enjoyed going back to stick and rudder flying and not one of them ever yearned for their Boeing or Airbus.

When I think about my career I never find myself getting excited by a Boeing or an Airbus, my fondest memories are about Ag. flying and helicopters and such stuff.

Important things were making the machine go where you wanted it to go accurately at all times.

As to what makes a good teacher that is very hard to define, but when you find one you will soon recognize them and appreciate them.

[Cat Driver]

After some reflection I also enjoyed the early days of flying fire bombers especially the lone wolf days when we were sent to fires all by our self and worked them until we beat them into submission so the ground crews could take over.

I once worked a fire north east of Santiago Chile where we had to start the approach from eight thousand feet down the side of one of the Andes mountains and thought there was another airplane flying towards me, but it was an Andean Condor, the fu.kin thing was huge.

Maybe some day when I get back to something near normal I will share some of the more exciting experiences we had away from the airplane in South America. It had nothing to do with flying the magenta line I can assure you.

We found the perfect use for the bidet, we filled it with ice and kept our supply of escape juice in it, it was fun sending the girls to fetch us a drink.

[Hedley]

airlines are the only kind of flying that is worth aiming for

Supremely depressing, isn't it? There's something horribly wrong when the "king of the hill" watches an airplane fly itself.

I can't seriously believe that people become airline pilots just for the money. It's a long, hard road getting there, and the lifestyle sure has it's drawbacks. There are a lot easier ways to earn more money, and as you point out, the flying isn't the greatest.

[Double Wasp]

Cat, I too feel that instructing should be done by people who actually have something to teach. I was one of the lucky ones that was able to be shown how to ply my trade by both high time and ex-military instructors.

I might differ slightly in the fact that I believe the true learning begins when you get your shiney new license and are set loose into the world. Looking back, I was also lucky to be sitting next to gentlemen who had tens of thousands of hours. Throughout my career there have been inumerable times when I look back at the stuff I was shown during my first 1000 hours and was very greatful to have had someone either show me or have told me about a time when it happened to them. The point being that while quality instructors are a very important part, equally important is the job of the everyday Captain who, as far as I am concerned, is responsible for training his replacement. Being a good example and giving useful feedback to his first officers to make them better pilots is how this is accomplished. In this sense I feel we are all teachers and should act accordingly.

For a bit of thread drift ---Of the many changes one could make to the CARS I feel a greater weight should be given towards copilot hours gained on a 2 crew certified aircraft when applying for a higher license. As far as I am concerned if you are flying an airplane where the type certificate says 2 crew required, a DC3 for example, then your hours should be 1 for 1 towards the ATPL. You are a required crew member according to the type certificate as much as an instructor is in dual flight, or being the pilot in any other single pilot aircraft, your time should be counted as the same. I feel this would encourage people to seek out a right seat in a large airplane and give them the opportunity to learn something before from someone who has been there rather than have to scare the s*it out of themselves first.

And to Hedley,

airlines are the only kind of flying that is worth aiming for

Supremely depressing, isn't it? There's something horribly wrong when the "king of the hill" watches an airplane fly itself.

I can't seriously believe that people become airline pilots just for the money. It's a long, hard road getting there, and the lifestyle sure has it's drawbacks. There are a lot easier ways to earn more money, and as you point out, the flying isn't the greatest.

Keep telling them that the big shiney jet is the only way to go, that way we can keep the high paying fun jobs for ourselves.

Cheers all

DW

[Cat Driver]

The following is not thread drift it is one of the most important changes that TC should make to their policies and rules.

However to do this it will be necessary to replace the complete structure at the top of TC's decision making department and that will not happen due to double inertia...the inertia within TC and the inertia within the industry that accepts the lowest common denominator within the structure as good enough.

For a bit of thread drift ---Of the many changes one could make to the CARS I feel a greater weight should be given towards copilot hours gained on a 2 crew certified aircraft when applying for a higher license. As far as I am concerned if you are flying an airplane where the type certificate says 2 crew required, a DC3 for example, then your hours should be 1 for 1 towards the ATPL. You are a required crew member according to the type certificate as much as an instructor is in dual flight, or being the pilot in any other single pilot aircraft, your time should be counted as the same. I feel this would encourage people to seek out a right seat in a large airplane and give them the opportunity to learn something before from someone who has been there rather than have to scare the s*it out of themselves first.

When I flew multi crew airplanes I only did about 1/4 of the flying, especially landing and take offs and never had a crew member complain that I was not doing my share.

I wonder why?