Small Aircraft Missing near YOW

[Colonel Sanders]

What I don't understand is why they even tried to do an approach
into Carp, which only has non-precision approaches, and needs a
ceiling of over 500 AGL for either the VOR A or VOR/DME B.

Maybe Carp has a groovy GPS approach to rwy 10 with super-low
mins now? I used to teach IFR out of Carp years ago, and you
needed 500 to get back in, otherwise you had to divert to Ottawa
for the ILS.

Someone posted here that the last METAR out of Ottawa was
overcast 100, which is below cat 1 ILS minima, which is all there
is at Ottawa (and in a Cardinal).

I don't know why, given that ATIS, that they didn't immediately
get a vector to the ILS 7 instead of driving around Carp for a while
in cloud in forecast moderate icing.

With overcast 100, that's a pretty serious ILS, and you'd better
think about where else you're going to go if that doesn't work.

I know I will be crapped upon from a great height by the keyboard
jockeys here for suggesting it, but if I'm in a single Cessna with
a load of ice, I'm not going around on the ILS - I'm landing out of
it, regardless of the ceiling or vis. Keep the needles centered - the
GS will start to wiggle wildly after a while, just ignore it and
continue the rate of descent - and wait for touchdown.

I would rather be alive, with another registered letter from Transport
in my inbox, than be dead with perfect paperwork.

[pelmet]

Carp probably doesn't enter into the equation as customs is ay CYOW.

['CauseTheCaravanCan]

This is too bad. Whatever the truth is, if they'd have made it to the airport, they'd have kissed the ground I'm sure. And swore to never make that mistake again.
Spending your final moments in sheer terror should be reserved for the evil people of the world, not the good guys.

RIP.

[North Shore]

Sanders, what you are saying makes sense, but you have a strong family background in aviation, and a shed-load of experience to draw upon. IF these guys had a 1000 hours between them, I'd be surprised. We'll never really know what transpired in the plane, but you could easily imagine a poor initial decision to go, followed by rising levels of stress/panic and decreasing performance as things went sideways.

A sad thing to happen at any time, more so close to Christmas.

RIP.

[Doc]

Thoughts go out to friends and family.
It rips my heart out that this sort of thing happens.
Fly safe

[Beefitarian]

Me too Doc.

the aircraft was trying to do approaches

Pretty sporty night to be practicing ILS's.

Sounds more like they diverted from Carp when they couldn't get in there, which would be a bit more sane. Still questionable depending on the weather briefing they got, but not as bad as doing training in moderate icing with the ceiling at minimums.

I'll add in some of my pure speculation. I'm wondering if either it was the closest/first place to come up on the GPS or if one or both of them felt they had some farmiliarity with that field? When everything else is getting ugly, "I've been to xxxxx let's try to go there."

[tonyhunt]

I'll add in some of my pure speculation. I'm wondering if either it was the closest/first place to come up on the GPS or if one or both of them felt they had some farmiliarity with that field? When everything else is getting ugly, "I've been to xxxxx let's try to go there."

They were based out of Rockcliffe in the summer, and had moved to Carp for the winter. They knew the whole area. When ceilings are low, you have to go to CYOW. When the GFA indicates conditions like last night, you should be making strategic decisions (which hotel?) instead of tactical ones (ILS or RNAV?).

I spent a week in Erie Pennsylvania one night because CYOW was reporting conditions like last night, and we were two IR pilots flying a de-iced twin.

.... We'll never really know what transpired in the plane, but you could easily imagine a poor initial decision to go, followed by rising levels of stress/panic and decreasing performance as things went sideways.

A sad thing to happen at any time, more so close to Christmas.

RIP.

Exactly.

[Doc]

When the GFA indicates conditions like last night, you should be making strategic decisions (which hotel?) instead of tactical ones (ILS or RNAV?).

Absolutely! About half way into their flight the question should have been.."Where's he nearest Holiday Inn...."
Me? I'd still be in Wilkes Barre drinking beer.

