Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parliament

[Rockie]

Air Canada pilots are going to have the facts of life explained to them and it won't be by the union. Most of them still think the BFOR issue was settled once and for all in ACPA's favour, or if mandatory retirement does disappear they can place some other limits on pay/position based on age.

The lack of knowledge and understanding is dismal.

[vic777]

Would it make sense then for ACPA to include wording in your upcoming contract to address the situation? No one above age 60 can occupy the left seat of any AC aircraft? Would that address it from the other direction?

Wouldn't make any sense whipline, that concept is illegal. Get with the program.

[vic777]

Okay... must get going now and do my 5 legs for the day for just under $40,000 a year. I, and many of my colleagues, can look forward to this for a while. Thank you... and thank you... for upholding all these human rights.... and looking out for our pilot group as a whole.

It's what ACPA negotiated isn't it? The Company thinks you will do it for less. Of course ACPA could have leveraged the windfall gains from FlyPast60 and got you something but, the ACPA elite was thinking of themselves first.

[4hrstovegas]

I will not make Wide Body Captian with Air Canada because of my age. Will you?

Not anymore, thanks to the greed of some people already sitting there... all of whom got a lift up from their less self-centred predecessors. If even one new hire gets furloughed (on top of being inevitably held down on the ladder), these people should rot in hell.

How do you people sleep at night? I'm sure you'll walk the corridors with your heads high... make sure you do, so you can see the faces of the people you've trampled on. Yes, it will be disgust you see in your coworkers' eyes.

[Rockie]

You guys are so busy hating the senior pilots you're not even aware of what's going on around you. Here are the facts whether you like them or not:

1. Age discrimination is against the law.

2. Mandatory retirement based on normal age of retirement will within a few weeks be against the law.

3. Continuing to pursue age related working conditions in order to limit those over 60, 50, or 40 (pick an age) is age discriminatory and therefore against the law.

4. Air Canada failed to achieve a BFOR of age 60, and if you give it a second's thought you would understand why.

Hate the senior pilots all you want, but sooner or later you will all have to OBEY THE LAW. A child could not only understand this very, very simple concept better than our pilot group can, but they would be a lot more mature about it too.

[yycflyguy]

You guys are so busy hating the senior pilots you're not even aware of what's going on around you. Here are the facts whether you like them or not:

1. Age discrimination is against the law.

2. Mandatory retirement based on normal age of retirement will within a few weeks be against the law.

3. Continuing to pursue age related working conditions in order to limit those over 60, 50, or 40 (pick an age) is age discriminatory and therefore against the law.

4. Air Canada failed to achieve a BFOR of age 60, and if you give it a second's thought you would understand why.

Hate the senior pilots all you want, but sooner or later you will all have to OBEY THE LAW. A child could not only understand this very, very simple concept better than our pilot group can, but they would be a lot more mature about it too.

Rockie,

At some point the rights of the whole has to be weighed vs the ageism. At some point the argument of upholding the rights of a few loses value when the group as a whole suffers.

It is not as clear cut as you make it out to be.

You will be eating and drinking by yourself. The flights to FRA will be very quiet. You may get phone calls in the middle of the night and probably ride the crew cab by yourself. Is that discrimination based on age? No, its avoiding assholes; legislate that.

[Rockie]

At some point the rights of the whole has to be weighed vs the ageism. At some point the argument of upholding the rights of a few loses value when the group as a whole suffers.

It is not as clear cut as you make it out to be.

Please enlighten me then.

Where is our legal "right" to upward seniority movement guaranteed, and where in Canadian law does it supercede individual human rights?

BTW every pilot including you is protected from age discrimination, not just a few...everybody. You just choose to ignore that fact.

[4hrstovegas]

... and all of you can keep pretending that you gave a sh!t about "human rights" before you could profit from this. Who do you think you're fooling? You took from your seniors, and now your robbing your juniors. Calling any of this anything other than pure, selfish greed is the only hyprocrisy here. Your legacy will taking by 60 what will now take us 5 more years to achieve. You haven't helped anybody but yourselves, not matter how many times you tell yourselves otherwise. That's a fact YOU choose to ignore.

[Rockie]

... and all of you can keep pretending that you gave a sh!t about "human rights" before you could profit from this. Who do you think you're fooling? You took from your seniors, and now your robbing your juniors. Calling any of this anything other than pure, selfish greed is the only hyprocrisy here. Your legacy will taking by 60 what will now take us 5 more years to achieve. You haven't helped anybody but yourselves, not matter how many times you tell yourselves otherwise. That's a fact YOU choose to ignore.

