AVEOS closes the doors

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YQLRookie
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by YQLRookie »

First of all, good luck to everybody laid off. I hope everyone of you 2400 find new employment.
I just have a few questions on the whole situation.
-An article I read states that 15 aircraft are stuck in those hangars, some without landing gear. What is Air Canada's plan to get those aircraft out? I assume that there are few or no other facilities at those airports to take care of such heavy work. For the rest of the fleet, who will do the maintenance now? For the narrowbody aircraft, could this work by contracted out to airlines like Delta or United with large similar fleets to AC, and the widebody work to Asia or Europe?
-Also, if I'm not mistaken there is a big AC hangar in YYC, is that operated by Aveos?
-Aveos do not do Jazz's maintenance, correct?
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teacher
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by teacher »

I believe at Jazz we do our own heavy maintenance.
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Diadem
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by Diadem »

ruddersup? wrote:Sure is easy to jump all over the company. It's time to get rid of Unions IMHO.
Would you like to substantiate that claim? Do you have any evidence that the unions, or the union members' exorbitant wages, are responsible for the fiscal insolvency of the company? Based on news reports from a week ago this has much more to do with Air Canada outsourcing maintenance to China, and based on news reports from today it's almost entirely to do with Air Canada not paying their bills.
It sure looks like AC is digging itself a lot of holes, and this time there were some unintended repercussions. Maybe the public and the government will start to realize that the problems are more systemic than just overpaid pilots. Rovinescu made this bed, and he'd better be able to lie in it.
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gianthammer
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by gianthammer »

Unfortunately this has been years in the making, this just may be an opurtune time for AC to play some tricks. How much does a crew of guys off the street in El Salvador cost compared to a crew of skilled Canadian Profesionals? I'm afraid this may be the beginning of darker time to come for Canadian AMO's


From Aveos website;

"Our new identity, Aveos, is an important step in our evolution as an independent and global player in the MRO marketplace. The main attributes of our new brand are: dependability, expertise, seamlessness and openness. These build on our tradition of excellence and dedication to quality and safety and act as the cornerstone of our strategy to be the integrated solutions provider of choice to the customers we serve. A true partner in performance — from the ground up.

Today, we are the premier independent, nose-to-tail MRO (maintenance, repair and overhaul) provider in the Americas. With our affiliate Aeroman, Latin America’s top MRO provider, and our strategic partnerships, we offer a comprehensive range of customizable services across five facilities located in Canada and El Salvador."
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WileyCoyote
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by WileyCoyote »

Yeah, where's everyone's unions now? People need to learn to stand up and pull their heads out of the sand. There's always signs when companies start falling apart. Quit thinking unions are doing the best for you, because they are not. Start talking to the people that actually write your paycheck.
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proper
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by proper »

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... e=bigimage

Hell in a toolbox...err I mean handbasket. You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Monkeys and aviation don't mix well.
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Rockie
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by Rockie »

MONTREAL, March 19, 2012 /CNW Telbec/ - Following the filing by Aveos Fleet Performance for insolvency protection before the Superior Court of Quebec under the CCAA earlier today, Air Canada has extended to Aveos, through its Court appointed Monitor, FTI Consulting Canada, a $15 million Debtor-in-Possession (DIP) financing, which it will also file on the court record before the presiding judge. The DIP financing, which is substantially similar to an offer extended by Air Canada over the weekend, is intended to assist in stabilizing Aveos for the benefit of its stakeholders and employees, so that it can proceed with a more orderly restructuring. This stabilization should permit Aveos to reopen certain of its facilities and recall certain of its employees, which should in turn allow Air Canada to induct some additional maintenance work with greater confidence over the coming days and weeks. In addition to approval by Aveos, the DIP financing is subject to the approval of the Court.

What this really means is that Air Canada will give AVEOS approximately 1/4 of what it owes them to keep them running just long enough to finish work on the Air Canada aircraft currently in their hanger, and you can be sure AC insisted all money go to completing their planes plus other less than generous conditions.

Once the work on Air Canada's planes is finished...so is AVEOS.

AVEOS knows that and has thrown AC's proposal back in their face with a big "NO THANKS", and has stated that if Air Canada paid the $60 million it owes them none of this would be necessary.

$60 million is a lot of money. But it's still $20 million less than they paid Robert Milton to create this mess in the first place.
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YCL Boy
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by YCL Boy »

What's the story with the pension plan disappearing ???
Some of these employees worked at AC for years then were forced to transfer over to AVEOS, if not it was considered a resignation so they would loose their pension plan ?? now AVEOS goes under because AC does not pay the bills and I'm hearing their Pension Plan is gone. IS THAT RIGHT ???

