thwaites decision

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Raymond Hall
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Raymond Hall »

Bede wrote:So was this decision just to be an interim one, and a declaration made that a hearing of the charter issue would me heard?
Normally hearings are not split at all. The Tribunal would hear an entire case at one time, liability and remedy. However, due to the complex issues of law and the voluminous evidence on several issues, not only was this case split between liability and remedy, but liability was split between the merits of the statutory provision and the constitutionality of the statutory provision.

Hence, hearing on the merits. Decision. If a finding on the merits leaves the complaints not substantiated, then there is a hearing on the constitutionality. If the complaints are not substantiated on the constitutionality, they would then be dismissed. If they are substantiated, the Tribunal would then convene a hearing to determine the remedy.
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Bede »

Thanks for the clarification Ray. Makes sense, but it would be an awfully crappy way to lose a case if counsel doesn't consent to a hearing of the other issues. Appeals are always an uphill battle.
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Johnny Mapleleaf
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Johnny Mapleleaf »

Mechanic787 wrote:How is it that the Tribunal in this decision could arrive at a determination, interpreting the Court's words in the 2009 decision, that airlines that the Court specifically included in the comparator group in that decision, namely WestJet, Air Transat, and Skyservice, are not included in the comparator group in this decision because they don't meet the Court's unchanged criteria, but that a carrier like Air Tindi (with fewer than 75 pilots) is in the comparator group because it does meet the Court's criteria?
Look at it from the flip side. The onus was on the employer to prove that the majority of pilots "working in positions similar to the position of that individual" retire at age 60. But Air Canada is the only employer in Canada that still terminates its pilots at age 60.

The Tribunal, by excluding WestJet, Skyservice and Air Transat, has determined that pilot jobs at those three airlines are not "positions similar" to pilot jobs at Air Canada, but that a pilot job at Air Tindi is. In fact, none of the jobs at Air Canada's main competitors, according to the Tribunal, are "positions similar" to the Air Canada pilot job, even though the pilots fly almost identical aircraft to and from almost all of the same destinations and points of departure. Does that make any sense at all? Not to me, it doesn't. And it probably won't make much sense to the court either.

There is one other thing that I don't understand about these numbers. If the Tribunal is looking at "positions similar" to the Air Canada pilot job, why are the Air Canada pilot numbers included in the calculation? As I see it, 100% of the pilots in positions similar to the Air Canada pilot position do not retire at age 60, regardless of whether the positions similar include Air Canada's three major competitors, so how can age 60 be the "normal age of retirement for pilots in positions similar?

What number JR is this going to be? Five? Six?
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Johnny Mapleleaf
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Johnny Mapleleaf »

On the subject of "don't count your chickens before they hatch" anyone who thought that the Thwaites case ended with the Tribunal's dismissal of the complaints in its decision of August 10th better think again.

According to an update that I just received from the Coalition, Air Canada has now agreed to join in writing a letter from all counsel to the Tribunal asking the Tribunal to continue the Thwaites hearing to address the Charter issue.

My guess is that that will be a very short hearing. Both Air Canada and ACPA will likely want to argue the whole Charter issue again with lots of evidence and expert witness testimony, but my guess is that the Tribunal won't allow that to happen. The Tribunal is bound by the Court's decision on the Charter in Vilven and Kelly, so no new evidence is likely to be heard. And Mr. Sinclair will not likely be the one deciding the issue, given that his term expired two years ago and that he has already been replaced on one of the hearings.

The next step after the hearing on the Charter will be a remedy hearing for reinstatement and damages for all 70 complainants, and with the BFOR issue now dead, we are likley to seem some pretty significant changes before very long. The key question now, of course, is the potential joint liability to Air Canada and ACPA not just for these 70 pilots, but for these and the 90 following them through the process. Big, big bucks. Sticker shock.
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Rockie
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Rockie »

Personally I would like to see ACPA formally acknowledge the potential liability based on the existing award to V & K as well as an estimate of the legal and administrative costs to date, and give some indication how the members will be required to pay for it. That bucket of cold reality that has to date been completely AWOL should generate some very interesting discussion. A figure was unofficially suggested by an MEC member on the forum but it seems to have been completely ignored by everyone present. Those who did respond were more interested in taking this MEC officer to task for his suspected heretical view that ACPA might lose.

