I asked:

How many older retired pilots do you know who are interested in getting or renewing a Canadian flight instructors rating

You replied:

and i know quite a few of them. and honestly.. they are awesome.

I don't know any retired pilots who went through the agony of getting a flight instructors rating so they can work for a wage that wouldn't pay the cost of the rating for years and years of part time instructing.

Retired pilots can teach without an instructors rating...they just can't teach for the PPL or the CPL.

When you describe them as awesome instructors, from what experience level are you making that statement?

hedley wrote:I will admit that I too avoid ab initio. One of my pet peeves is when I invest a considerable amount of time in someone, and then they quit flying. What a piss-off. I don't want to spend a chunk of my life on someone unless he is going to make a significant contribution to aviation.

Its also very demoralizing as an instructor when a student doesn't finish - even though the reasons for it might be beyond your control. When conducting ab initio for the instructor a day may be like 50 first dates. New people many whom it becomes your job to figure out what makes them tick. How do you inspire them? One in every ten people usually has some sort of personality disorder as well which can be extrordinarily trying. Once again I digress.

unless he has previous teaching experience (unlikely with a 21 yr old).

Actually, that's how I came to instructing, part of my in between flying work (and really what put food on the table) was teaching a variety of workplace related materials. Basic safety, WHMIS, first aid and a few others. I'll admit that when my flying students are being difficult I think back to some of these students (often unwilling and/or uncaring) and the flight training ones then don't seem so bad.

MultiSister wrote:I ve actually begun teaching GS myself. And I have never realized how hard it is to explain something to other people.

Back when I was doing my rating, this was the ability of my class one that always amazed me - the ability to explain. Now when I do class one stuff its probably the most rewarding break through with a new class four - when they get that eureka moment and discover how they must lead a student somewhere. While some may dis the "learning factors" , they are the basics of how information gets written biochemically in the human brain. Relationship is often the factor most at play here for those who care what I'm talking about.

hedley wrote:More time-building rhetoric. By definition a class 2 instructor has taught at least 10 people to flight test. You might personally dislike the guy, but don't confuse that with technical competence....

...I find it enormously amusing to think that so many people hold the opinion that experience is irrelevant to skill in aviation.

I think that you'd be mistaken in assuming the last there, probably from what I have to say often. Its not that experience is irrelevent, its how we measure experience often that doesn't quite hit the mark, and once again I'll hit on the point that if flight training is to improve that this is the critical perception amongst pilots that must change. This is part of the loophole in the system. That person who is a class two may have had ten failed flight tests in that record as well. Contrary to popular belief, if you have more than three failures on your flight test reccomends does not mean an immediate suspension of your instructor rating. It means TC conducts a review of your rating. Its entirely possible that they may still let you instruct after that point, they might bump you down, they might still let you get the class two. It might be possible that they might not even call you up when your record gets that bad - I know one class four who upgraded to a class 3 with three fails as their first three students - TC didn't say boo.

IF you still have your doubts that the system is leaky in this regard, remember that 767 holds a class two instructor's rating and doesn't know how to recover from a stall (either that or is the greatest troll on avcanada - I sincerely hope its the latter.)

if you have more than three failures on your flight test reccomends does not mean an immediate suspension of your instructor rating

No, but you can be in for a really unpleasant time. CAR 421.67 applies.

When Bill Whaley (now deceased - I can talk about it now) was the CFI here he had a problem student, whom I thought was a real idiot. He thought he was a far better student pilot than he really was, and tried to bully poor old Bill Whaley around with his force of personality. The student thought he was the hottest pilot in Canada, so Bill sent him up to Jim Butler in Pembroke for a flight test, I suspect as a lesson in humility for Mr Hotshot. Bill didn't talk a whole lot.

Student failed the flight test, of course. But now the student's story changed, and he claimed that it was inferior instruction. Not his fault. He wrote all sorts of nasty letters to everybody, and shortly after that Bill's instructor rating was revoked by Transport. He'd only been CFI for 30 years.

Hmmmm.

As an instructor, I take my flight test record very seriously. I don't need to give Transport any more ammunition to take action against me, thank you very much.

What happened to Bill is par for the course if TC decides to take action against you.

Hell they ran me right out of Canada because I had the gall to take legal action against a them for protecting one of their own who had beyond doubt exceeded his authority.

But being run out of Canada didn't really bother me nor did it hinder my career.

By the way I have yet to see one cent of the $250,000.00 they owe me when I won my case against them.

I will admit I hold NAMBLA in lower esteem though......just barely.

