Pilot pay

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Cat Driver
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by Cat Driver »

The industry has accepted SMS?????
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spaner
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by spaner »

Good post star57,

Math is the master.
They always get you with the math, smoke and mirrors. Salary is fine for a 9 to 5 job, and I want weekends and stats off. No? You want me to be available 24 hours a day? Common...

How much is your time worth, compared to say a waitress? She gets 10 bucks an hour plus overtime, plus tips..say 15. So, an FO could be said, reasonably to be worth 30. Two times what a waitress makes. A Captain, 50% more, at 45....this is 2012 folks.
Overtime 1, that's 1.5 x hourly after 40hr in any 7 day period.
Overtime 2, that's 2.0 x hourly during any recognized stat, being provincial or federal.
What about coffee breaks and lunch? Still eating your lunch on approach? Get out'a there.
BTW, that's not "air time", that's an hourly wage paid for all things "pilot", from punch-in to punch-out. You don't see a welder getting a lower rate when he is doing the "grinding" portion of his job, do you? NO! You don't see him munching a sandwich while he's changing rods do you? NO!
Stop taking the crap guys, this is what a normal agreement looks like. Do the math, if the company wants me to work crazy hours, than they pay crazy amounts. A normal amount of work, a normal amount of pay. Figure it out @ 40hr a week and no stats and no overtime, reasonable.
Salary (or base+miles) is for suckers, and companies love it, because they can get all kinds of labour type work and paper work out of you and pay nothing extra. Or work on Christmas for no extra consideration, and certainly no Christmas bonus, which by the way, should be about 1% of earnings historically.

Don't even get me started on bonds. Guys are signing 24month bonds on 12month PPCs. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Guess what happens after 12months, they sign you to another bond for 24months, in order to renew your PPC. NO? Then you owe half the amount, as the 24month bond will amortize over the 24months. DO NOT SIGN THAT SH!T. This is what should be taught in ground school, as you will have to get used to taking the books home and forging documents anyway.

Now go clean the bathroom; I pay 500.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by Cat Driver »

Lying here in bed reading these comments It is apparent the industry has not improved since I retired.

Let's look at the supply and demand thing from another perspective.

I was in the advanced training business towards the end of my career and my pay was quite good, however if I were to decide to offer my services in the training industry today the pay is so low I could not justify the cost of going to the airport.

So at least I am not part of the supply problem.

To compare pilots to any other profession is a bit difficult to do, because most other professions pay better.
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Post by Beefitarian »

I don't know if you could because of the TC hassles but I would think you'd go as some form of contractor Cat.
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by Cat Driver »

The problem is not my hassles with T.C. Beef, the problem is the training industry is geared towards attracting low time pilots to teach......thus driving down the pay scale to where it does not even come close to be worth while doing.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Yeah, WalMart rolling back prices.
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Funny thing is that everyone shops there!
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Post by Beefitarian »

Almost.
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twotter
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by twotter »

Hey guys, here's a good ad for a low timer!!! If you believe it.. Seems like a scam to me..

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=80251

Maybe we should all learn Japanese.....
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HighT5
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by HighT5 »

Trim Spinner wrote:Where do you all come up with these arbitrary numbers?

You know what an acceptable pay is? It's the pay that I freely accept when I decide to work for a company.
I agree with you on this. But, there's a line up of guys that will fly a Navajo, even 1900 etc.. for peanuts or even for free. Even worse, as we all know, there's a line-up of guys willing to fly an Embraer for $38,000.

If more people thought like you then we would have fair wages. Sadly, that will never happen.
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CanadianEh
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by CanadianEh »

HighT5 wrote:
Trim Spinner wrote:Where do you all come up with these arbitrary numbers?

You know what an acceptable pay is? It's the pay that I freely accept when I decide to work for a company.
I agree with you on this. But, there's a line up of guys that will fly a Navajo, even 1900 etc.. for peanuts or even for free. Even worse, as we all know, there's a line-up of guys willing to fly an Embraer for $38,000.

If more people thought like you then we would have fair wages. Sadly, that will never happen.
The reason why they are lining up is not exclusively for the $38,000 job, it's for the prospect that one day their experience will garner them higher wages. The problem is that now those higher wages are disappearing unless you go abroad. We'll see what the laws of supply and demand have to say in the coming years.

http://video.ca.msn.com/watch/video/pil ... 3744404500||||
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arctic navigator
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by arctic navigator »

If you're looking for actual numbers I found this site in the Salaries forum ..com. Looks like its starting to turn into a pretty comprehensive list.
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by rapid602 »

Star57, I likke your thought process and I can think I am worth $80,000 a year all day long. However, if I live in a certain area of the counrty and have limited options for work and the company's going rate for a Captain is $60,000 a year for that job, and has been for 2 years, and has 50 guys who want it. I can pretty much bet that what I think and what I get will be two different things. However you are right, and if a company treated it pilots like proffesionals, and kinda kept them happy, many of them would not leave, for a greener patch of grass that is not greener. The best way for a company to save large amounts of time and money is to treat their pilots like proffesionals. ( not gods, not babies ) but gods would be nice.

