Did Jazz just poop the bed?

[teacher]

You are absolutly right ".". What if Jazz starts doing all the domestic Embraer flying? Will that be just business or lowering the bar as so many others would like to put it?

[TopperHarley]

A lot of those smaller Tier 3 companies don't really have the infrastructure to support that amount of flying. Even if it was all "chopped up" and divided amongst various small companies scattered over the country, this would require a large cost to AC as AC would be responsible for maintaining a consistent standard across many different companies. These passengers will be flying under an Air Canada ticket, so I don't think AC would let unproven companies with limited infrastructure and questionable safety records fly on their behalf.

If AC really wanted to fully divest itself from Jazz, then they wouldn't have extended the CPA to 2020.

[Mig29]

.., no where did I see your opinion in there, other than your implied agreement with the practice, "it's just business." Are you saying you agree with it? It's okay for management to take millions in bonuses for degrading our profession, after all it's "just business", right? When someone's flying a Navajo for 14,000.00 a year because someone else is flying a King Air 16,000.00, because someone else is flying an RJ for 18,000.00, it's okay because it's "just business".
Boy, in the name of business, I hope someone comes along and opens up another grocery store and pays there non unionized employees minimum wage and drives those pesky unionized places, like Safeway out of business. Oh wait I think I just read somewhere that Walmart is converting most of their existing stores to grocery stores and any new ones will be as well. All those 18.00/ hr safeway employees should be able to find work at the new Walmarts, and if they should start to try and form a union, well they'll just close that store, citing underperformance, but it's okay according to .., "it's just business"

+ 1 from me!!
ps. I just can't wait till the Oil giants start chopping their workers pay so I can finally afford a litter of gas under $1...hell, make it 50 cents !!

[pika]

I think what .. means by it's just business is, it is what it is. It's a reality. Maybe not the best for the profession, but it is reality.

[Canoehead]

Until a 'College of Pilots' or something like that is in place (if that even is a reality is another debate), WAWCON at operators will degrade. I still hear of "pilots" (quotes on purpose) applying to small operators offering to work for free just for the experience... (which by the way I would love to see a list started here of people doing so). Look at the kids south of the border.

"WOW! You mean I can be a stud-muffin pilot on that... how do you say it? Emm-bray-err 190? (sorry- haven't heard of that before. Oh built in Brazil- that's in Europe right?) And you will pay me 30-grand a year too?! And I just have to pay for this fancy 60-thousand dollar course to be an AIRLINE F/O? Oh my god... I think I might have just wet myself!

Yep- it's coming here. And remember that 'Flying Cheap' PBS special?
While you are watching it, remember that senior managers and directors of the board rooms don't give a %^&* about customer service or safety or consistency. They ONLY care about maximum dollars in THEIR accounts in the short term. And they will do it OUR expense. And if anyone doesn't think odds on hull-loss and liability isn't factored in, give your head a shake.

Passengers are willing to accept it- because it translates to a cheaper ticket for them. So we (pilots as a whole) are left to fight this battle ourselves. We have allies in the public for a few hours after they watch the frightening documentaries and read the news reports... but they sure don't mind paying $99 fares when they have to take a trip.

Air Canada starting an LCC to effectively compete with itself (besides the others) is icing on the cake.
What an embarrassment the airline business is at times.

Soon Add Sky Regional & GGN & CMA Etc...
Flying Cheap

Sorry- might have been a bit of a rant/tangent

[AV8R]

I'm getting out of this Shit industry, applying for jobs in anything and everything but aviation

and yes i do look like Clint Eastwood

[homer85]

GGN Dash 8???!!!

Sorry but like mentioned before, the company was thinking about it but has many "issues" to sort out before they can even think about a Dash 8.

[ScudRunner]

.., no where did I see your opinion in there, other than your implied agreement with the practice, "it's just business." Are you saying you agree with it? It's okay for management to take millions in bonuses for degrading our profession, after all it's "just business", right?

You really didn't see an opinion in what I wrote? take a step back and think about it. My opinion is that Canadian aviation will mirror or emulate the US market that has many regional carriers operating routes for larger Mainline or legacy carriers.

