PILOT JOB ROAD SHOW FOR QATAR AIRWAYS

[Joe Blow Schmo]

Please tell me where I can go and make 3 times what I do here Mr Joe Blow Schmo
I would love to know that.

My comment was directed at 737 captains in Canada who aren't at Westjet (as it said in my post). Those guys at Sunwing or Canjet making 90K gross or about $60k net can triple their take home by coming to Asia.

I'm not knocking QR. In my first post I said if I were still in Canada and not working at WJ or AC I would definitely look at QR.

[complexintentions]

hi Joe,

Not trying to be argumentative, just wanted to clear up a couple things. I kinda confused things a bit with my input, I was mostly trying to comment on the ME in general. I'm not at Qatar, I'm at Emirates, but the major outfits out here are more similar than not. I'm a captain, but I started as an FO (as opposed to a direct entry captain), so obviously the pay was less at the time and as it has scaled up, so have the savings accordingly. My FO figures were pretty close to what Obbie is quoting so I would guess their (Qatar's) captain scales are in the same ballpark.

You are correct about things always costing more than you think they would - that applies just about anywhere now. But the $2200 I quoted for housing - in Dubai, which I have to think is more expensive than Doha - is what I actually currently pay to rent a brand new, two-bedroom apartment on the main road in Dubai. No way I'd live in a dump, just to save a few bucks. If I had elected to stay in company accommodation, I would have been eligible for a 3-4 bedroom villa, all expenses paid by the company. You are correct that to rent a comparable property, would be a lot more than $2200, which is why guys with families often choose to stay in the company-provided housing. Since I didn't require a villa (no present of former family!), I opted for the allowance as a way to make extra cash. Point is, the choice is yours: you are completed insulated from housing costs if you stay in the company accommodation. If you're an FO with a family, it's a no-brainer to stay in a company villa at least until you upgrade and then consider your options. Time to upgrade when I joined was about three years, so that represented a massive time savings as well, if I had a pursued the similar career path in Canada to fly comparable equipment to comparable destinations. The upgrade timeline at EK has slipped considerably since though, the opportunities are probably better at Etihad and Qatar currently.

But I have to say, 34 cent gasoline, or the myth of cheap jet fuel, has nothing whatsoever to do with the competitiveness of ME airlines. The UAE - as one example - with it's massive oil reserves in Abu Dhabi, has very limited refining capacity, and in fact imports their Jet A from Singapore. At market rates. And of course, with a worldwide network, they receive no concessions at outstations. This idea that they pump it out of the ground, into the planes, thus make fortunes, is just not true. They have several other major advantages, to be sure: cheap labour, very PRODUCTIVE labour (myself and Obbie in those ranks!), great geographical positioning, among others. But fuel isn't one of them, as counterintuitive as that sounds.

The place isn't for everyone, but I try to help folks learn what they can before they take the leap.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

But I have to say, 34 cent gasoline, or the myth of cheap jet fuel, has nothing whatsoever to do with the competitiveness of ME airlines. The UAE - as one example - with it's massive oil reserves in Abu Dhabi, has very limited refining capacity, and in fact imports their Jet A from Singapore. At market rates. And of course, with a worldwide network, they receive no concessions at outstations. This idea that they pump it out of the ground, into the planes, thus make fortunes, is just not true. They have several other major advantages, to be sure: cheap labour, very PRODUCTIVE labour (myself and Obbie in those ranks!), great geographical positioning, among others. But fuel isn't one of them, as counterintuitive as that sounds.

Where do they get their car gas from? Do they refine that themselves? If it's 34c/litre the government must subsidise the fuel, assuming they do the same for all fuel, that would make jet fuel significantly cheaper in the UAE than elsewhere. Since EK, EY, QR etc buy probably at least 60% of their fuel in the region compared to other airlines that buy little to none, that would be a significant advantage. It can be assumed that jet fuel in Dubai is cheaper than elsewhere simply from the response Emirates' PR department gives anytime they are questioned on it. Their standard response is "We pay the same for jet fuel in Dubai as all the other airlines". If it were the same price as elsewhere they would say "Jet fuel in Dubai is about the same price as most of our other markets". What the PR people don't say is more important that what they do say. Of course I don't know what they actually pay for fuel but I think there PR statement is a pretty good indication. I'm not knocking it either, if I got cheap gas I'd take advantage of it too. The cheap, productive labour is also an advantage when compared to most North American or European airlines, but most operators in Asia have cheap, productive labour too so not that much of an advantage here.

