I haven't dealt with wrongful dismissal, but I myself have gone to them for advice/clarification (found them surprisingly helpfull), and also know of a group of employees who were successful in getting back unpaid vacation pay with the agency's help.. . wrote:Has anyone in aviation ever been helped in a wrongful dismissal case by the above government agency?
Saying no.
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
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The Weasel
- Rank 3
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:53 pm
Re: Saying no.
Re: Saying no.
Back in 2004 I was dismissed from a company with no notice - they claimed it was a layoff and refused to pay me severance pay, when the reality was they dismissed me because I didn't want to move to another base and pay 10k to go Captain on the MU-2. I was expecting to get fired after that, but I wasn't expecting a no-notice, no-severance pretend layoff. Once I told the company I had contacted the HRSDC, they paid me my few outstanding bucks and we parted ways. It wasn't much, but it was the difference between making rent and not making rent that month, and I was pretty grateful to the Feds for helping me out.. . wrote:Has anyone in aviation ever been helped in a wrongful dismissal case by the above government agency?
Re: Saying no.
I remember that. Those emails that you posted had me falling off my chair.Sulako wrote:Back in 2004 I was dismissed from a company with no notice - they claimed it was a layoff and refused to pay me severance pay, when the reality was they dismissed me because I didn't want to move to another base and pay 10k to go Captain on the MU-2. I was expecting to get fired after that, but I wasn't expecting a no-notice, no-severance pretend layoff. Once I told the company I had contacted the HRSDC, they paid me my few outstanding bucks and we parted ways. It wasn't much, but it was the difference between making rent and not making rent that month, and I was pretty grateful to the Feds for helping me out.. . wrote:Has anyone in aviation ever been helped in a wrongful dismissal case by the above government agency?
Glad to see you're doing well now!
Re: Saying no.
Thanks for the notes of support and constructive questions/criticisms from my last post. I would have liked to have responded in a timely fashion, but was warned of a possible libel suit if I continued. I was impressed and thankful AvCanada kept open this thread as once before it was pulled when this all started coming to a head a few years ago. Well I now have a libel suit coming anyways, from the company for my comments on this thread, which comments were only meant to enhance safety in the aviation industry. My former employer has threatened me with a libel lawsuit, unless I apologize on this forum for what they say to be untrue statements. But then I would be telling a lie!
The Canadian Human Rights Commission has ruled that the matter is “not in the public interest” to be pursued, but that I should have accepted the company offer of $20,000 for pain and suffering and $10,000 for legal fees, and walk away from all other claims against the company. I disagree and do think that this matter is in the public interest under aviation safety, and needs to be reviewed! I am willing to go through all the pain and humiliation etc, to have this case moved forward through the courts, and invite you (the aviation public) to learn from my mistakes and the company’s mistakes during this process.
I have also invited the CBC News, in light of its recent investigations into the CAR’s 703 SMS and Transport Canada joke, to follow this story as it unfolds. I have the truth and the documentation to prove it (did I tell you I was the only approved SMS Officer of the Company trying to implement this bullshit – when ‘root cause analysis’ was most often the mismanagement of the Accountable Executive)! Ooops, I forgot! That was delegated to me too!
In regards to wisdom for the young fellas out there in this industry, the advise from Mig29 is the best; “It is pretty disappointing when you go through all of these Gov't agencies for help, and they just turned their backs or pretend they didn't see anything. Sometimes I wonder if it's better in certain cases just to resign and walkway with no headaches and a clean reputation, with hopes of gaining a better job down the road, then to put up a fight with these morons?”
Very true and good advise under that scenario! In my case however, after a workplace “accident” and diagnosis of recurrent PTSD (originally caused by a 1981 airplane crash – mechanical failure) I approached the company H&S Rep for help but instead my reputation was ruined when this request for help was used against me to advance his career or personal agenda.