There's that greed word again. I'm not close to retirement and I don't harbour any ill will toward pilots senior to me who wish to work beyond 60 (and you would be very surprised at how many of them there are) nor do I think they owe me anything.

What's your excuse?

[whipline]

Obviously I poked a hornets nest.

Mac I see you edited your post to avoid my response. You can also relax on the cog test, I don't work at AC and never will. The pension would be to small. (joke)

Instead of working longer wouldn't it make more sense to attempt to get max pension sooner? Make max pension based on years of service instead of your best 5yrs?

If this fly past 60 isn't for greed why would you have a problem going to the right seat? Your still working. Your sharing your experience with the new hires. Your helping the company with certain scheduling issues. What's the problem?

I think it's pretty hard to prove the fly past 60 argument when the playing field has been cleary defined for decades.

[Understated]

It looks like I may have been a little presumptuous when I suggested that the sense of desperation was flowing into a sense of despondency. We haven't seen this level of animosity since just after the Tribunal Charter decision in favour of Vilven was released in August, 2009.

Just curious. Are those who are so against abolishing mandatory retirement blaming the Fly Past 60 crowd for what the government has decided to do, namely repeal the mandatory retirement exemption? That would seem to me to be not only misdirected but would give them much more credit than they actually deserve, given that the federal jurisdiction was simply the last in all of the fourteen Provinces, Territories and dominion to repeal the exemption. What does what the federal government is doing have to do with Air Canada pilots? Nothing, most likley. It is a cultural change whose time had obviously come.

So, then, why is everyone so pee'd off at these pilots? Because they simply happened to be a little ahead of the curve in attempting to move the airline and union in a direction that they were going to be forced to go anyway?

[4hrstovegas]

My excuse? Simple. I want by 60 what it will now take me to 65 to earn, because I want a LIFE (I actually like my family, and they like me). I want to hear at least ONE of these selfish pr!<ks say, "we won't let this cost a single junior pilot their job." And I'd LOVE to stop hearing this "greater good" bull, because all this is going to do is to deny everybody in their footsteps the right to the same career path to 60 that they have enjoyed. I have a lot of respect for our senior pilot's experience, too. But I have no respect for those that plan on hanging around to work 9 days a month for a top-end salary pretending that they're representing some greater cause.

[Rockie]

I want by 60 what it will now take me to 65 to earn, because I want a LIFE (I actually like my family, and they like me)

Sounds awfully self-serving don't you think? You're also making some rather pessimistic assumptions that aren't supported by the expert evidence given at the various hearings. Plus what makes you think this will deprive you and your family of a life?

I want to hear at least ONE of these selfish pr!<ks say, "we won't let this cost a single junior pilot their job."

There are no guarantees in life so even if somebody told you that it wouldn't mean anything, and you're likely bright enough to know that or you wouldn't be flying airplanes.

because all this is going to do is to deny everybody in their footsteps the right to the same career path to 60 that they have enjoyed.

People keep talking about this "right" as if it actually exists. Where is it?

But I have no respect for those that plan on hanging around to work 9 days a month for a top-end salary pretending that they're representing some greater cause.

This is something the pilots can actually do something about once they pull their heads out of their asses. Instead of STILL fighting this utterly useless, wasteful and divisive battle to stop what can't be stopped, Air Canada pilots are going to have to change their working condition to accommodate it if they think it's necessary. Bear in mind that doesn't mean age discrimination by alternate means like some are stupidly suggesting because that will go absolutely nowhere. It means waiting to see what actual impact the end of mandatory retirement has and modifying the contract accordingly and intelligently to accommodate the change.

But here's what won't work...whining about how unfair it is when you really have no clue because you can't see past the next equipment bid.

[4hrstovegas]

Sounds awfully self-serving don't you think? You're also making some rather pessimistic assumptions that aren't supported by the expert evidence given at the various hearings. Plus what makes you think this will deprive you and your family of a life?

What expert evidence? What expert has said that this won't affect future payroll decisions, given the (as you say) large number of pilots this will allow to linger? And by life, I mean that time spent on Earth not working to afford being on Earth.

There are no guarantees in life so even if somebody told you that it wouldn't mean anything

There are no guarantees, so it's pointless to show at least the SEMBLANCE of integrity?? Now, that's a comment on this group if there ever was one.

People keep talking about this "right" as if it actually exists. Where is it?

You seem to want everything spelled out... I can't believe I'm humouring this childishness. OK, substitute "right" for "opportunity".

Air Canada pilots are going to have to change their working condition to accommodate it if they think it's necessary.