Of course none of that is relevant to working at any of the ME airlines though. I think they're probably the best options available for any pilot who doesn't meet the requirements for some of the good DEC contracts out there. Not to mention the quick command means you really don't have to stay too long if you decide you don't like it. You guys work way to hard for my liking though

[complexintentions]

Heck, we work too hard for MY liking too! But labour is just exchanged for money, so money represents labour. More money in less time = less labour. Each year in Dubai has saved me about four at least in Canada, labour-wise. So in the end working overseas for ten years saves me 30-40 years or so in Canada. The key is enjoying your time doing it, which everyone needs to find in their own way. I look forward to living debt-free in Canada soon without particularly having to work at all, meanwhile I'm operating to places I never would have had the chance to see, on equipment and in a position I'd never have if I'd stayed on the treadmill in Canada. To each their own I guess.

Auto gas in Dubai is heavily subsidized by the government. It's about 45 cents/litre. The national petrol companies lose millions every year, it's a well-publicized fact. Aviation fuel is entirely separate. People are free to believe what they want, of course and when it comes to certain things no amount of facts will persuade them otherwise. But for what it's worth:

Oil

It is undeniable that many Middle East governments are oil-rich. But myths about Emirates’ access to free or discounted oil fall flat on their face. Dubai has extremely limited oil resources, forcing it to innovate into other fields and opening the way for foreign fuel suppliers to dominate at Dubai International. As CNN once aptly put it, “Dubai is a story of survival - how one small city running out of oil saved itself with a mixture of tourism, commercialism, and pizzazz.” As a result, Emirates’ fuel costs are wholly comparable with those of other major long-haul carriers. In 2010/11 fuel accounted for 34.4% (US$4.6 billion) of Emirates’ total operating costs - up by over 40% on the previous year.

Many countries in the Gulf are blessed with abundant oil reserves, making it easy to offer below-market rates for jet fuel. Saudi Arabian Airlines for example enjoys favourable fuel prices.
But Dubai was not blessed with oil, which in turn forced it to create a service-based economy, leading to the establishment of globally competitive firms such as Emirates, dnata (with operations in 38 countries) and DP World, the world’s third largest ports operator.

Emirates procures its fuel at market rates from multiple suppliers at all airports to which it operates, including Dubai International Airport.
The majority of Emirates’ fuel is sourced from BP, Shell and Chevron given there is minimal jet fuel refining capacity in Dubai.

The entire article is posted here:

http://www.emirates.com/english/images/ ... 845771.pdf

Sure, it's published by Emirates as propaganda. But if you scroll down to pages 16-17 for the section on cost base comparison, I'll think you'll find where the real competitive advantage lies. Hint: it's not fuel. It has something to do with there being a whole lot more people on the planet than there are jobs.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

Heck, we work too hard for MY liking too! But labour is just exchanged for money, so money represents labour. More money in less time = less labour. Each year in Dubai has saved me about four at least in Canada, labour-wise. So in the end working overseas for ten years saves me 30-40 years or so in Canada. The key is enjoying your time doing it, which everyone needs to find in their own way. I look forward to living debt-free in Canada soon without particularly having to work at all, meanwhile I'm operating to places I never would have had the chance to see, on equipment and in a position I'd never have if I'd stayed on the treadmill in Canada. To each their own I guess.

Auto gas in Dubai is heavily subsidized by the government. It's about 45 cents/litre. The national petrol companies lose millions every year, it's a well-publicized fact. Aviation fuel is entirely separate. People are free to believe what they want, of course and when it comes to certain things no amount of facts will persuade them otherwise. But for what it's worth:

Oil

It is undeniable that many Middle East governments are oil-rich. But myths about Emirates’ access to free or discounted oil fall flat on their face. Dubai has extremely limited oil resources, forcing it to innovate into other fields and opening the way for foreign fuel suppliers to dominate at Dubai International. As CNN once aptly put it, “Dubai is a story of survival - how one small city running out of oil saved itself with a mixture of tourism, commercialism, and pizzazz.” As a result, Emirates’ fuel costs are wholly comparable with those of other major long-haul carriers. In 2010/11 fuel accounted for 34.4% (US$4.6 billion) of Emirates’ total operating costs - up by over 40% on the previous year.

Many countries in the Gulf are blessed with abundant oil reserves, making it easy to offer below-market rates for jet fuel. Saudi Arabian Airlines for example enjoys favourable fuel prices.
But Dubai was not blessed with oil, which in turn forced it to create a service-based economy, leading to the establishment of globally competitive firms such as Emirates, dnata (with operations in 38 countries) and DP World, the world’s third largest ports operator.

Emirates procures its fuel at market rates from multiple suppliers at all airports to which it operates, including Dubai International Airport.
The majority of Emirates’ fuel is sourced from BP, Shell and Chevron given there is minimal jet fuel refining capacity in Dubai.