ACPA is justifiably scared s**tless of the day they have to tell the members the truth.
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Johnny Mapleleaf »

Rockie wrote:A figure was unofficially suggested by an MEC member on the forum but it seems to have been completely ignored by everyone present.
I read that post, Rockie. I didn't ignore it. For once, someone in ACPA openly talked about this most serious issue facing it--namely how is the union possibly going to come up with the amount suggested, namely, as the poster stated, "approximately $8 million each and growing." The amount, $16 million, was to be divided equally between the employer and the union.

And the number, on its face, is realistic. 160 pilots, with a claim of over one year each on average, many with claims of five years. Let's assume than none of them gets more than the $100,000 or so that was paid to each of Vilven and Kelly as a result of Air Canada's actuary suggesting to the Tribunal that it owed Neil Kelly $10,000 per month for the difference between his salary and his pension.

Even at only $100,000 each, that is $100,000 x 160 pilots = $16 million, divided by 2 = $8 million payable by ACPA. What on earth are they thinking? Like, divine intervention will arrive to prevent this financial strategic disaster? How does a union come up with $8 million to pay damages? There is only one answer, and that is a "special assessment." $2,500 from each member, minimum.

The real question will be whether they expect the reinstated complainants to be assessed a portion of their union dues to pay for the assessment of their own damages. And the beat goes on....
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sepia
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by sepia »

Johnny Mapleleaf wrote: How does a union come up with $8 million to pay damages? There is only one answer, and that is a "special assessment." $2,500 from each member, minimum.
Johnny Fear squad: Ummm declare bankruptcy and then form a new union? I love that you're now the worlds expert on how to deal with a problem that may or may not ever exist, and you've got the exact financial figures nailed down.

I absolutely how you guys have taken your glee squad here. You fab five giving each other high fives after every post doesn't make your case any stronger. In all reality, right now it's before the courts, and most likely won't leave that realm for awhile yet. So put down your pom poms and just let things play out. Shouldn't you be telling us why the last 2 court cases you've lost don't matter, and that the sky is falling faster then ever?
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Rockie »

sepia wrote:Johnny Fear squad: Ummm declare bankruptcy and then form a new union?
Please clarify this so there is no mistake. Are you suggesting that when the fight is finally over ACPA simply declares bankruptcy to avoid even more of its legal obligations?

If that's the case you should think again. I believe ACPA has about $10 million sitting in a strike fund, and if they don't wish to use that they are left with either financing it or issuing a special assessment. But do you really think they'll have any luck convincing a judge they're bankrupt? And then there is the larger issue of what it says about Air Canada pilots. They will be the group that fought to the bitter end to perpetuate a discriminatory practice against its own members, then sleazily tried to duck out of paying for it.

Yup, makes me proud.
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Johnny Mapleleaf
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Johnny Mapleleaf »

sepia wrote:
Johnny Mapleleaf wrote: Shouldn't you be telling us why the last 2 court cases you've lost don't matter, and that the sky is falling faster then ever?
I thought that you would never ask.

OK. Let's talk about the last case that we lost. The Tribunal Chair who gave us his decision took so long to produce the decision that he forgot that once he dealt with the mandatory retirement exemption on its merits, he was then to deal with the Charter application to that exemption. He dismissed the complaints. Now Air Canada has agreed to tell him to reverse his mistake and continue on hearing the case. Embarrassing.

The second last case that we "lost" is almost as mundane. The esteemed former member of the judiciary did not apply any of the three mandatory legal tests to assess if a BFOR defence was made out. In fact, he totally overlooked the fact that a bona fide occupational requirement is based on an occupational requirement. Yes. Occupational requirement. Job-related. Tasks required to be performed by the employee. In the words of the Supreme Court of Canada, the purpose of mandatory retirement must be "a work related purpose rationally connected to the performance of the job." He said that a collective bargaining purpose met that test. Embarrassing.

Read the paragraphs in the Meiorin decision that follow the three-step test. That should leave you with no doubt, as it did for Chair Sinclair in the Thwaites decision, that the BFOR argument fails on all three steps. Further, if he had seriously considered the Meiorin decision, he would have seen that each and every BFOR complaint requires the employer to assess accommodation on a case-by-case basis. The evidence was that Air Canada made no such assessment; rather it blindly followed its policy of terminating everyone without assessing whether the individuals in the complaint who are subject to no ICAO restriction, such as First Officers Vilven and Kelly, even needed any “accommodation.”

