What is a pilot really worth?

Colonel Sanders · Post by **Colonel Sanders** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:04 pm

"market value" that's pure BULLSHIT!

Sigh.

TG · Post by TG » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:19 pm

slowstream wrote:I believe that all of those passengers on the Air France flight 447 that crashed into the Atlantic would have preferred someone at the controls who could have recognized an aircraft stall (without being told it was stalling) and they would have been more than willing to pay more for that experience especially after the fact.

Unfortunately I think the AF447 is not the best pilot salary argument. But more a type of licence one (cramming theory versus true practice)

Pilots at Air France are very well paid.

godsrcrazy · Post by **godsrcrazy** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:22 pm

True North wrote:
godsrcrazy wrote:I personally am sick of the attitude that we are just 1 step below God and how many lives we in our hands everyday. I know people hate when they hear this and I will take a beating for saying this but here I go. We hate when people say we are just glorified bus drivers. But we truly are. Yes we have to do medicals twice a year that are tax deductable. Yes we have to train and do PPC’s that we get paid to do.

But face it we all drive car’s and how many times in a day do you have some jack ass that is not paying attention doing things like Talking on their cell, Texting, reading a book or putting on makeup the list goes on and on. Some how these bus drivers that move millions of people per day do it with out crashing and killing people on a daily basis. They accomplish this with minimal training working longer hours more days for a pile less pay. Yes I know none of them spent 30 to $40,000.00 getting a pilots license. Maybe after you earn $40,000.00 more then a bus driver you should have your wages rolled back to what a bus driver makes. There are a lot of people out there that work double the hours we do for less then half the pay. Do I want to make bus driver wages NOT but let’s be just slightly realistic about what we are truly worth?

Let name calling and the fire works begin
Okay, I'll start.

You're an idiot.

I've driven a bus and I've flown airplanes. You have obviously done neither.

Then maybe you can tell me what it is that has 2 wings and 2 big engines that produce just over 27,000 lbs. I thought it was called an airplane but then again being an idiot what would i know. Maybe you should go back to driving bus and get a little reality check. Your right i never drove a bus i did drive long haul trucking before i went into flying. Of course those were the day's before having to fill out log books. dart as holes texting and all the other BS that goes with it these day's.

True North · Post by **True North** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:31 pm

godsrcrazy wrote:Then maybe you can tell me what it is that has 2 wings and 2 big engines that produce just over 27,000 lbs. I thought it was called an airplane but then again being an idiot what would i know.

Evidently not much.

Your post is so assinine it's not worth debating.

TheSuit · Post by **TheSuit** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:55 pm

slowstream wrote:Its a complex question and therefore requires a complex answer first off.

What's complex about it? As many posters have already pointed out: something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. This applies to selling your house as well as selling your services as a pilot.

Customers want the highest quality and cheapest prices, and management/owners won't pay you (or anyone else) more than they have to. It's not personal, it's business. Don't get all emotional about it.

Odysseus · Post by **Odysseus** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:56 pm

Would you put your wife, daughter or mother on a plane knowing that both pilots were 200hr CPLs, getting paid minimum wage? I don't care what a bus driver makes, or a dentist or even a CEO for that matter. I don't know many pilots asking for crazy amounts of money, most of the pilots I know make less than 80k, and only a few ever make more than 150k. We just want to earn a decent living, enjoy our work and afford to retire a few years before we die.

I guess I'm a bit old school. I still think flying an airplane is a big deal, because it's a big responsibility. While some may be happy with trainning to standard, rewritting their ATP exam five times, buying their PPCs and flying for free, I am not. It degrades our profession. In my opinion, the standards are now too low, anybody, given enough money and time, can become a pilot. We have all seen examples of this, individuals who should not be flying but manage to slip through the cracks of regulatory oversight. That's what happened in Buffalo on Colgan 3407.

For those pilots who don't think flying is a big deal, that we are just glorified bus drivers and we don't deserve what little money our corporate overlords are generous enough to spare us; please, quit. Go drive a bus, or do whatever you wish. Chances are you aren't a good pilot anyways, since you don't give a sh#t about your work.