[Beefitarian]

When the GFA indicates conditions like last night, you should be making strategic decisions (which hotel?) instead of tactical ones (ILS or RNAV?).

Absolutely! About half way into their flight the question should have been.."Where's he nearest Holiday Inn...."
Me? I'd still be in Wilkes Barre drinking beer.

Add me.

I don't mind if people want to make fun of me for waiting until I like the weather enough to fly.

[CFR]

When the GFA indicates conditions like last night, you should be making strategic decisions (which hotel?) instead of tactical ones (ILS or RNAV?).

Absolutely! About half way into their flight the question should have been.."Where's he nearest Holiday Inn...."
Me? I'd still be in Wilkes Barre drinking beer.

Add me.

I don't mind if people want to make fun of me for waiting until I like the weather enough to fly.

Well with that attitude you're going to be around to make fun of for a very long time!

[ahramin]

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CFEF ... P/tracklog

What I don't understand is why they even tried to do an approach into Carp

Doesn't look like they did.

Carp probably doesn't enter into the equation as customs is ay CYOW.

They were filed for Carp.

Can one of our FSS types post the GFA at the time please? (Do we have any FSS types left or did the proles drives them all away?)

[ahramin]

Has anyone seen any info on whether or not the ELT functioned? Emergency Services response time is definitely going to be scrutinized.

[gwengler]

They would/should have seen this TAF:

TAF CYOW 142038Z 1421/1518 10005KT 2SM BR OVC005
TEMPO 1421/1422 6SM BR OVC010
FM142300 10005KT P6SM SCT015 BKN040
TEMPO 1423/1501 2SM BR OVC009
FM150100 10005KT P6SM -SHRASN OVC030
FM150200 11007KT 6SM -RA BR OVC020
FM150700 16012KT 3SM -RA BR OVC008
FM151000 19015G25KT 2SM -RA BR OVC007
FM151400 20020G30KT 3SM -RA BR OVC010
RMK NXT FCST BY 150000Z=

I don't know about temperatures and icing; however, this looks totally flyable for a current IFR pilot even in a small plane. For the time of their arrival (around 0000Z) the worst would have been TEMPO 2SM OVC009; that's of course for Ottawa, assuming that Carp has very similar weather (?) even that would have been OK since the lowest approach there is 418'.

Gerd

[Beefitarian]

Well with that attitude you're going to be around to make fun of for a very long time!

Hopfully, there's lots of other mistakes to make though. I wish I was perfect. That would make flying a lot safer and easier.

Keep working on doing the best you can everyone.

[shitdisturber]

Has anyone seen any info on whether or not the ELT functioned? Emergency Services response time is definitely going to be scrutinized.

Supposedly, it took a couple of hours for Ontario Hydro to get the live wires shut down so that Emergency Services could get to the guys in the aircraft. From what I saw of the wreckage on tv last night it probably wouldn't have mattered; but two hours to shut down a couple of power lines?

[CFR]

Well with that attitude you're going to be around to make fun of for a very long time!

Hopfully, there's lots of other mistakes to make though. I wish I was perfect. That would make flying a lot safer and easier.

Keep working on doing the best you can everyone.

Mistakes! Every flight there is something I could have done better that I review post flight. From time to time a significant point will pop up. Last one was a few days ago, flying a Citabria, didn't notice tachometer fluctuating (to be fair it didn't always - I assume when I looked at it, it was OK) and didn't notice it had completely failed for about 5 minutes post failure (I recorded the flight and was able to see that the tach was showing signs of imminent failure a few times right from start-up - It was funny to see my response to the failure!). Tach was not part of my normal scan in that airplane ... it is now!

I try and learn something new every time and currently (fortunately or unfortunately) I still do.