Now, are there any other cases that you would like me to tell you about?
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sepia
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by sepia »

Ah yes, why of course. Every case that doesn't go your way is flawed to it's very core. Every case that has gone your way is the very definition of Canadian legal perfection.

Like I said earlier, maybe a bit less of the fear mongering would do you good. It just makes you guys out to be a bunch of hysterics, which may or may not be the case.


Rockie: So you're actually saying ACPA could pay the legal fee and still have MILLIONS left in the bank? Just a second ago there I thought the only possible way to pay this off was to take away all the acpa members houses? Which one is it again? Take our houses, or pay it off and not blink? You guys are both the words premier experts on the issue, so it's almost unthinkable that you'd be posting such mixed messages. Maybe a quick round of additional fear mongering and you to can give each other a nice hi-5 is what the doctor is calling for?
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Johnny Mapleleaf »

sepia wrote:Ah yes, why of course. Every case that doesn't go your way is flawed to it's very core. Every case that has gone your way is the very definition of Canadian legal perfection. Like I said earlier, maybe a bit less of the fear mongering would do you good. It just makes you guys out to be a bunch of hysterics, which may or may not be the case.
You, as a moderator of this Forum, should be one to set an example by focusing on the substance of the issues, rather than on the alleged emotional dispositions of the other contributors.

Here is something for you to seriously consider. Words from the Meiorin decision. After all, the CHRT, being an "expert tribunal" is required to decide questions of law that are very likely to wind up before the Supreme Court of Canada. Based upon the July decision, it looks like he got into the wrong airplane with the wrong flight plan, wouldn't you say? Do you honestly believe that the Tribunal member who decided the case even bothered to read the Meiorin decision, let alone that he understood it?

Students in my high school grade 12 law class would ask themselves the same question, based on the logic of the decision in the context of the SCC requirements set out in these paragraphs:
57 The first step in assessing whether the employer has successfully established a BFOR defence is to identify the general purpose of the impugned standard and determine whether it is rationally connected to the performance of the job.

58 The employer must demonstrate that there is a rational connection between the general purpose for which the impugned standard was introduced and the objective requirements of the job.

59 If there is no rational relationship between the general purpose of the standard and the tasks properly required of the employee, then there is of course no need to continue to assess the legitimacy of the particular standard itself. Without a legitimate general purpose underlying it, the standard cannot be a BFOR.
Now, here is how he justifies the BFOR:
[48] The third step in Meiorin requires a determination whether the standard was established to accomplish a legitimate purpose. Again, persuaded by Captains Duke’s evidence, I conclude on a balance of probabilities that the work standard of mandatory retirement in the collective bargaining agreement between Air Canada and ACPA was intended to accomplish the legitimate purpose of melding the company’s needs with the collective rights and needs of its pilots.
What on earth does “melding the company’s needs with the collective rights and needs of its pilots” have to do with “the tasks properly required of the employee”?

There is nothing hysterical about asking that question. I would be willing to bet that the Court is going to wind up asking Air Canada and ACPA the very same question, just before it summarily quashes this wingy decision.

At least Mr. Sinclair, for all his memory lapses, got this part right in his decision released the following month, coming to the polar opposite conclusion on the basis of carefully articulated reasons. Here is how he dealt with the issue:
[343] If the essence of what Air Canada pilots do is flying aircraft of varying sizes and types, transporting passengers to both domestic and international destinations, it is difficult to see how the age of the pilot bears any relationship to the performance of the job.

[344] It is very telling that Transport Canada, the federal regulatory agency responsible for licencing commercial pilots, does not impose any maximum age restriction. In fact, in its submission to ICAO on the question of raising the maximum age of PICs for international flights, Canada’s position was that there should not be any age restriction. Canada has no objections to pilots who are 60 years of age or older holding a medically valid licence from flying within Canadian airspace.

[345] As to the second step of Meiorin, I do not question that the age 60 rule was adopted with an honest and good faith belief. But if it was not adopted for a purpose connected to the performance of the job, it cannot be necessary for the fulfillment of that work-related purpose.
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Last edited by Johnny Mapleleaf on Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rockie
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Rockie »

sepia wrote:Rockie: So you're actually saying ACPA could pay the legal fee and still have MILLIONS left in the bank? Just a second ago there I thought the only possible way to pay this off was to take away all the acpa members houses? Which one is it again? Take our houses, or pay it off and not blink? You guys are both the words premier experts on the issue, so it's almost unthinkable that you'd be posting such mixed messages. Maybe a quick round of additional fear mongering and you to can give each other a nice hi-5 is what the doctor is calling for?
I did not say ACPA could pay the legal fee and still have millions left in the bank. Read what I said again. I did not ever say the only possible way to pay this off was to take away anybody's house. Read what I said again.