LOL, this is the most laughable point to me. I'm SURE the senior ranks would help vote to change the contract so that they work more for less. That's clearly the sort of propensity that's been displayed by this self-serving movement. And please, just stop using the temporally convenient reference to "law" and "rights" to describe gluttony. It makes me want to vomit.

whining about how unfair it is

The irony is too thick. Pot, kettle, black, you know how it goes.

[Rockie]

What expert evidence? What expert has said that this won't affect future payroll decisions,

I didn't say an expert said this won't effect future payroll decisions, I said expert testimony indicates it won't be near as bad as you and many including the union say it will. And now I know you haven't even bothered to read any of the rulings. Start with Vilven and Kelly and you'll see what I mean.

There are no guarantees, so it's pointless to show at least the SEMBLANCE of integrity??

You think showing integrity is promising you something they can't guarantee? That's what politicians do.

You seem to want everything spelled out... I can't believe I'm humouring this childishness. OK, substitute "right" for "opportunity".

Ok, opportunity is a much better word. Much different than "right" which is mistakingly used all the time. It's very important to make that distinction because when we talk about "rights" in this issue the only one that actually exists is the right to not be discriminated against. You might think that distinction is childish but the government, CHRT, CHRC and Federal Courts don't.

LOL, this is the most laughable point to me. I'm SURE the senior ranks would help vote to change the contract so that they work more for less. That's clearly the sort of propensity that's been displayed by this self-serving movement

Are you saying you can't get enough people to support changing the contract to accommodate the end of mandatory retirement to make it more equitable?

The irony is too thick. Pot, kettle, black, you know how it goes.

I will be as adversely effected by this change as you. Perhaps more so. I am not whining about it. If you were advocating proactive initiatives to deal realistically with this change that's been inevitable for years instead of pointlessly fighting it and bitching about how unfair it is then we might have something in common. As it is we don't.

[Morry Bund]

4hrs, yycguy, DD and others who have commented here re the impending age restriction change:

Please explain to me why you need to attack these individuals. After five years, they havent' kept one single pilot re-employed. They lost two Tribunal decisions this summer, and there is nothing certain about their prospects of getting any other pilots back in front of you on the seniority list.

Everything was fairly quiet here for the past six months, until the GOVERNMENT did what it has been attempting to do since the first Bill was introduced in 1992 to repeal the mandatory retirement exemption. Now, because the government tells everyone that the world isn't flat, you feel that you must scapegoat your fellow pilots who are on record as supporting what the government has been planning to do for almost two decades?

What have you done to prepare yourself and your union for the changes that are coming at you now? Have you suggested ways of working with the changes to minimize the adverse impact? Have you supported any efforts within your union to manage the changes? Or have you simply sat and waited until the lights went out so that you could curse the dark?

[vic777]

What have you done to prepare yourself and your union for the changes that are coming at you now? ......... Or have you simply sat and waited until the lights went out so that you could curse the dark?

We will soon see.

[massey308]

rockie.this is far from over...there are many appeals left. nothing is going to change until the
BFOR issue is resolved, which will be handed down by the supreme court. lots of time left for us dedicated ACPA memebers to defend what the membership wants.

Attempting to 'out' other users is against forum rules. That's a strike. Sulako

[Rockie]

nothing is going to change until the BFOR issue is resolved,

Perhaps you haven't read the last couple of pages. The government is indeed finally changing something.

lots of time left for us dedicated ACPA memebers to defend what the membership wants.

What gives you the moral right to call yourself a dedicated ACPA member and not the people advocating change? Is ACPA a certified bargaining unit legally obligated to represent all Air Canada pilots, or is it a juvenile gang who locks out anybody who isn't cool enough?

[massey308]

moral change? give me a break. you have advanced in your profession because of the same rule you seek to destroy. dont talk to me about morals. We have had this vote before and the vast majority dont want fly past 60. Again this is a long way off and lets face it Ray and his gang needed something to exploit to give his gang a sense of hope after a series of defeats. Long way off.

[Rockie]

Like many Air Canada pilots you simply refuse to accept the fact mandatory retirement is age discriminatory despite the obvious events that are occurring right now. Even after being forced to comply with the law Air Canada pilots will try and find some other way to limit working conditions based on age because you just cannot get it into your thick neanderthal skulls that IT IS ILLEGAL.

Furthermore you have the gall to say those of us who want ACPA to represent all members in accordance with that law as they are required to do, and effect LEGAL change to the working conditions to make them more equitable in consequence of these changes, are immoral.