But I understand your point and if a pilot wants to apply to KD Air for $2,000 a month and take that job, how do you stop that. KD Air pays $2,000 a month because they can. If no one took the job then the pay scale would increase. Pilots are income. they bring in dollars.

I understand the problem, but it is really not that clear cut to fix it either.
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star57
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by star57 »

rapid602 wrote:Star57, I likke your thought process and I can think I am worth $80,000 a year all day long. However, if I live in a certain area of the counrty and have limited options for work and the company's going rate for a Captain is $60,000 a year for that job, and has been for 2 years, and has 50 guys who want it. I can pretty much bet that what I think and what I get will be two different things. However you are right, and if a company treated it pilots like proffesionals, and kinda kept them happy, many of them would not leave, for a greener patch of grass that is not greener. The best way for a company to save large amounts of time and money is to treat their pilots like proffesionals. ( not gods, not babies ) but gods would be nice.

But I understand your point and if a pilot wants to apply to KD Air for $2,000 a month and take that job, how do you stop that. KD Air pays $2,000 a month because they can. If no one took the job then the pay scale would increase. Pilots are income. they bring in dollars.

I understand the problem, but it is really not that clear cut to fix it either.
Let's say the Professional Pilots Association is the body that issues that Commercial Pilots Licence, the rules would prevent you from taking that job...or the next pilot.
The airlines would now that it would cost 80k for a dash 8 captain, and that's the end of that.
Abuse takes place when there is two parties willing to participate, the abuser and the abused.
I have shocked people when I tell them how litle the young man or woman get paid on the right seat of the Jazz Embraer, pilots need to inform the public of how they are treated, and they can only do that if they unite and speak with a united voice.
Someone has to be the Rosa Parks... No guts, no Glory.
The solution is not a union, that would not be only provide high end salaries to a bunch of executives that sell you guys out.
Professional designation, that's the way to go.
Try doing some math...if a 737 goes from TO to YYC and on to YVR and it carries 110 people how much more per passenger would they have to charge o the co pilot would have a decent wage? Gentlemen the answer is less than $4.00 additional dollars per passenger.
And if the argument is that the Airline can't be competitive because of pilots wages, than they can't be in the Airline business.
These rules would apply to all Commercial pilots, regardless of what they fly...pay scale would be only based on experience and type certifications.
The children and the wife of the guy flying a conquest have the same right to be able to go to dinner or a movie as the wife of the executive in the airlines office doing PP,s for the Investors, I bet you he only has a BA.
I could go on...but it's late, you all have an obligation to act
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by trey kule »

this is a bit off topic, but the company I work for has, as part of its aircraft insurance policy, life insurance for the pilots while flying. It is a really nice touch, and not expensive at all in the scheme of things.

We do not need a college to implement this. Just convince TC to make it part of mandatory insurance like Pax liability or PD.....No need to follow you around or pay a bunch extra to an association.
You can then also buy cheap personal insurance that excludes flying as a crew member.

As far as pension benefits go, I think the industry in Canada really needs to work on getting the federal labor standard folks to start simply enforcing the labor standards first. some operators only pay for a portion of the promissed monthly wages based on the days actually flown (not worked).
Others seem to forget about stat holidays.
Once that gets under control, then a pension plan is a great idea. It should be part of the consideration of any renumeration package.

But as so many people point out, over and over.....as long as pilots will accept lower wages, terrible working conditions, all in the interest of getting ahead in their career, nothing is going to change.......well maybe we will see more multiple tier pay scales at the majors...Look for that soon with the new MCP license...companies will argue that they are not really , or will become actual pilots, so seniority raises are not necessary..They do the job right out of school. What importance is experience...the Canadian majors have enough experienced pilots and FOs to replace them for many many years to come..

The whole concept of being a pilot is undergoing a major change with technology.
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by BTyyj »

Just had a thought:

Why not increase Class IV instructor requirements to 1500 hrs and an ATPL? This would do two things:

1) Increase safety - The instructors would all have industry and flying experience, allowing them to pass on their knowledge and skills to their students.

2) Increase salary across the industry - The instructors with 1500 hrs would want higher pay than the current 200 hrs instructors. This extra cost in turn would be passed on to the student, meaning the cost of licensing in Canada would increase dramatically. If the cost were to increase, less and less people would be getting their licenses, meaning the industry would switch from a supply of pilots to a demand for pilots, which thus would increase salaries.
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Frosty wrote:Just had a thought:

Why not increase Class IV instructor requirements to 1500 hrs and an ATPL? This would do two things:

1) Increase safety - The instructors would all have industry and flying experience, allowing them to pass on their knowledge and skills to their students.