My health continued to deteriorate as I was worked (on call) 24/7 as chief pilot, line pilot, and delegated operations manager, general manager, PRM, (duties of two companies), a Director of a third company, sales manager, plus any secretarial duties not completed by the owners wife. I first complained to Transport Canada in 2009 after an aviation accident, but my concerns were ignored and in fact TSB published wrong data concerning the accident details, which has only recently has been correctly amended. I requested my file from Transport Canada enforcement which of some 160 pages in length I received only 25 pages mostly blacked out and of no use (other than Transport Canada’s admission of responsibility). This error in part allowed my employer to believe there had been no accident as which story was being pushed by the H&S Rep, which misinformation the employer passed on to WSIB which has since denied my claim. After no accommodations were forth coming from the Employer as my health continued to deteriorate, I tried to resign in 2009 from the CP’s position, but was promised accommodation again by the employer only to have it denied once again two months later.
I requested an internal investigation by the employer to resolve the issues but the company instead formed a secret committee to watch and report any wrong doing on my part while paying me a $20,000 bonus that year (to shut up?). I approached the Labour Board in June 2010 with my many concerns including harassment and threats of violence in the workplace by that time. Despite cooperating fully with a supposed independent Health and Safety Officer approved through the Federal Government (but paid by the employer being investigated???) I was never given a copy of the report or any findings (despite the admission that there was harassment and violence in the workplace). My wrongful dismissal charge has been totally ignored pending the CHRC findings (which they have thus far refused to investigate because again, they say is not in the public interest).
My pilot’s license was pulled in August 2010 pending further medical examination but the company would still not accommodate, forcing me to resign from the Chief Pilot’s position as the License is a necessary ingredient to hold that job. The employer then told the authorities that I had resigned employment totally, and would have been dismissed “with just cause,” with absolutely no evidence against me.
The CHRC has now moved to a higher level of court in Toronto to determine if this case is in the public interest to proceed. For me to proceed will cost an additional several thousand dollars on top of the tens of thousands already spent, forcing me to re-mortgage our home to the hilt if I am to proceed through the courts. I will proceed … despite having much to potentially loose.
Safe flying folks.
Ps. SMS is great for large companies as it provides just another level of safety and is in their advantage to utilize that additional safety layer. However, as has been documented by the CBC, SMS for small carriers with a tight budget and capitalist for a boss with no Transport Canada responsibility is many disasters waiting to happen across Canada as is starting to be evident (or has this year been just bad luck in this industry?). Speaking of that, have you ever wondered how Transport Canada can allow non-aviation licensed people, not qualified in any way but being a wannabe capitalist (which is what any business owner is), to be the operations manager’s or accountable executive of an aviation company with the power to over rule those with the licenses and the experience?
The Canadian Human Rights Commission has ruled that the matter is “not in the public interest” to be pursued, but that I should have accepted the company offer of $20,000 for pain and suffering and $10,000 for legal fees, and walk away from all other claims against the company. I disagree and do think that this matter is in the public interest under aviation safety, and needs to be reviewed! I am willing to go through all the pain and humiliation etc, to have this case moved forward through the courts, and invite you (the aviation public) to learn from my mistakes and the company’s mistakes during this process.
I have also invited the CBC News, in light of its recent investigations into the CAR’s 703 SMS and Transport Canada joke, to follow this story as it unfolds. I have the truth and the documentation to prove it (did I tell you I was the only approved SMS Officer of the Company trying to implement this bullshit – when ‘root cause analysis’ was most often the mismanagement of the Accountable Executive)! Ooops, I forgot! That was delegated to me too!
In regards to wisdom for the young fellas out there in this industry, the advise from Mig29 is the best; “It is pretty disappointing when you go through all of these Gov't agencies for help, and they just turned their backs or pretend they didn't see anything. Sometimes I wonder if it's better in certain cases just to resign and walkway with no headaches and a clean reputation, with hopes of gaining a better job down the road, then to put up a fight with these morons?”
Very true and good advise under that scenario! In my case however, after a workplace “accident” and diagnosis of recurrent PTSD (originally caused by a 1981 airplane crash – mechanical failure) I approached the company H&S Rep for help but instead my reputation was ruined when this request for help was used against me to advance his career or personal agenda.