The entire article is posted here:

http://www.emirates.com/english/images/ ... 845771.pdf

Sure, it's published by Emirates as propaganda. But if you scroll down to pages 16-17 for the section on cost base comparison, I'll think you'll find where the real competitive advantage lies. Hint: it's not fuel. It has something to do with there being a whole lot more people on the planet than there are jobs.

Don't want to drag this thread too far off topic but those are just number fiddles. You've just said that Emirates has much lower "other" costs than legacy airlines. Labour costs being the big on I guess. Now Emirates says it's fuel cost, as a percentage of total costs is similar to other airlines. Well if other airlines total costs are higher then 34% of that is a much higher number than 34% of Emirates' costs. It's Emirates' own press releases that suggest they do get cheap guess. If there was really nothing to the accusations from other airlines why don't they come and say:

"Those guys are just a bunch of whiny b$t##es. Of the 100 places we buy gas, 35 (or whatever) of them are cheaper than Dubai."

That would shut everybody up. I tried to look through annual reports to compare costs but alas, unlike most airlines, Emirates doesn't report revenue and expenses in relation to ASKs (or at least I couldn't find it). The document you posted does show a small fuel comparison on page 17 and it shows that Emirates does have lower fuel costs per ASK than its competitors. 20% less than Cathay Pacific and almost 30% less than Singapore Airlines. Interesting considering that on page 16 it says Singapore airlines benefits from the lowest jet fuel prices in the world yet it has the highest fuel costs in the chart on page 17. Assuming SQ's info includes SilkAir that might explain some of the difference.

[pelmet]

Talked to an ex-Qatar a320 guy today. I did not ask the details on how he left but he made it sound miserable on the a-320(which I have heard before) due to the ridiculous schedule of day night day night and min crew rest. He said people get fired for very minor issues. Something about not being able to log much of your flight time due to resting periods(he is Italian and I had difficulty understanding). He also said that so many FÀ`s quit that they have a special office just for that and only 7 can quit in one day. If you are number 8....you have to come back tomorrow.

How true it all is...I don`t know.

[loopa]

Is it true that there exists a gentleman agreement between Emirates and Qatar?

No pilot's hired from Qatar to Emirates, and vice versa?

Will they be hiring non rated pilot's soon as well?

Can anyone comment on the Fast Track program as S/O ? How long till you get to become an F/O ?

Pay as an S/O ?

[neophyte]

What do you do with regards to the "maintaining financial ties" to Canada gotcha that the CRA has?

By definition anyone with financial ties to canada (credit card, canadian investments. Homes. Cottages. Property) has to file a tax return in Canada. Just because the Qatar government doesn't tax you doesn't mean your income isn't taxable. Perhaps a tax treaty?

Also curious as to your exit strategy. Is it simply a suitcase of money a Hawaiian shirt and a pair of sunglasses?

Interesting thread.

[Obbie]

The A320 roster is better than it was a couple years ago.
I'm not going to tell you it isn't the work horse of the fleet, it is,
but it has improved and most of the guys I know on it are enjoying it.

As I said, people get fired for not doing their job, just like any other job.
Everybody I know who was fired, either failed to do their job to standard
or were stupid and got caught.

It is not a pilots market right now, and as such I think it will be a while
before NTR pilots are hired again, standby for new ATIS message.

Lets not make this a tax thread, you need to cut your ties with Canada to be
deemed a non-resident for tax purposes. The CRA web site has a lot of info on
this topic, and each person is judged individually case by case, so one answer
will not fit all. I went all in and got rid of everything, so they had nothing to judge,
but this is not always needed.

Basics are

Provincial Health Card Returned
Drivers Lic returned (after you use it to obtain a local Lic)
Car sold and not to a close relative
Credit Cards cancelled
House sold or kept for rental income but you have to file for this income each year
Wife does not remain in Canada
RRSP stays, but contributions must stop, you can manipulate the contents as you wish
No personal Biz still operating

The rumor is Emirates and Qatar have agreed to not raid each others pilot groups.
This is not in writing anywhere but does appear to be honored by both sides.

[dukepoint]

I don't get why guys are so hot to charge over to the Middle East just to earn enough money to retire in Canada. Burn yourself out in he Desert for 20 odd years just to come home worn out, detatched and friendless with money in your pocket??? What if your family doesn't want to join you back here? Are you going to travel 6000 miles to visit your Grandchildren?
Do we really need that gas guzzling Hummer, the condo at Whistler, or a lifetime membership at the Point Grey Golf Club when we're 55 years old? Think of the family relationships and friends you'll be walking away from here in Canada in the name of Cash. Five figures in your pocket every month still won't be enough........you'll want more. Give me a modest paying job in the best country in the world, with a modest pension any day. Just my opinion......

