YTZ-YUL-YTZ VIVE la difference!

[altiplano]

OK yycguy, you tell me then.

I don't think there are "exemptions" at YTZ where you can say just say please and get off cheap. You land late, you pay, even if it's due wx or an unexpected delay.

[yycflyguy]

Dunno how much it is. That's why I asked. You seemed to be in the know about the cost though when you said

... for a lot of $$$. Better have a full A/C to make it close to worthwhile.

Like I said, happens all the time in YYZ. Just takes some foresight and co-ordination.

[Realitychex]

[/quote]

Hey Realitychex - I just read that Porter's market share in the Golden Triangle is up to 25% versus Westjet's 15%. How's the free booze and the "50% off if we're late" working for you?[/quote]

You can chase market share 'til the cows come home. Here's the only metric that matters.

1Q 2011 Operating Margin including Interest as an Expense
Allegiant 14.0%
Alaska 11.4%
WestJet 8.2%
Southwest 2.3%
jetBlue 0.1%
Pinnacle -2.1%
Hawaiian -2.2%
Skywest -2.3%
United -2.7%
Industry Weighted Avg -2.8%
US Airways -3.9%
Delta -4.0%
Air Canada -5.5%
Republic -5.5%
AMR -7.8%

I'll guarantee Porter's margin is in AMR territory.

Have a nice day.

[dashx]

Through 1987 to 1988, Wardair purchased 12 airbuses and 16 McDonnell-Douglas MD-88s to meet the increasing demands it faced, but this brought with it a massive debt that would ultimately bring its operations to an end. In May 1989, Wardair was sold to Canadian Pacific to avoid the possibility of bankruptcy

It was hard (and it still is) to operate a good airline.

But.....the click is clocking.

[Valhalla]

dashx, that's a bit of a stretch comparison. Porter gets 2 more Q400s at the end of this year. 4 options for 2012. Seems like fairly conservative growth to me.

I'll guarantee Porter's margin is in AMR territory.

Have a nice day.

You keep on worrying about Porter, Realitychex. I'm not, so I'll have a nice day!

[URC]

At least someone is making money .....

http://www.thestar.com/business/article ... op-airport

$7.1M net profit for Billy Bishop Airport

Henry Stancu, Toronto Star, June 5, 2011

Profits have soared at Toronto’s Billy Bishop Airport.

The lakefront facility’s $12.5 million operational profit in 2010 helped elevate the Toronto Port Authority’s revenue to a record since the authority was founded in 1999.

A “tremendous milestone” is how the port authority board’s chairman, Mark McQueen, described the banner year that saw an over-all net income of $7.1 million for 2010 after expenses and taxes are taken into account for the airport, outer harbour marina and the port authority.

The authority’s 2009 net profit was $1.34 million.

McQueen attributed the increased net income last year to a combination of the popularity of the downtown airport, tight cost control and improved economic growth across the GTA.

“After we pay royalties to Ottawa and taxes to City Hall, every profit dollar is reinvested in the business,” he said.

Billy Bishop Airport was the jewel in the port authority’s crown last year as it produced total revenues of $23.3 million (with an operating profit of $12.5 million), more than double the previous year.

“This robust financial picture allows us to make the investments that our passengers and business partners want, invest in significant improvements for neighbouring communities and continue our commitment to environmental sustainability,” McQueen said.

Putting up noise barriers to deal with a rise in air traffic, the creation of a wetland fish habitat in Tommy Thompson Park, and upgrading the airport’s emergency and snow removal equipment are among planned improvement projects.

The airport’s revenue growth is expected to continue this year as passenger numbers are likely to increase with Porter Airlines adding more flight destinations combined with Air Canada’s recent return to the facility.

With an environment assessment completed and government approval yet to be granted, a proposed pedestrian tunnel is expected to contribute to growth of the airport.

A wetland fish habitat ? Just how much is the AIF at YTZ ? The money would probably be better spent on a Raccoon sanctuary.