If the CEOs of this world and their politician lap dogs have their way, our profession will continue to be degraded and our conditions will continue to erode; a pilots worth will become less and less. Despite what they say, CEOs don't care about safety, they care about profits for their precious shareholders. If we are indeed just a comodity, to be bought and sold at fair market value according to supply and demand, we need to become a rare, valuable commodity. Part of that has to do with fixing the regulations which govern our profession, and part of that has to do with the way we act as a professional group.

Colonel Sanders · Post by **Colonel Sanders** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:40 pm

Would you put your wife, daughter or mother on a plane knowing that both pilots were 200hr CPLs, getting paid minimum wage?

I think you're pretty well describing the regional airline industry in the USA, which I suspect your family travels on.

The kids flying the Colgate dash-8 that crashed in Buffalo could probably have earned more money at McDonalds.

However, it isn't always about the money. As someone else pointed out, the pilots of Air France that crashed the 380 were paid very well, and spent 3 minutes stalled with a 10,000 fpm rate of descent.

Colonel Sanders · Post by **Colonel Sanders** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:49 pm

If we are indeed just a comodity, to be bought and sold at fair market value according to supply and demand, we need to become a rare, valuable commodity

I've been saying for years that pilots don't need a college, or association.

Pilots need a cartel, to fix the price of the pilot commodity. Ever heard of OPEC?

Odysseus · Post by **Odysseus** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:10 pm

Colonel Sanders wrote:
Would you put your wife, daughter or mother on a plane knowing that both pilots were 200hr CPLs, getting paid minimum wage?
I think you're pretty well describing the regional airline industry in the USA, which I suspect your family travels on.

The kids flying the Colgate dash-8 that crashed in Buffalo could probably have earned more money at McDonalds.

However, it isn't always about the money. As someone else pointed out, the pilots of Air France that crashed the 380 were paid very well, and spent 3 minutes stalled with a 10,000 fpm rate of descent.

I told my familly to stay off US regionals long ago, and Air France too for that matter... My familly does not travel very much, and they usually use either the national carrier or my own airline.

I don't know of Air France crashing an Airbus 380, you must be refering to AF 447, a 330 that stalled and crashed over the Atlantic. Both those crashes demonstrate problems facing our industry and profession: pilot training and working conditions. We need to improve both.

I don't want the industry in Canada to become a farce like it has in the US, unfortunately it's where we are headed if we don't do something.

Nark · Post by **Nark** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:27 pm

You do realize when you purchase a ticket on any of the mainlines here in the US you have 0 zero choice on who is actually flying that segment. Granted, if you're flying to Hong Kong, it's not going to be on an RJ.

By your same logic, anyone flying a Navajo, king air etc up north is twice as deadly as the regionals here in the US. Jazz, porter Westwind pilots are hacks too? Pull your head out of your ass.

What has Canada done to change duty and flight times for its 704/5 operators?
Have a look at what the FAA just changed to ours. Also, requiring 1500hrs (ATP) as minimums for FOs.

Yep, we sure are moving backwards down here.
Your ignorance is doing more disservice to this industry than any regional pilot I've ever met.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:34 pm

Sometimes I feel compelled to comment in these circular arguments.

Sully is the perfect example of what all pilots flying big airliners should be.

Having flown most every device man has created from biplanes to the fly by wire magic machines I do believe I am qualified to offer a few suggestions......

.......so how do we keep producing more Sully's?

To be an airline pilot trainee you first should have learned to fly in a Cub off a grass field and then went on to accurately fly something like a simple Super Decathlon to a standard what would allow you to convince people like me you have the foundation to begin training in the high tech world of modern computerized airliners......I don't care if you can pass a written exam of any sort.

My concern is " CAN YOU FLY AN AIRPLANE?

Once on line and qualified to command a large airliner you are worth at least $150,000 per year.

Now all you kids go back to bickering amongst yourself s.

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:49 pm

Do I want to make bus driver wages NOT but let’s be just slightly realistic about what we are truly worth?

