Kestral wrote:The Bond at VAL is not really a Training Bond. . . It's more of an Employment Bond. They are more interested in you staying for a year. Yes, the cost of training is an issue, but not he main concern. They invest time and resources in getting you set up to work in the various locations they fly.
Even if you have a current Type-rating/PPC on Dash 7 or 8, CRJ, you will still have to front the money and it is not pro-rated. After one year of service you will get it back.
And still the suckers line up at the door....unbloodybeleiveable!
Kestral wrote:It's more of an Employment Bond. They are more interested in you staying for a year. They invest time and resources in getting you set up to work in the various locations they fly.
Even if you have a current Type-rating/PPC on Dash 7 or 8, CRJ, you will still have to front the money and it is not pro-rated. After one year of service you will get it back.
Seems pretty black and white to me. Total money grab. Every company, in every industry "invest time and resources...." in their employees. It's called, the "cost of doing business"....Business costs money. Big surprise! Only in aviation is this "cost", lightly veiled as a "bond" an issue. And, you people defend it? Welcome to the bottom of the food chain.
Chaxterium wrote:I made $80,000 last year. As an FO. I worked 5 months out of the year. If that's the bottom of the food chain then sign me up.
A good hooker can make at least that. What's your point? I guess, for you it's the money? Lots of highly paid pilots out there that didn't have to buy their jobs. Guess you're happy not being one of them. Whatever floats yer boat.
I seldom post here anymore, but this subject just makes me depressed.
Once a person is licensed and qualified to be considered for training on a company airplane I am amazed there are pilots who will actually pay money in front to buy a job.
KAG wrote:Don't forget overseas tax credit, if you work only outside Canadain airspace for 6 months you get a massive refund.
Unfortunately that's not true for our two Dash 7 contracts in Afghanistan because they're not UN contracts. However because of this fact, our overseas pay rate is significantly increased. Even when you factor in the overseas tax credit our pay here works out to just a little more than the UN contracts. It's not by much though.
Cheers,
Chax
Doesn't matter. As long as on your days off you don't fly within Canada and within at least 6 months all your flying is outside canada you qualify. I worked for borek and flew I the USA, Africa, south pacific and got substancial refunds (12-14k) You should look into it.
KAG wrote:Don't forget overseas tax credit, if you work only outside Canadain airspace for 6 months you get a massive refund.
Unfortunately that's not true for our two Dash 7 contracts in Afghanistan because they're not UN contracts. However because of this fact, our overseas pay rate is significantly increased. Even when you factor in the overseas tax credit our pay here works out to just a little more than the UN contracts. It's not by much though.
Cheers,
Chax
Doesn't matter. As long as on your days off you don't fly within Canada and within at least 6 months all your flying is outside canada you qualify. I worked for borek and flew I the USA, Africa, south pacific and got substancial refunds (12-14k) You should look into it.
It matters. I expect Borek was doing something related to mining (or sold it as such to CRA); otherwise, hope that CRA doesn't do an audit or challenge the credit.
"In general, to qualify for the OETC, you must have performed all or substantially all (at least 90%) of your employment duties outside Canada for a period of more than six consecutive months (all or part of which were during the tax year for which you are claiming the credit) with a specified employer.
Your duties must also have been in connection with a contract (or for the purpose of obtaining a contract) under which your employer carried on a business outside Canada conducting one of the following activities:
•the exploration for or exploitation of petroleum, natural gas, minerals, or other similar resources;
•any construction, installation, agricultural, or engineering activity;
•any activity performed under contract with the United Nations (UN); or
•any activity performed to obtain a contract to undertake any of the above activities"
Doc wrote:Lots of highly paid pilots out there that didn't have to buy their jobs. Guess you're happy not being one of them. Whatever floats yer boat.
I have to ask... buying something implies giving money to someone in exchange for a service. This is not what happens here. Money is held in trust at the bank and the company never touches the money unless you violate your contract. Likewise if the company violates whatever clauses that apply to them in the contract, the money is yours. At the end of the year, the money is returned to you plus whatever interest you had to pay. At the end of one year, you've paid nothing.