[whiteguy]

Flew between YTZ and YUL 29/5/11. Out on Porter in the afternoon... 30 Min late due to mechanical but the in-flight service(WD lite) made up for it! Returned the same day 4 hrs later on AC Express to YTZ. The YUL agent had no clue if AC had a shuttle at YTZ to the Fairmont. The flight departed on time. We were put in a hold over Peterborough due to T-showers @ YTZ airport. After the CB's moved south... commenced the approach for YTZ and on final with gear down... overshot. Pilot announced the YTZ Tower closed at 2 minutes to 23:00 for noise. Went into another hold to land at YYZ and waited :45 for ground crews to figure out how to attach the bridge to the Q400. We departed YUL @20:45 & arrived in YYZ after 00:00. Was offered a bus pass to the Fairmont for 01:00.

Porter departed YUL :15 min after my AC flight & landed in YTZ ahead of us. AC Express showed their inexperience. Porter need not worry about the competition IMHO. My question is why would AC even bother entering the YTZ market with a B team, done on the cheap?

On May 30th there were 2 Skyregional and 1 Porter in YYZ that diverted and on May 28th there were 2 Porter and 1 Skyregional in YYZ. Happens all the time, doesn't matter which airline.

[whiteguy]

Porter departed YUL :15 min after my AC flight & landed in YTZ ahead of us. AC Express showed their inexperience. Porter need not worry about the competition IMHO. My question is why would AC even bother entering the YTZ market with a B team, done on the cheap?

What exactly makes them a "B" team? Because they decided not to fly through a thunder storm? Because an airport closed due to curfew?

I love how you base your opinion of an airline on a single flight!

[burhead1]

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/SKV7 ... /CYUL/CYTZ

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/POE4 ... /CYUL/CYTZ

Oh sorry did i win?

[Realitychex]

dashx, that's a bit of a stretch comparison. Porter gets 2 more Q400s at the end of this year. 4 options for 2012. Seems like fairly conservative growth to me.

I'll guarantee Porter's margin is in AMR territory.

Have a nice day.

You keep on worrying about Porter, Realitychex. I'm not, so I'll have a nice day!

Who's worrying about Porter? The harsh reality is that operations that lose money day in and day out are not sustainable indefinitely. It's not exactly rocket science.

[arsenal]

Realitychex:

It's not all doom and gloom at Porter afterall.

WestJet (TSX:WJA) saw its load factor decline 2.9 percentage points to 74.8 per cent as its May capacity grew seven per cent.
"May is considered a shoulder period where our aircraft deployment begins to shift back towards more domestic flying as we gear up for the busy summer season," WestJet president and CEO Gregg Saretsky said in a statement.
"An increase in our domestic capacity this month contributed to a lower year-over-year load factor, but we remain encouraged with the favourable pricing environment and strong year-over-year yields."
Smaller carrier Porter Airlines, which operates out of Toronto's downtown Billy Bishop Airport, reported its passenger traffic rose 43.8 per cent year-over-year in May to its highest level ever, as capacity grew 18.5 per cent.
Porter's load factor increased to 59.5 per cent, also a record for the company.
"The May numbers are an indication that we are solidifying and building the business on all fronts," president and CEO Robert Deluce said in a statement.
"Even with significant new capacity and cities being added to the network, Porter is seeing unprecedented results."

[Realitychex]

Realitychex:

It's not all doom and gloom at Porter afterall.

WestJet (TSX:WJA) saw its load factor decline 2.9 percentage points to 74.8 per cent as its May capacity grew seven per cent.
"May is considered a shoulder period where our aircraft deployment begins to shift back towards more domestic flying as we gear up for the busy summer season," WestJet president and CEO Gregg Saretsky said in a statement.
"An increase in our domestic capacity this month contributed to a lower year-over-year load factor, but we remain encouraged with the favourable pricing environment and strong year-over-year yields."
Smaller carrier Porter Airlines, which operates out of Toronto's downtown Billy Bishop Airport, reported its passenger traffic rose 43.8 per cent year-over-year in May to its highest level ever, as capacity grew 18.5 per cent.
Porter's load factor increased to 59.5 per cent, also a record for the company.
"The May numbers are an indication that we are solidifying and building the business on all fronts," president and CEO Robert Deluce said in a statement.
"Even with significant new capacity and cities being added to the network, Porter is seeing unprecedented results."

Unprecedented results?

Is that like when the airline repeatedly reported the airline was "highly profitable", then issued a preliminary prospectus a few months later that showed net losses since launch in excess of $40m, and then issued a supplemental prospectus that showed even worse losses in their most recent, (at that time) quarter?