My health continued to deteriorate as I was worked (on call) 24/7 as chief pilot, line pilot, and delegated operations manager, general manager, PRM, (duties of two companies), a Director of a third company, sales manager, plus any secretarial duties not completed by the owners wife. I first complained to Transport Canada in 2009 after an aviation accident, but my concerns were ignored and in fact TSB published wrong data concerning the accident details, which has only recently has been correctly amended. I requested my file from Transport Canada enforcement which of some 160 pages in length I received only 25 pages mostly blacked out and of no use (other than Transport Canada’s admission of responsibility). This error in part allowed my employer to believe there had been no accident as which story was being pushed by the H&S Rep, which misinformation the employer passed on to WSIB which has since denied my claim. After no accommodations were forth coming from the Employer as my health continued to deteriorate, I tried to resign in 2009 from the CP’s position, but was promised accommodation again by the employer only to have it denied once again two months later.
I requested an internal investigation by the employer to resolve the issues but the company instead formed a secret committee to watch and report any wrong doing on my part while paying me a $20,000 bonus that year (to shut up?). I approached the Labour Board in June 2010 with my many concerns including harassment and threats of violence in the workplace by that time. Despite cooperating fully with a supposed independent Health and Safety Officer approved through the Federal Government (but paid by the employer being investigated???) I was never given a copy of the report or any findings (despite the admission that there was harassment and violence in the workplace). My wrongful dismissal charge has been totally ignored pending the CHRC findings (which they have thus far refused to investigate because again, they say is not in the public interest).
My pilot’s license was pulled in August 2010 pending further medical examination but the company would still not accommodate, forcing me to resign from the Chief Pilot’s position as the License is a necessary ingredient to hold that job. The employer then told the authorities that I had resigned employment totally, and would have been dismissed “with just cause,” with absolutely no evidence against me.
The CHRC has now moved to a higher level of court in Toronto to determine if this case is in the public interest to proceed. For me to proceed will cost an additional several thousand dollars on top of the tens of thousands already spent, forcing me to re-mortgage our home to the hilt if I am to proceed through the courts. I will proceed … despite having much to potentially loose.
Safe flying folks.
Ps. SMS is great for large companies as it provides just another level of safety and is in their advantage to utilize that additional safety layer. However, as has been documented by the CBC, SMS for small carriers with a tight budget and capitalist for a boss with no Transport Canada responsibility is many disasters waiting to happen across Canada as is starting to be evident (or has this year been just bad luck in this industry?). Speaking of that, have you ever wondered how Transport Canada can allow non-aviation licensed people, not qualified in any way but being a wannabe capitalist (which is what any business owner is), to be the operations manager’s or accountable executive of an aviation company with the power to over rule those with the licenses and the experience?
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flyinthebug
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1689
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:36 am
- Location: CYPA
Re: Saying no.
Nephilim I am sincerely sorry to hear how things have worked out for you. Keep the faith!!
As for me personally...I was fired twice in my career for saying no. I will omit company names to observe the integrity of this forum and its owner.
1st time was on the coast. The fog had set in at YVR harbour and it was 50' and 1/4sm vis. It was SKC in Nanaimo harbour. The CP walks up to me and tells me he has 6 pax ready to go. I said where and when? He said now and Nanaimo. I said no way until the fog burns off. He stares me down for about 10 secs, smiles, then walks back into the pilot lounge and asks who is "available" to do an immediate flight to Nanaimo. I was not shocked when 2 pilots put up their hands (of the 4 present at the time). One of those cowboys took that flight. Im very sad to say he is no longer with us. My CP came back to me and told me if I was ever going to succeed on the coast, I better grow some balls...then told me I was finished and take a sked back to the island. They owed me 100s of hours of OT and all it took to get paid was the threat of going to the labour board. All ended well there.