Hedley wrote:

GoinNowhereFast wrote:a class 2 that would have trouble teaching a monkey to eat a banana

More time-building rhetoric. By definition a class 2 instructor has taught at least 10 people to flight test. You might personally dislike the guy, but don't confuse that with technical competence.

Just because he has taught 10 people to flight test standards does not make him a good instructor. It means he is a passable instructor. He also disappeared off to some charter company as soon as they offered him a right seat job.

FWIW, the best instructor I ever flew with had his Class.1 expire over 20 years ago and he was a crusy old guy that I did not really get along with either. He was excellent at analyzing my errors and offering ways to improve.

The point I was trying to make is that instructor class does not have everything to do with their ability to teach.

If flight training in Canada is to improve, instructing should be a viable career. Schools need to keep their prices in check too. Simply raising instructor costs will not go over well with students already paying $200+ per hour (airplane and instructor) in 40 year old aircraft. The overhead needs to be decreased and management needs to be more cost savvy.

MultiSister wrote:The best instructors Ive had, are the ones who are there to have fun. And the ones who are older or retired and just teach because they want to see their students succeed.

I had many instructors, ya many there was a lot of turnover. I would have to check my log book but if i were to guess i would say close to ten.
and i only remember one Terry Worrel and if your on this forum I want to say thanks!!
He made it fun and he was having fun. I learn alot from him becuase it was fun.

I had another later on who i did my night ratting with, he was a good teacher and he was in it to make money he would work from 6 am till ?? at night and would sleep between his lessoons.

Had a check ride with a retired guy and again you could tell he was there to have fun. He was there to keep busy and did not do it for the $$

I am trying to think of another occupation where so many people work just for fun.

I've been hard at work as a



I've been paying my dues for quite some time now, but the paycheques just aren't rolling in yet.

instructor class does not have everything to do with their ability to teach

Perhaps not everything, but in my decades of experience there is a very strong correlation between the amount of experience someone has doing a particular task, and their proficiency at it. I know this fact of life bothers people in egalitarian and borderline socialist countries, but it's still a fact.

I am trying to think of another occupation where so many people work just for fun.

The complaints by flight instructors and on this board are no different then what you will find in the diving community with SCUBA instructors. It's possible to eek out a living as a scuba instructor, but there's no real money in it, even at the higher end. And yes, there are professional dive instructors trying to make a living that way.

The only money in diving is when you get into the commercial diving side i.e. deep water, murky water, underwater welding, etc. The real technical aspect, not the instructional side teaching. The money for most dive shops is the stuff they sell, not the instruction they offer. PADI instructor ratings incorporate a high percentage of sales knowledge. When I completed my rating, I knew a lot more about how to sell products, and marketing then before I started.

But unlike aviation where there are lots of government regulations, scuba is pretty much self-regulating. Which means that there are a lot more retirees taking up scuba instruction. But this is also because of their joy for it, lifestyle desires, and supplementary income (its extra cash, not completely essential cash). Similar I think to what is the case in the states for flight instruction, where you can receive some very good training from ex-comercial pilots who are retired, but still teaching. I can't really say that I've seen that here.

in the states

Couple of differences. It's a lot easier to keep an FAA CFI - I think you can just do an online course at home. Not the case in Canada!

Also, in the USA, there is no stigma associated with being a CFI. In Canada, there seems to be some cultural shame associated with teaching flying. Many companies simply will not hire anyone who has ever instructed. Regardless for the reason, most Canadian flight instructors let their rating lapse as soon as they can, after they start flying twins.

Compare this with the USA, where getting your CFI is part of the natural progression for a civilian pilot, and there is no shame associated with it. They don't have "docks" and "the north" to provide an alternate path of progression for civilian pilots, who can then proudly avoid ever being a flight instructor.

Best way to improve flight training (in my eyes) is to look at the flight training environment and instructor attitude. If you have a school with a piss poor environment that affects the student and also instructor. And if you have an instructor with a "bad attitidue" then the student is going to feed off that and they are going to equate flying with a less the pleasureable feeling. Many things can affect this and anyone can be affected by it. Young or old, 200hr wonders or 20,000+hr vets. We are never going to stop eating our own it seems but we also have to be willing to look out for eachother.

The only money in diving is when you get into the commercial diving side

Judging by Hedley's post, he probably makes good money out of diving

This is another thread where we all can flagellate ourselves, go into a downward spiral of depression, and at the end solve nothing.
You have to change a whole culture and I doubt anyone on here has the Messiah ability to do so.