Let's face it. There's a wee bit of a credibility gap here. Unless they show quarterly numbers to back up the claims, the adjectives are just brave words on a page.....

I suspect the "unprecedented loads" are at the expense of yields. With higher unit costs due to fuel and the progressive end of the maintenance holiday on portions of the fleet, how much do you want to bet their BELF is in the low to mid 60% range these days?

As for WJA, it's an annual ritual at WJ that May tends to drag as all that sun capacity is more or less turned into domestic capacity overnight, together with the annual organic growth. Remember:, Unlike other airlines that park almost 17-20% of their capacity in the winter, WJ runs their fleet hard year round.

Every May there's handwringing by various analysts over the issue. By mid June, the capacity is absorbed and the numbers are where conventional wisdom says they should be.

It's an annual cycle, it's been going on for years now, but those with goldfish memories tend to forget about it every spring.

[Valhalla]

wow... I'm tired of reading this highly biased speculative drivel.

[wordstwice]

Can we please have just one post about Porter without someone attacking their financials!!!

Porter is a great company with alot of success and alot of hurdles to still overcome, let's just wish them well!!!

[justwork]

Can we please have just one post about Porter without someone attacking their financials!!!

Porter is a great company with alot of success and alot of hurdles to still overcome, let's just wish them well!!!

Amen. It's always the same guys talking about how porter will never make it. It's been what, 5 or 6 years now? $50 million dollar airport, 24 brand new airplanes, 15 destinations (I think), over 200 pilots... Only competition is Air Canada operating 1 route out of the island. I remember when people were saying west jet would never make it. Didn't AC just post a $66 million dollar loss last quarter? Can't remember. I'm hoping that Porter has continued success, keeps 200 more resume's off of a lot of desks.

[dashx]

dashx, that's a bit of a stretch comparison

Maybe so.

The new Jazz 400's are starting to roll out. Let's pretend (for a moment) that Sky Regional is a just an acid test. Testing the waters (so to speak).

Porter has the edge at YTZ. And I certainly can't see Porter losing the advantage of the Island to anyone. But again (as I said sarcastically) the click is clocking.

Time will make fools of us. I hope it makes a fool of me. But having seen what AC is capable of (and what it did back in the 80's on the island I will say that it is just a matter of time. And not in a malicious way.

So is that a bit of a stretch too?

[Realitychex]

Can we please have just one post about Porter without someone attacking their financials!!!

Porter is a great company with alot of success and alot of hurdles to still overcome, let's just wish them well!!!

Amen. It's always the same guys talking about how porter will never make it. It's been what, 5 or 6 years now? $50 million dollar airport, 24 brand new airplanes, 15 destinations (I think), over 200 pilots... Only competition is Air Canada operating 1 route out of the island. I remember when people were saying west jet would never make it. Didn't AC just post a $66 million dollar loss last quarter? Can't remember. I'm hoping that Porter has continued success, keeps 200 more resume's off of a lot of desks.

It would be a great story if they were profitable. They aren't.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[Troubleshot]

Can we please have just one post about Porter without someone attacking their financials!!!

Porter is a great company with alot of success and alot of hurdles to still overcome, let's just wish them well!!!

Amen. It's always the same guys talking about how porter will never make it. It's been what, 5 or 6 years now? $50 million dollar airport, 24 brand new airplanes, 15 destinations (I think), over 200 pilots... Only competition is Air Canada operating 1 route out of the island. I remember when people were saying west jet would never make it. Didn't AC just post a $66 million dollar loss last quarter? Can't remember. I'm hoping that Porter has continued success, keeps 200 more resume's off of a lot of desks.

It would be a great story if they were profitable. They aren't.

Don't shoot the messenger.

OK fair enough...but why do you feel the need to be the messenger? What are your motives?

[Realitychex]

[/quote]
OK fair enough...but why do you feel the need to be the messenger? What are your motives?[/quote]

I have a pathological aversion to bullsh*t.

I would never trust, nor base my career aspirations on or with an organization that makes claim after claim about its fiscal achievements but rarely backs them up with hard data. When they do, their claims are often proven to be completely and utterly fictitious.

Sedar documents don't lie.

If I were going to invest in an aviation career, I'd do it with a company that has a track record of proven profitability or one that is rapidly gaining traction, (ie PROFIT, not to be confused with marketshare) in the marketplace.

