Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

[azimuthaviation]

If you want paid $700,000.00 and drive a porsche so bad then go be a doctor.

or a plumber

[BTyyj]

I still can't figure out for the life on my why people insist on comparing pilots to doctors.....sort of like comparing a banana to a rock.

Care to elaborate?

How many pilots own a home over $700,000 and drive a porsche? I don't know a single physician that doesn't.

Wait a minute... Do we know the same people?

In all seriousness, I think any white collar job is comparable in some way. Basing the job on how much of an educational background it requires is probably the wrong way to look at it. In the scheme of things, like Bede pointed out, both require hard work, lot of money, motivation, and some intelligence. Yeah, maybe becoming a doctor requires a hell of a lot more of that, but at the end of the year, they get to bring home a hell of a lot more too.

[MeAndMrPenguin]

My wife is a General Specialist (yes it is deemed a specialty now, kinda like a swiss army knife of doctors) and has specialized training in Emergency Medicine.

Pay varies from province to province. Lets do some math with information easily found on the net.

Lets average $35 per patient (no modifiers which pay more), office only, no moonlighting. (B.C. is $28 where Alberta is $38).

40 patients a day (some see 80???) = $1400

Minus overhead = 30 % = $980

5 days a week/ 48 weeks a year = $235 200 Annual

They pay about $15 000 a year in fees/insurance/association dues etc.

So, that is $220 000 a year, 1 month off, 9-5 5 days a week home every night with the most basic billing code out there.

Now consider a physician that works evenings (after 10 care can net about $100 per 15 minute block), at a government building (NO overhead), earns money from WCB and private billing or sees more than 40 a day and you can see what they earn. Now you know why the walk in doctor sometimes keeps his hand on the door knob.

(This is a general example. I have no interest in sharing my wifes income)

I work for one of two major carriers in Canada.I will never meet her average wage doing what I do unless she goes part time.

I think you are right on specialists, but this is chosen, as is flying. It depends on the specialty. They only let in so many a year (8 dermatologist a year I think) to keep a lid on this problem. Getting the fellowship is the hard part.

[The Hammer]

You can have the glory and pay of the doctor. There isn't a single day on the ramp or flight line that is as bad as sticking your hand up the a$$ of some 450 lb dumb a$$ who stuck a gerbil up there or removing the 40 year old IUD from a 75 year old granny (both are real examples from medical friends).

[bellanca]

I started to read this thread and it made me feel sick. I can't believe pilots even have the audacity to comparing themselves to Doctors. If a pilot has so much responsibility because of all the people's lives in their hands...why does a wide body cargo pilot make just as much. Doctors are dealing with peoples lives everyday. A horrible comparison. The only a$$ a pilot is concerned with is there own.

[Bede]

Sorry Ballanca, but I can't see much on this thread to support your idea that we are comparing our value to society to doctors. I was only comparing incomes based on data that is publicly available.

[BTyyj]

I started to read this thread and it made me feel sick. I can't believe pilots even have the audacity to comparing themselves to Doctors. If a pilot has so much responsibility because of all the people's lives in their hands...why does a wide body cargo pilot make just as much. Doctors are dealing with peoples lives everyday. A horrible comparison. The only a$$ a pilot is concerned with is there own.

I don't think your comment is exactly fair.

Nobody would compare pilots to doctors in terms of value to society. If there were no pilots, it would be tougher to go on vacation and businesses would start using distance communication. It could have some serious implications to some societies, like the northern communities, but humanity as a whole would still be around. If we lost medical health personel (including doctors) however, the world would go into chaos.

It would be fair, however, to compare responsibilities. Both handles peoples lives. Doctors more directly, but far less lives. Pilots less directly, but far more lives.

As Bede noted, we are just comparing pay and some are comparing difficulty to enter these professions.

[MeAndMrPenguin]

The two jobs in terms of responsibility are quite different. Both are safety sensitive and can effect whether one lives or dies. As for who deserves to be paid more, it is easily the doctors.