Better still, read what the MEC member said on the ACP forum, and if you still want to accuse someone of fear mongering maybe you should start with him. In fact please do. If you think it's fear mongering then ask for a clarification on the potential liability publicly on the forum and insist that the MEC chair answer it.

Ask them.
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Morry Bund »

sepia wrote:Ah yes, Like I said earlier, maybe a bit less of the fear mongering would do you good. It just makes you guys out to be a bunch of hysterics, which may or may not be the case.
There is a difference between fear mongering and opinions that are based on facts. There is a big difference between saying that we can believe the change is coming when we actually see the change implemented, and seeing the underpinnings of one's position being constantly chipped away, bit by bit to the point where there is no longer any basis on which to mount a defence. The tribunal and the court has ended the mandatory retirement exemption. The BFOR defence is toast. The government is repealing the exemption, in any event. Every union at Air Canada except ACPA has now agreed to end mandatory retirement.

Case in point: I was talking to a flight attendant today. He told me that Air Canada has now offered to settle the age discrimination complaints of several over 65 F/A's by allowing them to come back to work provided that they waive any claim for damages. I cannot verify the truth of that statement, but if it is valid, which makes a lot of sense, given the impending arbitration of their case similar to the arbitrations of the mechanics and sales agents, that would leave the pilots as the only union that has not been given an offer by Air Canada to continue working past the normal age of retirement.

It doesn’t make any difference at all whether these flight attendants accept the offer or not, or whether they get any damages or not. The point is, if Air Canada has offered some flight attendants the option of coming back to work after age 65, it will have to allow all flight attendants the option of working beyond age 65. Apparently there was no “maximum age” mentioned in the offer. Air Canada is obviously running out of trump cards in its hand, because you can bet that this decision was not something that it embraced easily given the average age of the flight attendants working for its competitors. The prospect of 85-year old flight attendants has never been attractive to this company, as I see it. But times have changed, because change they must.

That is not fear mongering. That is reality. The noose on ACPA's intransigent position keeps getting tighter and tighter. How long will Air Canada continue to support ACPA's refusal to adapt, now that the BFOR argument is fried, and given that Air Canada now has no logical or legal basis to treat the pilots any differently than any of the other employees with regard to mandatory retirement? Not long.

It’s time to come out of the cocoon and look at reality.
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ahramin
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by ahramin »

Since we seem to have some legal types here, is there likely to be any fallout for the Tribunal since they appear to be completely unable to understand the laws they are supposed to be applying? Who hires these people and can they be fired for incompetence?
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by ahramin »

Oh, and does anyone know what the explanation is for the Tribunal deciding that Westjet and Air Transat aren't similar to Air Canada for retirement age? I could perhaps understand Westjet due to a lack of people anywhere close to retirement age there, but Air Transat? I don't know the personal situations of the Tribunal members but it smacks more of corruption than simple incompetence.
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Johnny Mapleleaf »

ahramin wrote:I don't know the personal situations of the Tribunal members but it smacks more of corruption than simple incompetence.
I think that it is preferable to avoid assumptions that bring into question the motivation and integrity of the adjudicators. That is a slippery slope, and ironically usually reflects more of the observer than of the adjudicator. I don't see the decisions as providing any reason to accuse anyone or even suspect anyone at the Tribunal of acting in an improper manner, or worse. The decisions are likely legitimate, although with more than a few imperfections in each.

A better course of introspection would be to question the underlying rationale of the outcome. In the July decision the Tribunal displayed a frustrating lack of understanding of the core issue that it was required to consider. In addition, it overlooked the most basic requirements of the test that was mandated by the court to be applied to the complaints. More effort put into understanding the background and context of the issue would certainly have provided a more principled decision, regardless of which side the ultimate decision would favour.

The August decision displays an entirely different set of frailties.
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by ahramin »

I think that it is preferable to avoid assumptions that bring into question the motivation and integrity of the adjudicators.
Point taken. I'd still like to know how these people get appointed and if there is some way to get rid of them if they prove incapable of doing the job properly.
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Mechanic787 »

ahramin wrote:I'd still like to know how these people get appointed and if there is some way to get rid of them if they prove incapable of doing the job properly.
All federal Tribunal and Board appointments are made directly or indirectly through the office of the Minister of Justice of the day.