When someone's flying a Navajo for 14,000.00 a year because someone else is flying a King Air 16,000.00, because someone else is flying an RJ for 18,000.00, it's okay because it's "just business".
Boy, in the name of business, I hope someone comes along and opens up another grocery store and pays there non unionized employees minimum wage and drives those pesky unionized places, like Safeway out of business.

Lets be clear I am not making a judgement on if its right or wrong, I really think you and others need to take your personal interests out of the equation. If you think that AC or any carrier is going to be nice and pay more than the market demands just because you have a family and think "our profession" is worthy of such reward give your head a shake you are a number on a balance sheet. Don't mean to sound harsh but no one will pay $500 bucks to fly to Toronto when someone is selling the same service for $200. If Safeway is charging more for Milk Cheese and Kraft Dinner than the competition you will go to the competition. The consumer doesn't care if they are paying the cashier 7 bucks an hour or 25 or if its a union store or not, the consumer will decide with their wallet.

Oh wait I think I just read somewhere that Walmart is converting most of their existing stores to grocery stores and any new ones will be as well. All those 18.00/ hr safeway employees should be able to find work at the new Walmarts, and if they should start to try and form a union, well they'll just close that store, citing underperformance, but it's okay according to .., "it's just business"

If a company cannot react or deal with the external environment in which it operates without adjusting to competition then yes greed is good. I know this will not be popular but if in your example WalMart saves the consumer money on every purchase by operating efficiently and the consumer supports their business well good for Walmart. If people are loyal to Safeway and it provides a competitive service and competes with a Walmart good for Safeway. Next time you are flying somewhere talk to the person beside you and ask them why they purchased a ticket with said carrier I betcha price and sched are at the top of the list. How many times have you heard someone bitching about Air Canada when they actually flew on Jazz, ask them what they think the pilot gets paid the consumer doesn't care how about ask your cashier at the grocery store how much they are making.

Remember that for most of you with thousands of hours experience are doing the same job as a 250 hour pilot fresh out of confed college or wherever, are you special?

You are absolutly right ".". What if Jazz starts doing all the domestic Embraer flying? Will that be just business or lowering the bar as so many others would like to put it?

Yes as a business owner its just business as a pilot its lowering the bar if I was a stock holder I would fire the entire board if they where not operating as efficiently as possible to give me a return on my investment, I care about money. If I could liquidate the company for more profit than it could make operating and I wouldn't think twice about it. I would rather they just move that passenger capacity cap at 75 and bulk out the CRJ-705 to 90 seats.

The paragraph above is how business works and how investors look at a company, sorry but that's reality. A side note how many Jazz pilots wouldn't bid on the Embraer flying if Jazz where to get it??? you all have a price and it goes to the lowest bidder.

I think what .. means by it's just business is, it is what it is. It's a reality. Maybe not the best for the profession, but it is reality.

Correct, I love playing the Kevin O'leary on here at times and I sincerely hope I am pissing a lot of you off and you start to see how Darwinian life and this industry is you are entitled to nothing stop the madness.

A lot of those smaller Tier 3 companies don't really have the infrastructure to support that amount of flying. Even if it was all "chopped up" and divided amongst various small companies scattered over the country, this would require a large cost to AC as AC would be responsible for maintaining a consistent standard across many different companies. These passengers will be flying under an Air Canada ticket, so I don't think AC would let unproven companies with limited infrastructure and questionable safety records fly on their behalf.

If AC really wanted to fully divest itself from Jazz, then they wouldn't have extended the CPA to 2020.

Topper my friend are you saying PASCO Westwind Transwest CMA Georgian Provincial Calm Air Perimeter, are unproven with questionable safety records? Quick call TC and tell them they need to be shut down immediately, ok it's a given that Perimeter still uses 121.5 as company frequency but I don't think AC requires a sched to Shamattawa.