There's no answer.

We should either move on because the pain is too great, or survive it, or look for the positive aspects and keep our focus on them.

I doubt anyone on here has the Messiah ability to do so

Yup. All you and I can do is fix our little corners of aviation. This perhaps might lack youthful idealism, but is a very practical approach.

Student failed the flight test, of course. But now the student's story changed, and he claimed that it was inferior instruction. Not his fault. He wrote all sorts of nasty letters to everybody, and shortly after that Bill's instructor rating was revoked by Transport. He'd only been CFI for 30 years.

The point still stands though, this had nothing to do with his flight test record - which legally was satisfactory - and more to do with what happens when someone complains to the regulator.

Unless someone goes into their office and complains about your instructing ability, you're unlikely to lose your rating. Mistakenly, instructors fear TC, when in actuality its your student/customers who are the ones who will go stir that hornet's nest.

I've been in Bill's shoes before. Nothing wrong with my record, but a student who was unhappy (actually his Dad - in two separate cases) complained to TC and suddenly the burden of proof fell upon us to prove that we were indeed doing a good job. Not fun. I get the feeling that sometimes the only thing that spurs them to action is someone demanding it in their faces and suddenly all sorts of shit can avalanche your way. Like the time someone complained to them that they didn't get their license fast enough, since I was the AP who submitted it, suddenly every application I made for several months got bounced and I got the angry customers instead. They even went as far to re-review the licenses they had already issued that I had been the AP for and find errors in the records and try to demand some of the licenses be returned from the now newly licensed pilots... I think they got told to have sex and travel a few times, but again I digress. I could also tell you about the time someone complained that our airplanes were unsafe because they were old and the shitstorm that followed, but that's another story.

As an instructor, I take my flight test record very seriously. I don't need to give Transport any more ammunition to take action against me, thank you very much.

Now I'm not saying that one shouldn't, but I feel its important that one knows where the real source of your trouble is.

Cat Driver wrote: I am trying to think of another occupation where so many people work just for fun.

Actually, the performing arts are quite similar to aviation in many ways. You can get training through individual instruction from a teacher who probably does not make a lot of money. Or a big, expensive arts university and have a lot of debt. In the beginning you scratch your way through for little or no money to gain experience. Frequent moves to upgrade the level of your skills are also required. This takes years and a lot of sacrifice. If you make it big there is lots of money but relatively few do and many adapt for a comfortable but not extravagant lifestyle simply because they love acting/playing music/painting. Or they change career paths for money and pursue the arts for fun in their spare time. And especially the actors and musicians are vulnerable to losing their employment, with few transferable job skills, due to health problems.

Anyway, as for flight training, Hedley's got it right. We all have to do our bit day to day to improve what is in our own sphere of influence. Some of us may get the opportunity to participate in some sort of study or initiative with a broader impact, but most won't. But we all go to work each day and need to steadily work at the multitude of tiny, small things that comprise a day's activities.

Be positive, prepared and give your students/customers their money's worth. Regardless of where the industry is at or what generally negative opinions other people have (which you have no control over) you have control over what you do.

5x5 wrote:[
Be positive, prepared and give your students/customers their money's worth. Regardless of where the industry is at or what generally negative opinions other people have (which you have no control over) you have control over what you do.

I instructed for 38 years, some full time , some part time, some freelance and I hope that I gave 110% worth to my students. I finally gave it up when my arthritic old body would not fold into many of the spam-cans..at 69 years young. My best moment was when an old student whom I had trained at YMJ, and whom I had not seen for a lot of years came into my classroom and thanked me for saving his butt. He was on a winch tow at about 100' when the cable broke and he said that when the nose was pushed over all he had for a landing area in front of him was the refuling truck parking area which was very short.

Spoilers out, slip like the devil, touch down and very near the trucks he said my voice was in his head..
Ground loop the sucker..which he did. The glider was safe, he was safe, it wasn't pretty but what the hell it worked out. I later had his 15 year old son in my Ground school classroom and John was happy.

Did I contribute anything to Aviation safety? It only takes one situation like this to make you feel as though you earned your pay..but then I was doing it for fun!

Hedley wrote:

I doubt anyone on here has the Messiah ability to do so

Yup. All you and I can do is fix our little corners of aviation. This perhaps might lack youthful idealism, but is a very practical approach.

Here here. No PPL/CPL/ME/IFR instructor in Canada is ever going to make $100 an hour, just like TC is never going to deregulate flight training so I do not see the point in wasting avcanada electrons talking about things that are unlikely to change. The folks who are going to change flight training are going to do it one student at a time and are actively involved in flight instruction today.