What this thread should be about, is how medicine trails aviation in how it approaches safety. No CRM training. Little structural support. No non punitive safety reporting. I almost fall over when I hear some of the stories. Some of them are textbook CRM case studies.

I have been able to share some CRM with her when she faces nurses or specialists who act like 1960's crusty captains. She in turn has been able to determine, through various testing that I am not not in fact a god, just another simple line pilot.

[azimuthaviation]

I started to read this thread and it made me feel sick. I can't believe pilots even have the audacity to comparing themselves to Doctors. If a pilot has so much responsibility because of all the people's lives in their hands...why does a wide body cargo pilot make just as much. Doctors are dealing with peoples lives everyday. A horrible comparison. The only a$$ a pilot is concerned with is there own.

You joined AvCanada just to post that?

[ozone]

There is no comparison. If you are gonna compare I think a more suitable comparison would be pilots and bus drivers. Both require very little education and both have a big responsibility to keep their passengers safe. There are hundreds of jobs out there besides pilots who are responsible for other peoples safety and have huge repercussions if they screw up. AME's, taxi drivers, nurses, boat captains, train conductors etc....

[Cat Driver]

There is no comparison. If you are gonna compare I think a more suitable comparison would be pilots and bus drivers.

Actually if you examine this based on the difficulty of driving the vehicle a bus driver does not have an autopilot .......or a FMC to type driving instructions into his bus's upcoming trip.

Education wise a bus driver and a pilot need about the same......be able to read.....have a basic grasp of math....be able to distinguish color so you recognize the color of a warning light.

To compare a pilot to a medical doctor is absurd.

[BTyyj]

There is no comparison. If you are gonna compare I think a more suitable comparison would be pilots and bus drivers. Both require very little education and both have a big responsibility to keep their passengers safe. There are hundreds of jobs out there besides pilots who are responsible for other peoples safety and have huge repercussions if they screw up. AME's, taxi drivers, nurses, boat captains, train conductors etc....

I doubt many bus drivers or persons in the occupations you mentioned have a PhD, MD, MBA, etc, whereas I know a few pilots that do. There is also a bunch of pilots with engineering degrees. That being said, education doesn't mean anything when you have no experience. It takes a lot of time and in many cases a lot of hard work to become a pilot, bus driver not so much.

This thread is getting ridiculous - its now turned into a rip on pilots thread.

[Beefitarian]

Bus drivers usually don't have to deal with a lack of roads to use for navigation. If you were younger you could totally get a job driving a bus Cat.

[av8tor_assrope]

Give some of your heads a shake. Talk about dumbing down our profession. Call me an arrogant ass but I am comfortable comparing myself, and other pilots to Doctor’s. I wish a lot of fellow pilot’s thought the same way too. I just so happen to be an airline pilot. I am responsible for safely transporting 189 (plus infants and crew) to their desired destination. They put their their lives and the lives of their families in my hands. Frankly, for all the bullshit we have to go through and the responsibilty we have (in all levels of this industry) I think we should be paid a hell of a lot more than Doctor's.

Flame away......

[Cat Driver]

I doubt many bus drivers or persons in the occupations you mentioned have a PhD, MD, MBA, etc, whereas I know a few pilots that do

.

I am aware you are just starting out in this industry.......but you are ignoring the basic fact that one does not need any degree or document outside of a commercial pilot license to be a working pilot...period...therefore the comparisons between doctors and pilots are meaningless.

it takes a lot of time and in many cases a lot of hard work to become a pilot.

Time wise about two years of training would be the most you would need and two hundred hours of flying time.

Your earning ability will be directly tied to your experience and your value to your employer.

My highest earning years were the last ten years of my career, by that time I was able to make a thousand dollars a day for my services.

Non of my employers ever asked me what formal education I had...ever.