[trey kule]

there is some truth to the claim that the older generation created some of the problems. Over weight flying..we set a bad example..Not sure about Weather...I think , for the most part, the way people came up through the system, we were just better pilots.
Drinking....nah...drug using...absolutely not. Wearing big old sun glasses and watches...the jury is out...no oakleys in my day...we had to make do with no names...and we did it without complaining. And dont blame us for setting the example for oily head sets..Nope..wildroot and brylcream didnt make messes on headsets like whatever is holding up your rooster cuts today.

BUT...when it comes to wages...no. Thirty years ago, I worked for a company. Wages were OK..They were more than that same company is paying to start today!!!! That decline is not the older generation. Our salaries, for the most part, have continued up, though not as much in the last few years. And I dont recall ANY pilot working for free to get experience or, worse, paying for it..Just didnt happen that I can remember.(and should I simply have forgotten, one or two examples kids...are exceptions...not the rule)
Those are new situations.

Now a couple of years ago (I am to lazy to look) Jazz did a great big hiring for new FOs...Pay sucked. They told new hires to expect at least 5 years in the right seat.....line ups ., literally line ups for the jobs. I actually posted that the eager ones did not really hear or understand the 5 year thing, or the salaries, and Jazz would have some problems.
Air Canada has a different problem....powerful, very powerful unions. who dont give a rats ass about the company. Wj , so far has a nice formula..Pay your senior pilots scads as a carrot (incentive) to keep the younger ones on line. (pilots only...they cost money to train etc.)..Rest of the "owners",,pretty much minimum wages, And when I said nice, I meant nice for the company.
BTW, as WJ matures, their model, I think, is going to have to make some real changes and you just might see some labor issues brewing over there in the future when upgrade time becomes longer.

In any event, when it comes to wages, young'ins, it is not us old guys..It is yourselves.

On behalf on the toothless liars, beer drinkers, and senior pilots assn., I accept our reponsability for lowering the bar...but not on wages. or being finger pointing wimps...now cowboy up and accept responsability that you are part of the problem or nothing will change

[KK7]

. is explaining this better than anyone else can. It's just business is not a justification for doing less than desirable things, but it is what drives our world. The poor pilots not getting paid enough is just business in the sense that the pilots are willing to work for such low wages, and as a business operator, why wouldn't I hire someone for less money if it is available? The bottom line is my competitor is offering cheap tickets and to stay in business, I need to keep up. The paying passengers are not going to start paying more money simply because they feel bad for the pilots. How many people refuse to shop at Walmart on the basis that they drive out local businesses?

Frankly you can't expect a company to look after your best interests. Sometimes it appears that a company is trying to look after their employees, and sometimes they do because it is good for the business, after all happy employees are productive employees. But when there are 250 hour pilots who only care about flying and nothing else, the business owners are happy to oblige by offering lots of flying at minimal wages. We have to look after our own interests.

[TopperHarley]

..,

I don't disagree with what you're saying, I just think that maybe you're eyes are a little blinded over right now because you're a Canucks fan and you actually think they'll be able to win the cup. But I digress.

I wouldn't say those companies have "questionable" safety records. Perhaps I chose a bad word. I think AC cares a lot about their image, and I just dont see them farming out their flying to "bush" airlines just to save money. Skyregional is becoming a viable competitor, and they'll probably grow. But I dont see Jazz shrinking into oblivion. Even if Georgian could do the flying for cheaper, it doesn't mean AC will want them too. If it was all about saving $$$, AC would give all the narrowbodies to Jazz (or even Georgian, Pasco, etc) and let mainline pilots only fly the widebodies. That would save even more $$$, but there's a certain value by keeping it the mainline side.

I dont think your predictions are far-fetched at all (except for the ones about the Canucks). I hope they don't come true though.

[fingersmac]

I know this will not be popular but if in your example WalMart saves the consumer money on every purchase by operating efficiently and the consumer supports their business well good for Walmart.

Great. Just what we need, the 'walmartization' of aviation in Canada. Yes, greed is good for the extremely small percentage that get to capitalize on it. I guess the rest of us will be happy because we can afford the cheap flying on our minimum wage salary. Forget buying a house though or saving for retirement.