I would tell you exactly what to do with your opinion sir, but I wish to remain on this forum as it one of the the only sources of accurate information regarding this issue.

[Raymond Hall]

Again this is a long way off and lets face it Ray and his gang needed something to exploit to give his gang a sense of hope after a series of defeats. Long way off.

Massey: For the last 18 months or so my posts here have been strictly factual, rather than argumentative. Without changing track, then, let me point out a couple of facts in response to your post.

First, "Rockie" is not a member of the Fly Past 60 group and never has been. He has stated on this Forum several times that he was hired well after the merger, and is thus very, very junior. More than that, we met on one occasion, by coincidence, at an airport when I was commuting to work, where he introduced himself to me, and I have talked with him in e-mails and on the telephone very occasionally since then. He is not the person who you suggest that he is, and it is wholly unfair of you to attribute his posts to any other person.

Second, as Rockie has pointed out to you, you must have missed the beginning of this thread because posts above clearly indicate the legislative record that will undoubtedly be complete before the end of this session of Parliament, i.e. in less than four weeks now, leading to the repeal of the mandatory retirement exemption, with the repeal coming into force one year to the day after Bill C-13 receives Royal Assent. In other words, next December at the latest. The change is not a long way off any longer, and ironically, it has little or nothing to do with anything that the Fly Past 60 group has done to speed it up, regardless of the now millions of dollars that ACPA, Air Canada and the Coalition have spent litigating the issue since 2006.

Finally, with reference to my attempt to “exploit” something, may I remind you that since I first became involved in this issue in 2006 I have continually and consistently stated that the change is coming, that the pilots should attempt to accommodate the change to their advantage (it is a little late for that now) and that the accommodation should be made with the full participation of all of the members of the bargaining unit. We are not your enemy, and there has never been any attempt to exploit anything.

Those are the facts, sir.

[massey308]

Ray, you are no closer to returning to the line than you were when this started. the BFOR is still being sent back to the divisional courts and this bill will change nothing. The fact that you waited till 2006 to bring this to our attention, still signals the self serving attitude you and the fly past 60 have displayed. You advanced as those ahead of you retired. Had they never left at 60 you would not have had the career that you did. Now you want to change the rules to benefit you. Its all about you. As for your airport hook ups im glad youve found a way to get your information and propaganda out. My guess, since were still in divisional courts.......5 years before there is any answer to this mess.

[Les Lavoie]

Obviously I poked a hornets nest.

Mac I see you edited your post to avoid my response. You can also relax on the cog test, I don't work at AC and never will. The pension would be to small. (joke)

Instead of working longer wouldn't it make more sense to attempt to get max pension sooner? Make max pension based on years of service instead of your best 5yrs?

If this fly past 60 isn't for greed why would you have a problem going to the right seat? Your still working. Your sharing your experience with the new hires. Your helping the company with certain scheduling issues. What's the problem?



I think it's pretty hard to prove the fly past 60 argument when the playing field has been cleary defined for decades.

Give me a week or so and I will try to enlighten you as you seem to be very misinformed.

[Les Lavoie]

And just who is this ACPA that you want to screw so bad? This big bad union that deceives everyone and has ruined your livliehood and denies your rights to come back and fly? Well, its us. We are ACPA, every line pilot now flying. Your former colleagues. You hate ACPA then you hate us. You want to screw ACPA then you want to screw us. Should make for great CRM!

And what about this big bad corporation Air Canada? You want to show them. Get even! Bring them to their knees too! That's the corp that provides the airplanes and great career you somewhat enjoyed.

What kind of atmosphere do you think you will come back to? Snap your fingers and everything will be just like 20 years ago? Got news for you: some of you arrogant pricks were hard enough to work with on the 400 and 340, do you think we'll just sit back, bow down and welcome you back?

Hell no! You will be eating and drinking by yourself. The flights to FRA will be very quiet. You may get phone calls in the middle of the night and probably ride the crew cab by yourself. Is that discrimination based on age? No, its avoiding assholes; legislate that.

You could have gone about this quietly with dignity and civility but for years now you threaten and mock us. You demean the very union that negotiated great contracts that you enjoyed at the top of the heap. You slander the company that provided you a great career and great pension and provides you passes all over the world. Yet you want to come back? Consider a little humility, a little civility and stop shaming yourselves and parents.

Oh yeah; and don't hold your breath. It ain't over.

Mr. Drohan, I had respect for what you wrote but your recent postings are using up that good will faster than the runway left in front on an all up weight take off on a very hot day. How about toning down your feelings and concentrating on the facts and solutions for all.