I am advised that there is a quaint legal procedure for challenging the authority of any appointment (called "quo warranto") that stems from the days of the King's writs. It is one of what is known as the "prerogative writs." Others include certiorari, habeas corpus, mandamus, prohibition and procendo. Apparently, quo warranto is extremely rarely used today, primarily because of the difficulty of meeting the evidentiary requirement to issue the writ.

A more common means of dealing with performance problems is to simply have the administrative body handle the issue through its own internal procedures, much as companies do with workers who display performance difficulties.
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by 777longhaul »

New update on www.flypast60.com

Update is Aug 24 2011.

Go to the top left corner, and look for Last Update.
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Rockie »

"Meanwhile, the implications of the July Tribunal decision are becoming more and more apparent and pervasive. In a bizarre twist, both XXXX XXXX and XXXX XXXX were placed on a "leave of absence without pay" status by Air Canada, effective August 1st, as a result of the July decision, instead of having their employment terminated as a result of the nullification of the remedy decision. This action clearly contravenes the provisions of the collective agreement and leaves them in a sort of "limbo," with no salary and no pension! Because a pilot on a LOA is still employed by Air Canada, ACPA is the sole party able to represent his or her employment rights under the provisions of the collective agreement. However, when XXXX XXXX last week asked ACPA to step in and help him get out of this no-income, "limbo" status, ACPA sent him a letter stating that his employment had been terminated, and that therefore it no longer represented him. Wrong. Air Canada confirmed later the same day, in writing, that he is still employed. Further demands to ACPA to resolve this problem have so far failed to produce any meaningful response, as of this date."

While many members are no doubt delighted at the way ACPA is treating these two individuals, they would be wise to consider their turn may be next. A union has a legal obligation with respect to all its members in return for the right to solely represent them. This union is trampling all over its responsibilities and we cannot let them get away with it.

You might like it now but a union that will do this to one member for this reason will do it to any member for any reason they see fit...INCLUDING YOU!
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by yycflyguy »

Why not request a special seniority list be produced by AC. If their names are on it, they are still employed, if not... I am sure that flypast60 would claim discrepancy in their status to further their discrimination angle but has anyone actually seen either the "termination" or "employed" letters??
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by vic777 »

yycflyguy wrote:Why not request a special seniority list be produced by AC.
Traditionally, the seniority list is created by the Union and rubber stamped by the Company. In this case we have a Union with its' head stuck very far up its' ass. When the dust settles, cash settlements will be paid, and all will be well. The two Pilots must be fairly compensated for the additional strife the Union has inflicted on them! What is the mechanism for a LOA without pay, did these two Pilots request this?
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by yycflyguy »

vic777 wrote:
yycflyguy wrote:Why not request a special seniority list be produced by AC.
Traditionally, the seniority list is created by the Union and rubber stamped by the Company. In this case we have a Union with its' head stuck very far up its' ass. When the dust settles, cash settlements will be paid, and all will be well. The two Pilots must be fairly compensated for the additional strife the Union has inflicted on them! What is the mechanism for a LOA without pay, did these two Pilots request this?
.... or is it a case that they were never entitled to return to work and never should have been taken off pension? Perhaps it is the pension that owes them for lost income?

What is the pension calculation for someone that terminated their pension and was back on the job for 8 months? Could it be by terminating their pension to return to work they wont be eligible for their YOS?
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Rockie »

yycflyguy wrote: has anyone actually seen either the "termination" or "employed" letters??
Rockie wrote:Air Canada confirmed later the same day, in writing, that he is still employed.
As counsel for the fly past 60 group Raymond would have seen it. A union's responsibility to the "employees" they represent (note it does not say "members") is explicitly laid out in Labour Law that has been quoted several times on this forum. Air Canada has confirmed in writing that the two individuals are still employed hence the union's obligations are just as explicitly clear. Yet they still refuse to do as they are required by law to do.

At what point will the membership insist ACPA start honouring their legal obligations as a union?
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by vic777 »

Rockie wrote: At what point will the membership insist ACPA start honouring their legal obligations as a union?
Maybe never, as they say, "You get the Government you deserve". The ACPA leadership was, "the best", that the membership could come up with. Of course the entire membership has paid, and will continue to pay, a huge price for that leadership.
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