2nd time was refusing a flight for wx again. North coast this time..similiar situation but far more extensive (fog) and pax waiting on the dock to get up to the head of Knights Inlet. Owner was also the Ops Mgr and again I was threatened to take the flight or else. I went with "or else" and took my walking papers.
To be honest, the 2nd operator did try to affect my career in a negative way as I made the mistake of keeping them on my CV. When a large carrier called them for a reference, he buried me. Called me so many liable things it was overwhelming. His reference for me was infact so bad, that even the person from HR at the large carrier said "all your other references were great, and this man seemed so personally enraged at you that we have decided to ignore his reference completely. In other words, his hate for me was so evident, that even the HR lady picked up on it...and ultimately his words never hurt my career one tiny bit.
Looking back I am GLAD I said no to those 2 ops and feel I may well be alive because of it. I went on to be a CP & Ops Mgr myself so saying no didnt hurt me whatsoever. It actually made me a better manager. When someone said no, I took a good look at the reason why before id make any "changes" to the Captain`s decision.
It is much easier to find a new job then to leave your friends and family behind, devastated and sad because you were too scared to say no. The young pilots need to learn this and stick to your own personal boundries. If your working for an op that pushes you to fly in any illegal conditions, it is YOUR responsibility to a) walk away and b) report the op.
I`ve enjoyed many years and several thousand hours as a CPL and love this industry. I just dont love how some of the 703s are still getting away with pushing pilots. As has been said, we are seeing the results in the many tragic accidents these past few yrs. Oddly, since the inception of SMS...Wake up TC cause SMS is NOT working at the 703 level!
As for me personally...I was fired twice in my career for saying no. I will omit company names to observe the integrity of this forum and its owner.
1st time was on the coast. The fog had set in at YVR harbour and it was 50' and 1/4sm vis. It was SKC in Nanaimo harbour. The CP walks up to me and tells me he has 6 pax ready to go. I said where and when? He said now and Nanaimo. I said no way until the fog burns off. He stares me down for about 10 secs, smiles, then walks back into the pilot lounge and asks who is "available" to do an immediate flight to Nanaimo. I was not shocked when 2 pilots put up their hands (of the 4 present at the time). One of those cowboys took that flight. Im very sad to say he is no longer with us. My CP came back to me and told me if I was ever going to succeed on the coast, I better grow some balls...then told me I was finished and take a sked back to the island. They owed me 100s of hours of OT and all it took to get paid was the threat of going to the labour board. All ended well there.
2nd time was refusing a flight for wx again. North coast this time..similiar situation but far more extensive (fog) and pax waiting on the dock to get up to the head of Knights Inlet. Owner was also the Ops Mgr and again I was threatened to take the flight or else. I went with "or else" and took my walking papers.
To be honest, the 2nd operator did try to affect my career in a negative way as I made the mistake of keeping them on my CV. When a large carrier called them for a reference, he buried me. Called me so many liable things it was overwhelming. His reference for me was infact so bad, that even the person from HR at the large carrier said "all your other references were great, and this man seemed so personally enraged at you that we have decided to ignore his reference completely. In other words, his hate for me was so evident, that even the HR lady picked up on it...and ultimately his words never hurt my career one tiny bit.
Looking back I am GLAD I said no to those 2 ops and feel I may well be alive because of it. I went on to be a CP & Ops Mgr myself so saying no didnt hurt me whatsoever. It actually made me a better manager. When someone said no, I took a good look at the reason why before id make any "changes" to the Captain`s decision.
It is much easier to find a new job then to leave your friends and family behind, devastated and sad because you were too scared to say no. The young pilots need to learn this and stick to your own personal boundries. If your working for an op that pushes you to fly in any illegal conditions, it is YOUR responsibility to a) walk away and b) report the op.
I`ve enjoyed many years and several thousand hours as a CPL and love this industry. I just dont love how some of the 703s are still getting away with pushing pilots. As has been said, we are seeing the results in the many tragic accidents these past few yrs. Oddly, since the inception of SMS...Wake up TC cause SMS is NOT working at the 703 level!