2) Increase salary across the industry - The instructors with 1500 hrs would want higher pay than the current 200 hrs instructors. This extra cost in turn would be passed on to the student, meaning the cost of licensing in Canada would increase dramatically. If the cost were to increase, less and less people would be getting their licenses, meaning the industry would switch from a supply of pilots to a demand for pilots, which thus would increase salaries.
Your idea would also annihilate general aviation as we know it. While I'm sure TC would love this scheme, since there would no longer be any private flying in this country. All it would really mean is that flight training would move somewhere that there is less restrictive means to do so. By increasing training costs doesn't equal pilots not taking jobs for peanuts. CPL holders are already paying into the 50-80 thousand dollar mark to get trained and taking jobs that paying the 20-30 thousand per year. You would merely have Commercial pilots working a lot longer to pay off their debts.
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by coreydotcom »

Wow... is being a pilot that fun?

At 21 years old, after completing my accounting degree, I worked as an auditor for $35k. I found the pay sucked for the hours we worked. Never less than 40 CHARGEABLE hours, often more like 50-60.

Oh yeah, I paid about, hum, let me calculate now, for my "license" (Bachelor of Commerce + CA fees):
- Tuition - $1200 / semester x 6 = $7200
- Books - about $400/ semester x 6 = $2400
- All CA fees reimbursed by my firm.

So less than $10k. And my first job paid $35k (and pay more than doubled in 2 years). Oh yeah, with all that insurance and RRSPs and perks and bla bla....

How much to go from 0 to CPL right now? 40 - 60k ? I don't know... to get a job that pays $24k? Is it really that fun???? that much fun???? I fly privately, and it's great fun, but so is 1) eating 2) living roach free 3) doing activities 4) sleeping in my bed 5) not being divorced ... all things which seem impossible on $24k a year.

Aviation seems like a disease. Glad I only fly privately.

With all of my time being in a C150 or a SuperCub how much would I accept to fly one of those machines for a living.... $50k. $50k would be enough for me to live in the city I live, comfortably, and afford me all the things I enjoy. And I'm fully aware that those are quite basic machines....

Chasing the dream.... chasing the right seat of Embraer.... for $38k.... c'mon! I'll take my "boring" desk job (which is actually not that boring) and you can fly me back from my vacation (guess i didnt go that far though if it's an embraer lol).

My 2 cents.... be rational.... $38k a year???? c'mon! c'mon! c'mon! after what you went through to get there... c'mon! $38k. But hey, it's my fault to begin with... I only want to pay $600 round trip to CDG. tax in.
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by HighT5 »

coreydotcom wrote:My 2 cents.... be rational.... $38k a year???? c'mon! c'mon! c'mon! after what you went through to get there... c'mon! $38k. But hey, it's my fault to begin with... I only want to pay $600 round trip to CDG. tax in.
You got it all wrong. Money doesn't buy happiness, strutting around the terminal in a pilot uniform does.
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by ant_321 »

$50 000 a year to start. You can make that much shoveling crap into the wind these days so why not flying a plane?
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by Cat Driver »

The reason you can not make that much flying a plane is because there are far to many pilots who will gladly work for far less.

Therefore it stands to reason that the occupation attracts to many people with poor self worth, and the qualification process is so low they have no problem getting licensed.
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Re: Pilot pay

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Cat Driver wrote: Therefore it stands to reason that the occupation attracts to many people with poor self worth, and the qualification process is so low they have no problem getting licensed.
Not necessarily, it certainly attracts a lot of people who have a high opinion of themselves, but you're probably right in that it attracts many of low quality. Its one of the few bits of job training one can get with absolutely no qualifications. Even to get into a trade school you need to have a high school diploma of some sort. The large public perception is that pilot is a good paying job and accounts for its high attraction. If the public really knew the truth, things might change and that ice has only just cracked a bit recently. Pilots themselves have done a poor job promoting themselves - a lot of pride involved I suspect. I found somewhere the pilot's lament:

If my job was as easy as my parents think it is,
If I had as much time off as my neighbors think I do,
And I made as much money as my friends think I do,
My job would be perfect.

Isn't far off the mark. Personally I hate explaining what I do for a living to Joe Average out there. There is such a disconnect between the realities of aviation and how the consuming public percieves it. Who here hasn't weathered some rant about how airfares are soooo expensive, or some traveller being inconvinienced by their flight being 20 minutes late? Its sometimes like they think all us pilots have some sort of union that we could bring up their grievances at....
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