Maybe I just don't get it.......

DP.

[Eric Janson]

Do we really need that gas guzzling Hummer, the condo at Whistler, or a lifetime membership at the Point Grey Golf Club when we're 55 years old? Think of the family relationships and friends you'll be walking away from here in Canada in the name of Cash. Five figures in your pocket every month still won't be enough........you'll want more. Give me a modest paying job in the best country in the world, with a modest pension any day. Just my opinion......

Maybe I just don't get it.......

DP.

@dukepoint

The question "what do you want?" has a different answer for everyone. For example; I don't want a Hummer, a condo at Whistler or a membership at the Point Grey Golf Club.

I moved overseas to further my career. It was never about cash. The fact that I ended up with a nice tax free salary was just a bonus - it wasn't something I planned.

I ended up in Asia because my Airline in Europe went bankrupt. Most of the Expats I worked with in Asia had a similar story - very few of us were in Asia by choice.

Living overseas has its challenges - it's not for everyone. If you have what it takes it can be a very rewarding experience. The 8 years I spent in Asia were the best years of my life - both on professional and personal level. I've seen and done things most people couldn't even begin to imagine. I've made some great friends along the way. No regrets here.

I own my own house, have zero debt and money in the bank. How many people can say that?

For your information - there are an increasing number of western people choosing to retire in Asia.

[complexintentions]

@dukepoint,

If you don't get it, it probably can't be explained to you, but I'll take a stab.

I didn't move to the ME chasing equipment or wealth. I was unemployed and needed a job, one that would last more than a year or two, and allow me to make some financial progress. In aviation, in Canada, those are rare to find. But then to my surprise, I adapted, and it turned out I could tolerate the many challenges of overseas life, and the benefits were quite large compared to the Canadian aviation industry. So I decided to focus on the positives and worked hard to mitigate the negatives. As a result, I am in the same position as Eric: no debt, and wealth to carry me forward a very long ways. Wealth isn't everything, to be sure - nothing will help you appreciate that statement like living in the Middle East amid the very high percentage of materialistic douchebags! But the money I've earned represents TIME. Money earned far, far faster than I could in canada, so time I won't spend working in Canada - unless I choose to. How many people can say that? There is no Hummer in my future. No mortgage either.

My family and friends relationships are just fine. I have friends here, and back in Canada. No family here (the g/f just kicked me! ), and close with siblings who themselves are scattered variously across the Americas anyway. No doubt, having a wife and children here would complicate things - but they add both good stresses and bad, so it all washes out really. With the state of communications and long-range travel it's not quite like it was a few short years ago trying to stay connected. I will not spend 20 years abroad, it will be less than 10 when I get back, the exit strategy is already in place. But in my time here I've gotten to command a B777 to every continent on the planet in virtually every hemisphere, every major city, every environment imaginable, while working and socializing alongside 160 different nationalities. Lack of variety is one problem that doesn't exist! I've gotten to *ahem* taste more experiences (just got kicked again!) than I can practically remember, both good and bad. I just wouldn't get those opportunities in Canada. The fact that I've been able to accumulate multiples of wealth I wouldn't in Canada is simply the icing on the cake.

I like the way you seem to appreciate what you have and would say that it's the key wherever you are. If I had had what you did, even a modest job in Canada (can't agree that it's the best country in the world, that's too simplistic) I wouldn't have left. But I didn't have that, so I took a leap and it worked out, and I'm appreciating it now - particularly with more time behind me than ahead. When I move back, if I do look for a job I honestly don't know how I will adjust to flying to the same handful of domestic city pairs. But I will appreciate the other things that such a job will offer, at that time. They just won't be as much monetary or job interest. There is some niche flying that interests me, and I will have the luxury of considering the paycheque as a secondary consideration.

Couple things though. I wouldn't count too much on the pension, modest or otherwise. Demographics alone renders anything other than a defined-contribution pension unviable, and if you can get your employer to contribute, you'll be lucky. There simply isn't going to be the tax base to support the present private/public defined-benefit pension . (See: Detroit.) Not being a doomer, it's just math. I would think it's prudent for individuals to take a little more of a stake in their own financial affairs rather than counting on a pension. It's harder to see that when you're coasting along living the Canadian Dream, just making ends meet.