While I agree capitalism is good, greed is not.

[teacher]

".." I'm not saying a disagree with you in principal. I just don't like it

I think the bigger question is what if anything can we do about it? Until a "College of Pilots" sets mandatory WACON that applies to the entire industry YES, we will be at the mercy of capitalism.

[contrite]

I think the bigger question is what if anything can we do about it? Until a "College of Pilots" sets mandatory WACON that applies to the entire industry YES, we will be at the mercy of capitalism.

If one tries to reconcile this desire for a "College Of Pilots" (a non-union union that sets mandatory WACON for the entire industry nationwide) with your strong endorsement of the status pay system, it seems your position is that given equal years of service in the industry, Caravan pilots be paid the same as B777 pilots. If not, which utopia would you discard?

[teacher]

which utopia would you discard?

Niether actually. If a pilot group chooses to work under a status pay system than an "average wage" should be easy to figure out. If they don't than per type off you go. Types of aircraft and ratio of how many per type you have divided by the amount of pilots is your base, than add years of service.

I think everyone on this board knows how I feel about pilot pay though.

[contrite]

But isn't the foundational premise of the College that there is only one "pilot group", a national one, and everyone works under identical T&C? If certain classifications of the larger group can work under different conditions with respect to status pay, what other provisions could they opt out of? Why would a Boeing captain take less under a status pay group that operates smaller types, when a non-status group would pay him substantially more? Particularly when the whole point of the College is the principle of "equal pay for work of equal value" and the portability of seniority and conditions from one company to the next while holding a number on the national seniority list. The two concepts just don't seem reconcilable.

[oldncold]

HMM something historical to consider.

T.C.A. (Air canada) started out with 10 pass lockheed planes in the 30'// that is 1930's not flt level 300 for those born after 1980.

could not make enough money so moved on to dc3's more bums in the seats
costs continue to rise need more bums in the seats, upgrade to vangards and vicounts> still not enough bums in the seats with costs rising. upgrade to dc9 and 727 need many more bums in seats add L1011 and 747. costs still rising so upgrade 767 and airbus 320's cost rise again need fuel efficient bum transporters air bus 319's and embraier 190's

All these 3rd tier carriers are facing the same issue on a different scale and just in the 21 first century instead of the last one . Costs are rising> need more bums in seats to survive, and need larger fuel efficient (relative to their market) aircraft to survive , its not personal it just business.

When it comes to scheduled airlines it is all about capacity seat miles and revenue seats miles the rest is an exercise in future casting . pardon the pun the bottom line is inorder to have a stable revenue stream the price must reflect the abilty of the public to pay a certain price point . say $500.00 a bum in the seat. when the costs creep or spike to where it is necessary to do one of 4 things
1) go out of biz MANY PILOTS HAVE SEEN THAT HAPPEN
2) cut as much internal cost as possible
3) buy different aircraft to put more bums in seats and hope to hell that the due dilligence in the strategic plan plays out correctly or they will see # 1 happen to them.
4) raise prices however you will end up pricing out some customers or encuring startup s to thing that they can do it for less

[swordfish]

Nice try, next...

Not trying anything, actual facts. I know your a country hick

And you're not...?

Mildly humorous, even so....

[teacher]

But isn't the foundational premise of the College that there is only one "pilot group", a national one, and everyone works under identical T&C? If certain classifications of the larger group can work under different conditions with respect to status pay, what other provisions could they opt out of? Why would a Boeing captain take less under a status pay group that operates smaller types, when a non-status group would pay him substantially more? Particularly when the whole point of the College is the principle of "equal pay for work of equal value" and the portability of seniority and conditions from one company to the next while holding a number on the national seniority list. The two concepts just don't seem reconcilable.

"More" yes, in the long run no. In an airline scenario that Boeing Captain started as an FO no? He also started as a junior Captain and probably on smaller equipment which would mean he made substantially less than he does as a Boeing Captain. In a status pay system within that company his wages are spread out so as that junior Captain on the lets say, embraer, he wasn't getting rapped but made a very good living. Evening out your pay makes sense since your biggest expenses come at the beginning of your life and start of your career. The only way this wouldn't work is with an op that hires direct entry Captains in which case. Large operations though with multiple types you'd think wouldn't be doing that though.