Many FO's would LOVE to make what a bus driver makes

Ned Ryerson · Post by **Ned Ryerson** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:07 pm

We're comparing pilots to bus drivers. A city bus is worth around a half million and a 737 about 56 million. Do you think we should be compensated for the extra responsibility?
I don't understand the parallel, other than we both have passengers.

Someone brought up military pilots making around 100k, is that tax free?

Cat, do you consider situational awareness and decision making as important as aircraft handling skills?
I think you can train most pilots to a proficient handling level given the time.

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:21 pm

Military Personnel pay all the same taxes, CPP, EI, etc. That civilians do. The pilots pay scale is the same as any other officer (plus a slight aircrew bonus)

2LT $43,738
LT $48,072
Capt $75,504
Maj $107,616
Lt. Col $114,768

Captain is the working rank for officers (last guaranteed promotion) most pilots will remain at Captain (usually a promotion to Major and above severely limits or ends your flying days) which maxes out after 11 years (takes roughly 5 to make Captain on average) at $106,488

All numbers are gross monthly salary multiplied by 12 months.

(also a city bus driver takes a 6 week training course and makes roughly what a 2LT makes)

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:46 pm

Cat, do you consider situational awareness and decision making as important as aircraft handling skills?

That is a good question, so let me answer it this way.

Would you want to fly with a pilot who had the best decision making skills on earth, but said pilot has poor aircraft handling skills?

Base flying skills are like a house, the foundation is what supports the rest of the house.

I think you can train most pilots to a proficient handling level given the time.

Allow me to make two comments.......

No you can't, there are a percentage of pilots out there that no matter how much you train them they just do not have the motor skills to be really proficient.

And....

The training industry as it exists in Canada has an over abundance of instructors who are barely past the student stage then self' s.

See my concern?

Carrier · Post by **Carrier** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:32 pm

Read this article and then decide what competent pilots might be worth! Hint: you might get a clue from Cat Driver's earlier post above.

The tragedy of Flight KQ507: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... KQ507.html

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:41 pm

If piots are worth so much, why are so many of you willing to work for less than $24000 a year?
How many bus drivers would work for $1000 a month and help to clean the bus when they are not working .."for experience?"
As long as there is a big supply of these types of pilots, they are going to fill the seats in the cockpits.
And our government sponsored colleges are trying their best to make sure that situation continues.

And, just as the FE went the way of the dinasauer, the FO is soon not going to have to know how to fly at all....soon? Well, lets look at the MCPL and think about where it is going to go.

As to the sully examples...Funny no one ever uses examples where incompetent pilots flew a perfectly good aircraft into the ground.. Or even the similar examples to Sully's where things did not work out right and people died.

Single pilot/RP are the future. Deals well with the fatigue issues. Guy in India can fly the night flights in the US so he can work daytime hours.
As the colonel pointed out, guess what the pilots on the regional jet are making, when you put your family on them?

The truth is all the new aspiring pilots buy into the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow , and are willing to whore themselves out because 12 guys are standing in line behind them.. Elimiate those 12 guys and you will see pilot wages go up.

Otherwise, pilots seem to be worth what they are actually being paid, not what they are worth in their minds....

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:44 pm

By the way......

......seeing as I have poked my head above the weeds again and am here giving my thoughts to all you nice people out there here is another one.

I am not a pro nor anti union guy but on the Air Canada debacle I support the pilots and am appalled at the actions of the government in this issue.

There.....

If Air Canada implodes we all lose.

Colonel Sanders · Post by **Colonel Sanders** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:17 pm

Rather than pretending that the laws of economics don't
exist, pilots need to form a

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartel

to drive up the price of the commodity.

Who do you think sets the price of oil?

Carrier · Post by **Carrier** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:50 pm

Quote: "Funny no one ever uses examples where incompetent pilots flew a perfectly good aircraft into the ground."