[Beefitarian]

My highest earning years were the last ten years of my career

Maybe you could have got a decent job earlier if you went to skool moar.

[Cat Driver]

The emotions being displayed here are very interesting and the logic involved is even more interesting.

I was a working pilot for fifty two years and don't recall ever using my passengers for a base line on how I planned my flights....I made sure I got there safely and logic would dictate if I arrived safely the passengers would be right there behind me.

Risk wise when one is flying a large jet it becomes less of a risk as it is a team effort using very sophisticated machinery that does a lot of the work for you...not to mention you are generally directed and monitored by ATC. ( Angola for instance was a bit dicey for ATC service. )

Looking back at the different areas of flying I was involved in I would say heavy lift helicopter logging was the highest risk.

[Cat Driver]

Maybe you could have got a decent job earlier if you went to skool moar.

Actually I was not doing to bad thirty three years before I retired Beef... that was the year I first started flying as a captain on heavy water bombers and salary wise it was at the top of the aviation food chain at the time.

[bandaid]

I was going to say we'll compare pilots to paramedics. My wages after 32 years does not even come close, but we have been here before. Just remember, not all paramedics are flight paramedics, you can't compare those people from us street line guys. We actually had to work for a living.

[BTyyj]

I doubt many bus drivers or persons in the occupations you mentioned have a PhD, MD, MBA, etc, whereas I know a few pilots that do

.

I am aware you are just starting out in this industry.......but you are ignoring the basic fact that one does not need any degree or document outside of a commercial pilot license to be a working pilot...period...therefore the comparisons between doctors and pilots are meaningless.

it takes a lot of time and in many cases a lot of hard work to become a pilot.

Time wise about two years of training would be the most you would need and two hundred hours of flying time.

Your earning ability will be directly tied to your experience and your value to your employer.

My highest earning years were the last ten years of my career, by that time I was able to make a thousand dollars a day for my services.

Non of my employers ever asked me what formal education I had...ever.

Don't get me wrong, I know where you're coming from. But things are changing. At AC for example, most pilots hired have at least a diploma in aviation. It is getting more competitive.

Saying this thread is somewhat about doctors, lets bring them into the mix. During the whole extent that man has been practicing medicine, only recently has post-secondary been a requirement, and only very recently was an undergraduate required for Medical School. Stuff gets more competitive. Piloting is as well.

I brought up the MD/PhD thing because it proves that highly educated and smart people are entering this industry, which means it challenging and worthwhile.

[trey kule]

Here is the thing...Years ago , when pay scales were published, pilots were among the top paid.

What happened? Medical schools limited the number of doctors..A shortage almost all the time.
Flight colleges pump excess pilots out by the hundreds..

Technology has enabled doctors to do their job better. Technology has enabled airlines to hire less qualified and experienced pilots, ..at least so far.

Compare pilots to bus drivers>? What bus driver will work for free for experience to drive a newer shinier bus? Or cut the bosses lawn, do the books, or wash the bosses car...They prove their worth driving the bus. Not loading it

Yep, keep telling yourselves you no better than a bus driver...That will improve things.
And dont write you MP and complain about the millions, yes millions, of tax dollars being spent at the flight colleges to pump out a huge percentage of pilots who will never work in the industry..Someone should post those numbers for all the colleges....How many doctors finish and then stop practicing within the first five years, or cant get a job because there is a glut.

And whatever you do, dont refer to yourself as a professional, captain, or by any other term that people could perceive as arrogant.

[Beefitarian]

Air Canada has been requiring at minimum a post secondary Diploma for decades.
~keys mike~ "Air Canada heavy flight xxxx ready for push back so we can select FMS auto and catch some Zees while this here shiney aeroplane takes us to our destination hee-yuck." ~mike off~ "Shore glad I never had to go to skool just to get me a job."

The emotions being displayed here are very interesting

Apathy towards your, "I'm just a simple country mouse. Them there Doctors is magic." act?