As far as the "detached and friendless" bit, are you sure you aren't just projecting your own fears? The vast majority of expats I meet, are interesting, engaging people. Kind of makes sense, most wallflower types wouldn't dare to try something outside of the box, and most expat jobs have pretty high minimum standards for selection. So expat populations tend to be dominated by bright, friendly, gregarious, Type A's - not really the ones you need to worry about being without friends! (Some of them are even a bit obnoxious! lol) And when I visit Canada, I see a society that largely has isolated themselves from each other with social media and busyness anyway. Which isn't to say, that it isn't the same in Dubai, but the point is you have to work hard at relationships these days no matter where you are.

Anyway, I wouldn't "get it" either if I wasn't actually doing it. Expat life simply isn't explainable, you have to live it to understand. The main thing is to find a way to be happy wherever you are. (Whoa that was deep! lol)

[Joe Blow Schmo]

I don't get why guys are so hot to charge over to the Middle East just to earn enough money to retire in Canada. Burn yourself out in he Desert for 20 odd years just to come home worn out, detatched and friendless with money in your pocket??? What if your family doesn't want to join you back here? Are you going to travel 6000 miles to visit your Grandchildren?
Do we really need that gas guzzling Hummer, the condo at Whistler, or a lifetime membership at the Point Grey Golf Club when we're 55 years old? Think of the family relationships and friends you'll be walking away from here in Canada in the name of Cash. Five figures in your pocket every month still won't be enough........you'll want more. Give me a modest paying job in the best country in the world, with a modest pension any day. Just my opinion......

Maybe I just don't get it.......

DP.

Like the others, I went overseas, initially only planning to do it short term. An opportunity arose and it seemed like it might be fun for a couple of years. I'm well into my 2nd decade as an expat now. The money wasn't even that good initially. The first job I had paid me slightly less in gross salary than I had been making at my previous job in Canada. Although as soon as I wasn't paying Canadian tax anymore I quickly figured out that I was taking home a lot more.

My life in Canada was never as good as it is now. I've seen and done more than I could ever have imagined before I came (fortunately my wife isn't paying attention so I didn't get kicked). Certainly having more money helps with that. I can afford to do a whole lot more things and travel to a whole lot more places (most of which are reasonably short flights away). While money was never the reason for coming here initially it is certainly a huge bonus. Not having to worry about money prevents a lot of stress. Short of buying a new house, I don't really need to worry about how I'm going to pay for something. If my car implodes, I can go buy another one. That really is a nice position to be in. That being said, I don't go spend crazy. I save/invest a lot of money. I drive a 10 year old car. I have no desire for a Hummer or a condo in Whistler (I'll take one in Hokkaido though please).

I get back to Canada as often as I want and I also spent plenty of time traveling around other places. There's a far greater variety of destinations in this part of the world than there is back home. My parents do travel 6000 miles to see their grandchildren on a regular basis. They usually combine their trips with side trips to other locations in Asia. Me living here also gives them the opportunity to travel to places they would otherwise not get to go.

I had certainly always planned on retiring in Canada, however the longer I'm here, the more I think about retiring elsewhere. It won't be where I'm currently living, but there are plenty of other attractive options.

[RB211]

...

Maybe I just don't get it.......

DP.

No, actually because you made assumptions and applied them to anyone that has gone overseas, you are ignorant.

There are many reasons folks go overseas but money is not, probably for most, at the top of the list. Things like adventure, experience, goal fulfillment, job security and just having a decent job probably come before 'money'. After that, money is a nice bonus

Family is often the reason one stays overseas, they enjoy it and aren't keen to leave. I know my family enjoys our experience and are not in a hurry to end it any time soon. My parents really enjoy their visits.

We still have good relationships with friends back home. They enjoy visiting and having a place to crash when traveling in the region. As well, we have made many new friends since being here.

The reasons for embarking overseas are as varied as the folks that take the plunge. So maybe your narrow and preconceived thoughts as to 'why' one ventures outside Canada require some evaluation.

[dukepoint]

My apologies .......sorry if I've struck a nerve.......

Great responses by the way.........makes more sense.



Cheers, DP.

[Jack Klumpus]

Dukepoint,

Unlike some other posters, I left a healthy left seat 705 gig, based in Toronto, on my own will, to try a new adventure, challenge, call it what you will.

In a nutshell, you remember these games they did at supermarkets, where a lucky winner will get a minute to throw anything they can in the shopping cart before time runs out.

This is how I see my time here. It's limited, and I'm trying to throw as much in my cart as I can. Be it experience on new types, meeting new people from different parts of the world, flying to new cities all over the world, making money, etc.

All I can say is, enjoy what you have, and it seems that you do. It's clear that you have a great appreciation for Canada, as it is one of the best countries out there (in my opinion).

Ciao