We all know countless people whose careers and personal finances were blown apart as a result of blind trust in their employer. Better to have your eyes wide open than your head in the sand. With knowledge and critical thinking comes comes the ability to make informed decisions.

Is Porter's product good? Absolutely. So was Roots Air.

Are Porter's economics sustainable? At this juncture, I'd be willing to wager they are not.

There is not a single iota of independently verifiable evidence to suggest it is. However, the magic of expansion, (ie selling inventory on 24 aircraft, but only have operating expenses of 20 aircraft), allows airlines the luxury of cash flowing for a long, long time without ever showing a profit or any retained earnings.

Venture capitalists want liquidity and a return on their investment. Ventures that don't turn a profit and show no signs of allowing investors to cash out do not make investors happy. Companies that perpetually lose money are always looking for sources of new capital to continue to finance operations and growth. No capital = no growth and then the cash flow spiral dive starts. Add a hiccup in the economy and things can turn south very, very quickly.

[Troubleshot]

I understand your points but I still don't see why you feel the need to bring it up everytime Porter is mentioned here. As I see it Porter employs over 1000 people, has a great product and are trying to make a go of it. Of course Porter is going to project themselves in a positive light (misleading or not), why would they do any different?

you say you would "never base your career aspirations on or with an organization that makes claim after claim about its fiscal achievements" so you must have started with WestJet right out of college then, you have never worked for a struggling company? I have worked for 4 airlines, layed off from 2 of them and worked for a few small outfits that operated month to month some years due to money problems....since I have work for some struggling companies (under your logic) I am a complete idiot and am wasting my time. The way I see it I have been exposed to great people, training on several types of aircraft, ideas from different people, etc...

As far as peoples financials getting blown apart, well....what do you expect people to do? Is westjet going to hire all these people if they decide your right and Porter is a sham? No. This is the way the industry has always been and always will be. Sure WestJet has been an exception to rule here in Canada but everyone can't work for WestJet now can they. And if your soooo concerned about people's financials you should be supporting your peers rather than getting in a sarcastic jab at every opportunity.

WestJet represents a small precentage of the aviation comunity in Canada in total, so when you continually throw it in peoples faces that your doing great and the rest of us are stupid...well...

Why aren't you all cheery and nice like your TV ads? Seems like you protray the exact opposite of what your company trys to sell.

Anyways....your right and the rest of us slobs are wasting our time...what the hell are we thinking?

[Rotten Apple #1]

Just for clarification, Troubleshot, our friend Realitychex does not work for WJ. He is an independent airline analyst/consultant. Evaluating airlines' financial states and business plans is his 'thing'. Don't expect sympathy about the plight of employees etc, that is not his gig.

[The Raven]

Maybe he doesn't work for WestJet now, but he used to.

Realitychex=Mark Hill

[Rotten Apple #1]

Correct. I was replying mainly to Troubleshot's point here:

Why aren't you all cheery and nice like your TV ads? Seems like you protray the exact opposite of what your company trys to sell.

It ain't his company anymore. Once, yes. Now, not so much.

[Arctic84]

Maybe he doesn't work for WestJet now, but he used to.

Realitychex=Mark Hill

Mark Hill. Bah, what's that guy ever done?

Other than write the business plans for WestJet, Jetblue, and Volaris. I guess the Ontario Teachers, David Neelman, and Carlos Slim (look him up) were looking for a second stringer.

Ignore him at your peril.

[Valhalla]

Just for clarification, Troubleshot, our friend Realitychex does not work for WJ. He is an independent airline analyst/consultant. Evaluating airlines' financial states and business plans is his 'thing'. Don't expect sympathy about the plight of employees etc, that is not his gig.

Ok, now this all makes sense. Mark Hill, I owe you an apology. I'm sorry... I thought you were writing essay upon essay slandering Porter's financials, as a fellow professional pilot. That, to me, seemed like you were just being a jerk. But instead, you're just doing your job. You get paid to do this. Got it. You were posting every day, it seemed, during the Porter IPO bid last year. Then you went completely silent on the subject until now, when the rumors are spreading of another IPO attempt. Shall we expect more of the same expert analysis this time??

From now on, I promise I will not take it personally that you are attacking the company I work for. Nor, will I try to convince you that you are wrong, because you can't be convinced. You're just doing your job.