What people continue to fail to realize is that the company doesn't save money by paying folks less. It's just averaged out over the entire pilot group. Same dollar amount different method of distribution. Answer me this, why the hell should an Embraer Captain and a 777 Captain who have the same seniority, move the same amount of people per day, work the same amount of hours and do pretty much the same job be paid SO differently? (some would argue the Emb. guy works harder) A 70% uplift in wage to do pretty much the same thing? What's the logic in that? Introducing status pay would be tough now I know if not near impossible. I'm just trying to point out the foolishness of formula pay.

[justwork]

I'd be willing to bet, that if Air Canada started up a low cost airline, and wanted to hire Airbus Captains at $45K and FO's at $30K a year, they would have NO PROBLEM filling the seats. IMHO, that's how bad this industry is getting.
Thoughts?

If I were a betting man I'd say this is exactly what AC will be doing. You look at the fundamentals of a LCC - Single class service and single type. So far AC has said they're going to have Airbus and Boeing and offer different levels of service, so the only thing to help cut the cost will be to hire guys and girls willing to work for nothing - and there are a lot of those people around.

Canada needs a National pilot union.

[Beefitarian]

Canada needs a National pilot union.

I agree but don't think we will see an effective union in the western world for a few generations. Everyone I speak to either hates the concept of solidarity or is involved in one of the existing organisations which I am convinced are being run by non-union interests.

People pay to be a member of a "union" that is afraid to take any action against their employer out of fear of being sued and becoming broke. Now they hate the local they are a member of and wish they could keep the monthly dues.

It totally distracts most of them from the pension and benifits that are often just slightly better than those of many non-union employees and sometimes seem lower than that of some companies that look after their employees without a contract. Corperations have used the media to paint unions as something that lazy welfare types use to steal our taxes.

[Tiny Tyke]

Canada needs a National pilot union.[/quote]

There is/was a national pilots union. It was called CALPA and now it's called ALPA Canada.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

And I dont recall ANY pilot working for free to get experience or, worse, paying for it..Just didnt happen that I can remember.(and should I simply have forgotten, one or two examples kids...are exceptions...not the rule)
Those are new situations.

No one had to work for free in the glory days....
in the late 70s (maybe 1978?) the entire graduating class at Sault college was hired by AC....that kind of stuff just does not happen today. Graduates start on the ramp, or instructing and it can be many many years of shit, low paying jobs before they even get an interview at AC.
Times have changed and not for the better.

Who is to blame...young? old? I think GREED is to blame....how do we stop the decline....I have NO idea!

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Canada needs a National pilot union.

There is/was a national pilots union. It was called CALPA and now it's called ALPA Canada.

No one has offered membership to me...I don't think this union covers all pilots, do they?

[justwork]

There is/was a national pilots union. It was called CALPA and now it's called ALPA Canada.

This has nothing to do with what I mean. Canada needs a national pilot union that represents everyone. If you fly a navajo then you can't make less than X amount, if you fly a 380 you cant make less than X amount. If the public has to pay more to fly to Europe, or Mexico, then they have to pay more to fly to Europe or Mexico... Why is it that flights are cheaper now then they were 20 years ago? If every operator is paying their pilots the same wages, type or size specific, then it's going to make it more difficult for them to under cut each other. I'm sick of pilot wages subsidizing the my neighbors vacation. I'm sick of reading about $79 seat sales when oil is sky rocketing. It should be more expensive to fly today than it has ever been in the history of aviation, simply due to inflation and the cost of fuel, yet you can still find deals like this:





Who's fault is it? Ours. Pilots work for dirt cheap, and if you don't there is a guy right behind you that will. That's why we need a national union. If Mr. Jones want to take his family across the country for vacation and spend less then $1000 then he better go get on a bus OR load up the vista cruiser and hit the road, plenty of super 8's along the way. He want to fly? Start saving.