However I think avcanada provides an extremely valuable service. When I started as a new instructor the only real source of information were the guys who worked at my school and hung around the airport. Now we have a bulletin board with many very experienced posters who IMO are posting a ton of valuable ideas, most refined over many years of hard won practice in flying training and flyign in general. Maybe I am naive but I honestly think this forum is contributing in a real way to the general improvement of Canadian flying instructing.

The most useful post IMO, are not the ones which complain about the state of Canadian flight training industry, they are the ones which address a specific issue and provide specific advice, including the background information and thinking on why the proposed course of action is a good idea. Hedley IMO is particularly good at this.

So I say again "what concrete thing have you done to improve flight training"..... I am not expecting an answer just the hope that more of the older experienced guys/gals decide they care enough about flight training to get personally involved , whether that means mentoring a new pilot, actually engaging in flight instruction or just posting some good tips, hard won lessons, or "don't do this" stories...it's all good

Maybe I missing something in this conversation, so can someone explain this to me.

I am retired and have not held an instructors rating in Canada for over forty years but may still want to do some instruction.

Why would I go through all the effort and cost to renew an instructors rating just so I could work for peanuts at some FTU?

Would renewing my instructors rating really improve my knowledge enough to justify the time and money involved.....assuming TC would ever renew it which is highly doubtful.

Maybe I am just a leper in Canadian aviation and might infect someone?

Cat Driver wrote:Maybe I missing something in this conversation, so can someone explain this to me.

I am retired and have not held an instructors rating in Canada for over forty years but may still want to do some instruction.

Why would I go through all the effort and cost to renew an instructors rating just so I could work for peanuts at some FTU?

Would renewing my instructors rating really improve my knowledge enough to justify the time and money involved.....assuming TC would ever renew it which is highly doubtful.

Maybe I am just a leper in Canadian aviation and might infect someone?

You wouldn't go through that effort if your objective was to make money. You would renew it maybe to get into the lucrative business of, as Hedley describes it, "boutique" freelance flight training. Of course if you were old, for some reason desperate to fly for some reason and still a couple hundred hour pilot hanging on to the dream you might sign on to a flight school as it might be small step above being a greeter at wal-mart. Mind you there are plenty of people who take that job and not for the money, but because it keeps them busy, which is what I suspect the few older experienced pilots who do work for FTUs are there for. Once you're old though, it often will be accepted that you will be able to set your own schedule which to some degree compensates for the lack of money.

You'd also be suprised how ingrained some older pilots are in the system we have in that I've had a few volunteer for free, just to get flying.

I also suspect that some older pilots do it because they get a captive audience for a few hours a day too.

This thread has been on AvCanada perhaps a hundred times in one guise or another since I first came on here.
I don't know why people repeat themselves so much.

Many mantras are for calming, to meditate and recover ones mind.
This particular mantra is to dive into a cesspool of misery and this does nobody any good.

What's the saying about things one can change vs things one can't?

I had a long think last night.
There are many things I cannot change, I've tried hard over these past years here in Canada, and I'm not much further ahead.
It is time to change, but I am an honourable person and I will endeavour to leave my situation better than when I arrived.
That is all any of us can hope to do in this flying training business.

This particular mantra is to dive into a cesspool of misery and this does nobody any good.

And there people is the reality of flight training in Canada.

Seems it it hopeless to hope for change.

By the way who exactly is it that determines how flight training is conducted in Canada?

Some here think it is the individual.

This thread has been on AvCanada perhaps a hundred times in one guise or another since I first came on here.
I don't know why people repeat themselves so much.

I don't know about you, but I keep repeating the message because I believe that it needs to stay alive. Flight training isn't going to change if we all silently nod to each other in some secret meeting about what we think should change, its going to change if we persist in the battle for it. As a flight instructor if you knew that there was some way you could enact change wouldn't you do it or would you sit comforted by the fact that the system has got you down?


As per this particular forum, being repetitious is simply a necessity of getting the message across. I'm not targetting who can't be changed by this message, We're trying to reach those who still haven't formed an opinion. While you might get bored and depressed about reading it, there are plenty of new readers, new student readers to the forum all the time. The customer of flight training is whom the message must reach. Regrettably somewhat, as is standard with many message forums, only the most recent topics maintain attention of the readers and especially new readers. Marketing 101 - repetition in advertising works.

Some here think its the individual.