Doc wrote:A good hooker can make at least that. What's your point?
My point is that despite what you think, I never bought anything. I kept my word and not a single cent went from my pocket to my employer's pocket.
Doc wrote:I guess, for you it's the money?
Yes. Yes it is the money. Money puts food on my family's plates.
I understand you have your opinion and you have every right to it. What bothers me is that you're judging me on incorrect information. You are trying to paint a picture of a pimply faced pilot with a brand new CPL strolling up to Voyageur's office and dropping a big pile of crisp $100 bills on the desk saying "I'll pay you whatever you want, just let me fly." There are companies - and unfortunately pilots - like that. Voyageur is not one of those companies and I am not one of those pilots. If you're going to have an opinion at least try to make it an informed one. In this case I respectfully tell you you are wrong.
If your point is that it's shitty that pilots have to back up our words with money then I completely agree with you. Unfortunately the reasons this is the case were formed way before I even took my first training flight. If you want to complain to someone, complain to the guy who finished his King Air 200 PPC on Friday and gave his two weeks notice on Monday. I'm the guy who kept my word. I agreed to a year, and I've stayed for almost 4. In a perfect world there would be no such thing as bonds but this is far from a perfect world. And I have mouths to feed.
Doc wrote:A good hooker can make at least that. What's your point?
My point is that despite what you think, I never bought anything. I kept my word and not a single cent went from my pocket to my employer's pocket.
Left the "hooker" quote in, because it gave me a laugh!
So, you're saying you did NOT come up with a pot of money before taking your position with VAL? I as this, because you had to have the money to give them (if indeed you did give them money) which in of itself would disqualify every pilot who, was either unwilling, or unable to cough up a pile of money.....making VAL's hiring practices, at very least discriminatory as Hell! Take two equally qualified applicants. One has 20K to put up as a "bond", the other, for whatever reason just can't/wont cough up the dough....If you can't see the point here, you'll fail the vision part of your next medical....DEFPOTEC.....BTW.
Brown Bear wrote:
So, you're saying you did NOT come up with a pot of money before taking your position with VAL?
Brown Bear you make a very valid point but yes, that is EXACTLY what I'm saying. I barely had two nickels to rub together when I got this job. Let me repeat, I GAVE NO MONEY TO VOYAGEUR AT ANY TIME and I sure as hell didn't have that kind of money laying around.
It was basically an agreement between me and CIBC that if I did not fulfill my end of the bargain then CIBC would give Voyageur the money and I would then owe CIBC and would pay it off as a typical loan. Since I had every intention of honouring my end of the bargain I was happy with the arrangement. Well happy is not the right word. I could live with the arrangement. I was not out any money at all at any point. Voyageur does not see this money. At no point is any money in the hands of Voyageur. This is what makes the agreement different from other companies. An example is TransCapital. Voyageur gets shit on by people who have no idea what they're talking about yet TransCap will not hire you unless you already have a PPC or are willing to pay - UP FRONT - for the cost of the training. That is buying a job. This is not.
Hey Chax, are you in camp now. My block is over near the Asian dfac. Here is some fun reading for you. http://justdfacsmaam.wordpress.com/. We should get together for a coffee some time.
I just want to second what Chax is saying. Although I don't work at VAL anymore, I spent four great years there with good people, getting paid what I would consider slightly above industry standard, and at most working only half the year. Like Chax I had no money to give anyone for a type rating when I started there. Yes they do have an employment agreement but it doesn't involve the employee possessing any amount of cash.
So why do they need an employment agreement if they are a decent company to work for, why are they worried about people taking advantage of them? There are a few reasons:
1/ In my experience of working overseas for quite some time, the work and the places we work are often not what people first expect. For some like myself, we love working in this environment, or perhaps for some they tolerate it so they can be off for 2 months. But for others, it's so different than what they imagined they do one tour and quit soon after. It's not because the employer was bad, the work was unsafe, but they discovered that perhaps:
a) It was more difficult than expected to be away from the family for so long,
b) The food really didn't agree with them, or
c) They didn't like the stink of the third world.