Did you not read my post immediately above yours? Take a look at the Telegraph article and note the comments about the two pilots!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... KQ507.html

There can hardly be a better (?) example of two incompetent pilots flying a perfectly good (six months old Boeing 737-800) into the ground, killing 114 in the process. The last two paragraphs state:

"At the conclusion of the inquest, coroner Stuart Fisher declined to return a verdict of “accidental death”, choosing instead a narrative verdict, which allowed him to highlight the cockpit failings and to call for action against the Cameroon authorities for failing to secure the crash site. But, despite the cathartic nature of the inquest, finding that an avoidable series of events led to Anthony’s death brought little consolation.
If anything, it provided a disturbing insight into the human fallibility that can override the most rigorous safety procedures, and highlighted the degree of trust we place in the cockpit crew every time we board an aeroplane."

Note the last part of the last sentence above. Understand that and the reasons for the coroner's verdict and you will then begin to understand the true worth of competent pilots.

....... · Post by **.......** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:58 pm

godsrcrazy wrote:We hate when people say we are just glorified bus drivers. But we truly are.

You gotta be kidding, right?

No disrespect to bus drivers, they do a great job, but I have yet to meet one that, apart from the medical and PPC concerns you mention, has to work with a ManOps, SOP, FCOM, AFM, MEL, CARS, FCTM, SIDs, STARs, W&B, Dangerous Goods Transport, Reclear, De-Icing concerns, MNPS, RVSM, Critical Terrain Scenarios, COMM FAIL procedures, Memory Items, Limitations, Contaminated runway performances, Min Fuel, diversions, CATII/III, 600RVR T/Os, and so on and so forth...

and who has to stay current on all of these...

Glorified bus driver? Gimme a break

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:23 pm

to bus drivers, they do a great job, but I have yet to meet one that, apart from the medical and PPC concerns you mention, has to work with a ManOps, SOP, FCOM, AFM, MEL, CARS, FCTM, SIDs, STARs, W&B, Dangerous Goods Transport, Reclear, De-Icing concerns, MNPS, RVSM, Critical Terrain Scenarios, COMM FAIL procedures, Memory Items, Limitations, Contaminated runway performances, Min Fuel, diversions, CATII/III, 600RVR T/Os, and so on

That list looks real impressive.....

........the truth is anyone with enough education to read and write can master all that stuff with no problem...

Contaminated runway?????

WTF is so difficult about understanding that? If it is wet or snow covered or ice it will take longer to get stopped what is the big deal?

....... · Post by **.......** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:34 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
That lost looks real impressive.....

........the truth is anyone with enough education to read and write can master all the stuff with no problem...

Of course they can, that's not the point I was trying to make... But somehow I think you know that.

I might agree with the "glorified bus driver" denomination if all I had to do when I get to work is "turn the key", and press on the pedal to get my 340 pax to their destination...

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:41 pm

No problem sky lounger, I understand where you are coming from, I just wanted to put the subject in it's most simple form.

You wouldn't believe some of the talent I met in the advanced flight training business, thank God we have the technology to make smart airplanes.

Meatservo · Post by **Meatservo** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:55 pm

Does anyone here know how to brew a really good imperial stout using extracts? Or should I learn how to do a mash with whole malts to do a proper brew? I'm worried if I use all dark malts there won't be sufficient enzyme activity in the mash to convert all the starches.

The reason I'm asking is, you guys are all kicking a dead horse, so I'm trying to change the subject. Frankly, I agree with Cat, except for one thing. I think the written exams are important, but only if they were used as a weeding-out tool. If you fail a Canadian ATPL exam, you should never be allowed to pilot an airliner ever. It's not a matter of whether you have an aptitude for the "book larnin' ", it's the simple fact that a teenage girl who has watched the whole first season of "Arctic Air" should have been able to pick up enough to pass a Canadian ATPL. They're pathetic. Please, no hate-mail from those of you who failed one. I'll just make fun of you.

Also, being able to make good beer is a far more important skill than being able to fly. I'm sorry if this is a "junk" post. It's just that I find you guys depressing. Especially "godzrcrazy" (although I do agree with his anti-text-messaging attitude). It's OK to be humble, but for god's sake you don't have to hate yourself. Jeez.

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