[old_man]

They would/should have seen this TAF:

TAF CYOW 142038Z 1421/1518 10005KT 2SM BR OVC005
TEMPO 1421/1422 6SM BR OVC010
FM142300 10005KT P6SM SCT015 BKN040
TEMPO 1423/1501 2SM BR OVC009
FM150100 10005KT P6SM -SHRASN OVC030
FM150200 11007KT 6SM -RA BR OVC020
FM150700 16012KT 3SM -RA BR OVC008
FM151000 19015G25KT 2SM -RA BR OVC007
FM151400 20020G30KT 3SM -RA BR OVC010
RMK NXT FCST BY 150000Z=

I don't know about temperatures and icing; however, this looks totally flyable for a current IFR pilot even in a small plane. For the time of their arrival (around 0000Z) the worst would have been TEMPO 2SM OVC009; that's of course for Ottawa, assuming that Carp has very similar weather (?) even that would have been OK since the lowest approach there is 418'.

Gerd

Gerd, take a look at the type of precipitation that is forcast and then consider if there is a possibility of icing. That should answer your question about not knowing temperatures and icing.

Condolences to the families and friends of those involved. My only hope is that they figure out what exactly happened and people can learn something.

[Beefitarian]

I try and learn something new every time and currently (fortunately or unfortunately) I still do.

That's the best way to go. I wish I didn't need to re-learn as many things.

[tonyhunt]

They would/should have seen this TAF:

TAF CYOW 142038Z 1421/1518 10005KT 2SM BR OVC005
TEMPO 1421/1422 6SM BR OVC010
FM142300 10005KT P6SM SCT015 BKN040
TEMPO 1423/1501 2SM BR OVC009
FM150100 10005KT P6SM -SHRASN OVC030
FM150200 11007KT 6SM -RA BR OVC020
FM150700 16012KT 3SM -RA BR OVC008
FM151000 19015G25KT 2SM -RA BR OVC007
FM151400 20020G30KT 3SM -RA BR OVC010
RMK NXT FCST BY 150000Z=

I don't know about temperatures and icing; however, this looks totally flyable for a current IFR pilot even in a small plane. For the time of their arrival (around 0000Z) the worst would have been TEMPO 2SM OVC009; that's of course for Ottawa, assuming that Carp has very similar weather (?) even that would have been OK since the lowest approach there is 418'.

Gerd

Gerd, take a look at the type of precipitation that is forcast and then consider if there is a possibility of icing. That should answer your question about not knowing temperatures and icing.

Afternoon METARs showing temp 01, dewpoint 01, and GFA suggesting moderate mixed icing over the region above the freezing level. It had been like that most of the day.

[ozone]

CBC is reporting both were pilots. The most experienced was 300hrs and a short time ago received his instrument rating. I would say a classic example of poor decision making caused by "get home itus"

Very sad...I'm hoping we can all learn something from this

[Doc]

Don't know what kind of equipment the 177 had on board, but the media says the pilot was qualified for the weather. I do know, for a fact that I'm not even remotely qualified to go to 200 feet in a Cardinal. Don't know many who are....

[Colonel Sanders]

I'm not even remotely qualified to go to 200 feet in a Cardinal

It seems unlikely that the 177 had a coupled autopilot.

I teach on really weird airplanes, and I guess I probably teach the instrument
rating pretty weird, too. The ILS is a lovely approach because they are all the
same - just dial in the localizer. And, it gives you vertical guidance.

First, I teach the ILS to 500 AGL. It's not too hard. Don't chase the needles,
use the heading indicator. Now you see why everyone loves HSI. When you
roll out on the loc, immediately make the GPS track the same as the loc inbound
track on the plate and the loc will stay marvellously centered. Drop the gear at
GS intercept and down you go.

Next is the ILS to 200 AGL (cat 1 ILS minima). This gets harder because of
the increased sensitivity of the needles as the localizer and especially glideslope
narrows. It gets harder still when there is some wind, and you need to take
off the crab in the descent. Practice.

Next is the ILS to 100 AGL (cat 2 ILS minima). Yes, the aircraft and the eqpt
on the ground may not be legal for it, but actually in the USA you can get cat II
certification under part 91 in a little airplane with no autopilot. Seriously. It's
a good skill to have, "just in case". The glideslope needle gets really sensitive
and it's important not to set up a PIO in pitch.