Risk wise when one is flying a large jet it becomes less of a risk as it is a team effort using very sophisticated machinery that does a lot of the work for you...not to mention you are generally directed and monitored by ATC.

Wow, what a relief. They must never crash.

The medical profession. If I can drag them down to such a description without insulting their status too much. On occasion has people that need to use fancy technology and team work to do things also.

Not everyone's doctor eyes them up and perscribes whatever the most popular med is for that week and sends them off. "That'll fix it. NEXT!" Maybe it's not the 1700s anymore and there's a team of them with lot's of machines before they start opening a person up. Not just one spectacularly brilliant person with a bucket of dirty water and a bone saw. "That leg's gonna have to come off."

[azimuthaviation]

It shouldnt be that easy to be a pilot. In Lebanon I will never be able to fly for the national airline, you dont apply with hours and experience you apply with academic credentials and given an assesment based on a battery of physical and aptitude tests. Theres one intake a year, you are allowed one second attempt and must have university completed. Maximum age is 25.

http://www.mea.com.lb/English/Careers/P ... careerid=3

1. General Requirements
A. Lebanese Nationality
B. Recent and clean judicial record
C. Medically fit
D. Prepared to undergo rigorous medical testing, theoretical, and flight training


2. Age
Born between 01/01/1985 and 31/12/1993 (both dates inclusive)

3. Physical Requirements
A. Acceptable physical appearance
B. Height: minimum 170 cm (males) and 168 cm (females)
C. Weight: appropriate to height
D. Adequate Body Mass Index (BMI)


4. Medical Requirements
A. In good health
B. Complete and sign, with your physician's signature & stamp, MEA Cadet Pilot Medical screening form (download form 3)
C. Non smoker; if you are a smoker you must stop smoking (proof is required)


5. Education
A. Lebanese Baccalaureate or official equivalence
B. Successfully completed, or expects to complete by Summer of year 2011, one year of university or Sophomore (about 33 credits); Freshman is not acceptable.
C. Candidates who do not comply with B above, will be considered but will not be accepted for training until they complete 1 year of university.


6. Languages speaking reading and writing
A. English
B. Arabic


Competence
A. Math
B. Physics
C. Mechanical comprehension
D. General aptitude
E. Computer skills

[SuperchargedRS]

Remember most pilots like to downgrade themselves, kinda a weird but that's aviation.

Now for a doctor making 220k per year, yea I can see that.

Recent posting for a pilot over in afganastsn was 130k plus 35% danger another plus 35% and that's tax free.

Some folks spraying will get into the low the six figure regions as well.

As for responsibility a pilot having a bad day will normaly be far worse then the doctor f'ing up.

As for the education, being a doctor is a lot more to learn but you have alot more time in school to learn it. I've known average guys who came from some money who became docs (and some lawyers) just a factor of motivation, commitment and $$.

In my free time right now I am getting my paramedic license, this something I am doing for fun and as something aside from instructing I can do in my off season. I have been able to knock these courses out the park with far less effort then I expected, just a matter of time management, drive and common sense. A paramedic is about the same level as a RN nurse btw.

If you can think out the box a little as a pilot you can get up there money wise.

And cat, comparing a pilot to a bus driver is like comparing a vascular surgeon to a plumber, just watching the pressure and minding the leaks right lol

[Colonel Sanders]

I know a few pilots that have PhD, MD, MBA, engineering degrees

IMHO, it is a waste of an education to spend all that time, money and effort and then go fly airplanes for a living.

Don't ever confuse what some fat cow in an HR department asks for in a job advertisement, with reality. All you need is:

- a high school diploma (even that is arguable)
- an interest in how stuff works
- some basic hand-eye skills

A PhD is the "union card" required to be a University Professor. It is nearly always complete overkill for anything in the private sector. It tells people you like to waste your time.

Anyone with an MBA oughta be running the airline, not driving an aluminum tube around.