Currently the "individual" is the only avenue it has for change so we must act through it. TC might have its own low standard for flight training, but they can't keep us down to it.

Something to consider: If, as an individual, you had one message to get out there that you would believe is crucial to changing how flight training (or anything in aviation for that matter) functions, what would it be?

TC might have its own low standard for flight training, but they can't keep us down to it.

They have complete control over who can teach, and will cull anyone they decide they do not want in the system.....and there is no recourse for those who get culled.

Something to consider: If, as an individual, you had one message to get out there that you would believe is crucial to changing how flight training (or anything in aviation for that matter) functions, what would it be?

Change to the FAA system, allow flight instructors to teach without the need for a FTU OC.

TC might have its own low standard for flight training

I think the training standard here is high, and this is not necessarily a bad thing.

Certainly there is a tougher standard in BC than most places... I can only judge by the material we get here from eastern Canada sometimes!

I am in a quandry about this however as flight training is as much the responsibility of the student as it is of the instructor/school/TC, and the ability of a pilot is not a measure of the hours flown.
In fact it can be the inverse of extra hours because too many students fail to realise we learn to fly on the ground!
We practice it in the air.

Limited hours training
I knew the first Rec Permit trained by the flying club here. He bought a Mooney M20K and crossed the mountains on oxygen to fly across Canada.
He had minimal training, but he self studied his high performance aeroplane and flew it safely.
He'd never had to demonstrate all the exercises a PPL had to.
He did his PPL in the Mooney when he decided to get the Instrument Rating such a serious machine requires.

So I look to my own PPL flight test back in 1974. I had to do about 75% of what a PPL student has to do now.
I see the PPL flight test as being long and arduous for many students, many lose sleep the night before and are set up accordingly!
It's easy for the student to fatigue and then fail one or two items which he/she had demonstrated easily to the instructor.
Then there's the mindset of someone looking at the 3 or more hours a typical PPL flight test takes.
No, standards are much higher if they are applied in accordance with the PPL Flight Test Guide of today.

The PPL should be a licence to learn, an assurance that passengers will be safe in the aeroplane.
Most times a good instructor can tell whether a person is safe by having that pilot fly a circuit.
The prime item that should be tested in my opinion is background knowledge, the ability to make sound decisions (PDM).
PPPPPP

Yes it is for every instructor to do his/her bit to improve the situation, but we all need a happy pill to overcome the depression of a poor standard of living.

They have complete control over who can teach, and will cull anyone they decide they do not want in the system.....and there is no recourse for those who get culled.

What I guess I'm saying then is if you are within their system, they can't make you teach poorly. I guess technically they can't stop you from teaching at all, just from teaching within their system. For example, if I wanted to come learn something from you on an airplane, I am still free to do it, and you are still free to teach me. This goes to the real world/paper world we often talk about here. It would be interesting to see if one could open up a training facility, without instructors. You're just not teaching towards any paper. Be an intersting experiment. Interestingly enough - due to free trade - you don't even have to teach towards a Canadian license in this country to really thumb your nose at them. Apparently there's not much they can do about it, to which they seem (to me gleefully!) unhappy.

MichaelP wrote:I think the training standard here is high, and this is not necessarily a bad thing.

What your standard, what the actual standard and TC's mandated standard are different things. The actual standard is often somewhere higher (fortunately) than TC's mandated standard. There is no constant on this though, so sometimes you will get people trained to TC's minimum standard which will probably be lower than your personal standard. In my opinion TC's standard of flight training is brutally low. For instance:

1) It has a very low pass requirement of 60% for the PPL both on the flight test and the written. Keep in mind that on the flight test a candidate may score all "2"s and still pass. (In my mind this was a step back from the old 0-5 system, if you figured out the old way you had to score an average of 2.5 on every excersise to pass, remember that's my opinion)

2) The CPL flight test has a similar scoring system, and a marginally higher requirement on the written test.

3) There is no limitations on failure of either test, if you got money and time you can eventually pass either. The million monkeys on million typewriters principle applies.

My opinion is that we should increase or improve these requirements in a few ways, that might be another topic though.

Yes it is for every instructor to do his/her bit to improve the situation, but we all need a happy pill to overcome the depression of a poor standard of living.

Besides taking happy pills, what specifically are you doing to improve the standard of living to be had by instructors? Ignoring the problem won't fix it. You're a CFI right? You have some power to enact change. This has less to do with how TC mandates flight training and more to do with business. The real question behind Cat's opening post if I'm not mistaken.