Whatever their reason, they had all intents to stick around when they started off, but it just wasn't their cup of tea. I think the employment agreement forces potential candidates to really examine what they are getting themselves into, knowing that if they don't like it, it could be costly to not keep their word. I think it's probably pretty successful at keeping people who aren't really sure if this type of work is for them, away, before the company spends a large amount of money training them.
2/ Although the DHC-7 type rating isn't the most valuable to have in the industry, two of VAL's other types are very much in demand: DHC-8 and CRJ. We can see on this board just how many people start off in this industry hoping to find the job close to home, namely Toronto being the big one. We all know that often, to get your start in aviation you have to leave Toronto to gain some experience. I think there is a large risk with some potential hires that might show up if there was no employment agreement, would do the training and burn them in favour of getting a job closer to home. Of course there is nothing wrong with wanting a job close to home, but preferably not by fooling a company that you're going to work for them to get training, then immediately leave for greener pastures. What this is doing is accepting that okay, this candidate will eventually move on, and VAL more than admits right in the interview that it is okay if VAL is a stepping stone in your career. But if you want this training and experience, you need to give a year before you leave.
At the end of the day, not one penny is spent on training out of the employee's pocket. You work a good rotation on good bases with a decent benefits package, and you make more than most others.
Having been there for 4 years would I recommend it to others, absolutely. I moved on not because of any issues I had with VAL, but because of other life factors and ambitions. But the one caveat I would give to potential employees is know what you're getting into. Do some research on the countries VAL works in:
- Afghanistan
- Ivory Coast
- Congo
- Sudan
Check out what it's going to be like, and keep in mind that you'll be living in these places for 2 month stints. If you have a family make sure your family is on board because there is nothing worse than having an upset spouse/kids over your career. If after this you think that this job suits you, then I highly recommend it.
I got screwed over by an employee at VAL. I used to flame companies who asked for bonds. VAL is a LEGIT company who asks pilots with some PIC time on a king air to put their money where their mouth is to get a type rating on a medium. I saw pilots move on from there to the heavies. The pilots are expected to fly VFR into gravel strips with no nav aids and with marginal weather forecasts. I have the utmost respect for the company and the crews. Snags? Fix! Bad weather> Don't fly!
I may have had a question about bonds when they had the king air medivacs, but when they ask for a commitment to fly in extreme conditions in a strange part of the world, I would do it without blinking!
The problem is I have also seen mama's boys who couldn't handle bush flying away from home.
Unless you have first hand proof that they screwed you over, don't speculate and shut the f&%k up.
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Last edited by Lost Lake on Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
My pleasure. I'm tired of seeing my company's name being dragged through the mud because people chose not to do any research or actually learn anything about the company and instead take gossip as gospel. Not to mention judging me without knowing anything about who I am or what I stand for.
This company is sure as hell not perfect, but it certainly doesn't deserve the reputation it has on these boards.
My pleasure. I'm tired of seeing my company's name being dragged through the mud because people chose not to do any research or actually learn anything about the company and instead take gossip as gospel. Not to mention judging me without knowing anything about who I am or what I stand for.
This company is sure as hell not perfect, but it certainly doesn't deserve the reputation it has on these boards.
Cheers,
Chax
Well I know you're a complete douche
It does get old, guess we'll keep it as our own secret then! You seeing the left seat soon? You have a reference here if needed. Cheers man!
raven54 wrote:
Well I know you're a complete douche
Sorry man but I just can't take you seriously without the handle bars. Grow em back! I'm going full bush here for now. I look like a serial killer lumberjack. Just missing the plaid jacket.
raven54 wrote:
It does get old, guess we'll keep it as our own secret then! You seeing the left seat soon? You have a reference here if needed. Cheers man!
Thanks man! Hopefully soon. The chief is looking at giving me a left seat ride on my time off but I'm still a few hours short so hopefully it'll happen.