Next is the ILS to a blind landing. The GS goes completely bananas, but if you
keep a nice rate of descent going, and keep the loc needle centered, you will
land on the runway. Power off. It won't be the prettiest landing you have
ever made, but you and the aircraft will do very well, considering the alternative.

I am sure there will be people who think I am irresponsible for teaching the ILS
to 100 AGL and to the surface, but not everyone loves me as much as they
should.

Another superb ILS exercise: after an overshoot, leave climb power on. This
works well at night when it's not too bumpy. Accelerate in the procedure turn
or vector, and leave climb power on as you intercept the loc and even after
GS intercept. Leave the gear and flaps up, obviously. You should indicate a
solid 200 mph inside the NDB, aircraft type depending. The loc and gs needles
will be unbelieveably sensitive, but if you can fly an ILS at 200 mph, an ILS at
100 mph will be a cinch. Remember what Neitzsche said. When you overshoot
at 200 AGL, you will have so much kinetic energy you can pop right back up
to procedure turn altitude to do it again. Kinda fun.

[grimey]

According to the radio (grain of salt, yadda yadda yadda...), the pilot had 300 hours and had just received his instrument rating.

edit: missed ozone's post, sorry

[KK7]

RIP to the two of them. I didn't know the passenger but the pilot was a student of mine many years ago. It's hard as an instructor not to ask yourself what I could have done even though it appears there is nothing that could have saved him from potentially bad decision making We all make bad decisions at some point in our lives, too bad this one ended his and his friend's life.

[Doc]

I'm not even remotely qualified to go to 200 feet in a Cardinal

It seems unlikely that the 177 had a coupled autopilot.

I teach on really weird airplanes, and I guess I probably teach the instrument
rating pretty weird, too. The ILS is a lovely approach because they are all the
same - just dial in the localizer. And, it gives you vertical guidance.

First, I teach the ILS to 500 AGL. It's not too hard. Don't chase the needles,
use the heading indicator. Now you see why everyone loves HSI. When you
roll out on the loc, immediately make the GPS track the same as the loc inbound
track on the plate and the loc will stay marvellously centered. Drop the gear at
GS intercept and down you go.

Next is the ILS to 200 AGL (cat 1 ILS minima). This gets harder because of
the increased sensitivity of the needles as the localizer and especially glideslope
narrows. It gets harder still when there is some wind, and you need to take
off the crab in the descent. Practice.

Next is the ILS to 100 AGL (cat 2 ILS minima). Yes, the aircraft and the eqpt
on the ground may not be legal for it, but actually in the USA you can get cat II
certification under part 91 in a little airplane with no autopilot. Seriously. It's
a good skill to have, "just in case". The glideslope needle gets really sensitive
and it's important not to set up a PIO in pitch.

Next is the ILS to a blind landing. The GS goes completely bananas, but if you
keep a nice rate of descent going, and keep the loc needle centered, you will
land on the runway. Power off. It won't be the prettiest landing you have
ever made, but you and the aircraft will do very well, considering the alternative.

I am sure there will be people who think I am irresponsible for teaching the ILS
to 100 AGL and to the surface, but not everyone loves me as much as they
should.

Another superb ILS exercise: after an overshoot, leave climb power on. This
works well at night when it's not too bumpy. Accelerate in the procedure turn
or vector, and leave climb power on as you intercept the loc and even after
GS intercept. Leave the gear and flaps up, obviously. You should indicate a
solid 200 mph inside the NDB, aircraft type depending. The loc and gs needles
will be unbelieveably sensitive, but if you can fly an ILS at 200 mph, an ILS at
100 mph will be a cinch. Remember what Neitzsche said. When you overshoot
at 200 AGL, you will have so much kinetic energy you can pop right back up
to procedure turn altitude to do it again. Kinda fun.

So, an ILS to 200 feet should be duck soup, then? There is a big difference doing all that fun stuff with an instructor you trust sitting by your side, and a real one. Especially for a guy with 300 hours. You wouldn't catch me doing it, and I have a tad over 300 hours. At least in a 177.