BTW: The employees will have their personnel tools back shortly.
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wallypilot
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by wallypilot »

Since AC owes Aveos money, why can't AVEOS call in it's credit extended to AC and force it into CCAA filing? This makes no sense to me that company A owes company B money, company A has the $80 million available, yet it is company B that ends up hooped. Aveos should have called in these bills weeks ago to avoid this. I'm sure there's a reason why they didn't and it would be interesting to hear what it is. Maybe the ones in charge at the top are buddies, and AVEOS is trying to dispose of it's higher cost unionized operations without having to pay any severance, etc? Pure conjecture, I'm just sayin', though.
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by Expat »

Wally,

You are probably right. Difficult to prove, but a brilliant plot! AC was being turned around by a specialist. He knew all the tricks. He used them, and turned AC around.
Welcome to the new business world. :shock:
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ruddersup?
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by ruddersup? »

Diadem,
You have your head in the sand? It is now a world market and the unions are holding us back from being competitive, like it or not/good or bad, we have to live with it , adjust now or worse times ahead. IMHO
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Rockie
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by Rockie »

ruddersup? wrote:Diadem,
You have your head in the sand? It is now a world market and the unions are holding us back from being competitive, like it or not/good or bad, we have to live with it , adjust now or worse times ahead. IMHO
Does managerial incompetence ever have anything to do with being uncompetitive in your world.
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ruddersup?
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by ruddersup? »

Rockie,
Well of course. The question is rhetorical. Go to the shareholders meeting and scream and request answers, it could be done.
Or sit back and say they are ***holes. Hmmmmmmmm.
I'm looking at the big picture and there isn't a union out they that cares if they are competitive on the world stage It's all about greed- management, unions, employees but the sobering fact now is the rest of the world is entering the game. Become self employed like I've done for almost 40 years, then strangely enough your whole perspective will change. IMHO
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Rockie
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by Rockie »

ruddersup? wrote:I'm looking at the big picture and there isn't a union out they that cares if they are competitive on the world stage
There's one staring you in the face on these pages. Air Canada pilots are smart enough to know that the customer pays their wages despite what you might think, and we have put ourselves at risk with this company in order to not alienate them. Air Canada senior executives know that and are taking advantage of it through misleading press releases and selective omissions of relevant information. People like you are only too eager to swallow it.
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JayVee
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by JayVee »

ruddersup? wrote:I had a friend who worked on the Arrow project and when A.V.Roe shut down it was bedlam. The employees got their stuff and everything else that was not nailed down.
Sure is easy to jump all over the company. It's time to get rid of Unions IMHO.
Not sure of the relevence of A.V.Roe closing; kind of a different story, and didn't that happen 50 or 55 years ago?

I suppose non-union workers wouldn't be concerned about their tools, eh? Certainly not like those trouble-makin union bastards.
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by MZUNGO »

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fleet16b
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by fleet16b »

BGH wrote:I have many friends whose tools ended up behind closed doors after a company failure.Each was asked to set up a pick up time & then let someone associated with the reciever have a look inside the box to ensure that none of the ex companies tools were in your possession.You were then assisted with the removal of your tools & signed a release saying that you did indeed recieve your tools.
Bit of a hassle,but ended well.
Daryl
I work for one of the biggest Aircraft Engine Manufacturers in the world .
The above quote describes exactly how we deal with employee tools/personal items when they quit , get laid off or are dismissed.
In fact if the employee has no way of transporting their tool box home,once the box contents are inspected as above, we shrink wrap the toolbox and will ship it to their home.
It would be quite suprising if AVEOS was not doing the same thing . Its a fairly standard procedure in the industry
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Diadem
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by Diadem »

ruddersup? wrote:Diadem,
You have your head in the sand? It is now a world market and the unions are holding us back from being competitive, like it or not/good or bad, we have to live with it , adjust now or worse times ahead. IMHO
I might ask you the same question. Did you not read the reports, including the ones in this thread, showing that Air Canada has been withholding both work and payments from Aveos? Now, do you have ANY proof that the wages paid to the employees brought about the insolvency rather than Air Canada violating their contract, or are you just union-bashing? As for being competitive, it's pretty hard for anyone, unionized or not, to compete with AMEs overseas who make $2/hr. Or are you saying that we should drop the minimum wage to match third-world pay scales and all thank whatever deities we pray to that we still get to go to work for such wonderful employers, even at 10% of what we used to make?
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by Expat »

Today's news:

http://www.windsorstar.com/news/Windsor ... story.html


...The Aveos decision has nothing to do with less demand for MRO work — in fact the opposite is the case, said Marcel St-Jean, president of Local 1751 of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, which represents 1,800 Aveos employees in Montreal. He said non-unionized operations like Premier were already taking work away from Aveos, which according to court documents had abysmal relations with its main client...

Read more: http://www.windsorstar.com/news/Windsor ... z1pmJFuvwf
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CID
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by CID »

Diadem,

It's well known that with all things considered, non-union shops are generally more efficient and profitable than union shops. That goes for any industry.

We also know that labour is expensive in Canada compared to many other countries in the world where aerospace maintenance is available.

That doesn't mean that Canadian companies can't compete, it just means they have to be innovative when it comes to how they run their companies. In general, aircraft mechanics in Canada are much more technically capable than their South American counterparts. Ask any airline just how closely their aircraft must be monitored at those facilities to ensure delivery and quality.

An average all-Canadian maintenance crew can cycle a large airliner through a C check MUCH faster than an average "developing world" crew. Unfortunately, the Canadian crews demand a higher wage and if they're unionized, and even higher wage for less productivity.

Talk to the average Aveos worker and ask what they do (tasks) at work each day. If you find one that's honest I think you'll be very surprised.

So I agree with the post that places a great deal of blame on the unions.
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Diadem
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by Diadem »

I'm certainly not defending union practices in general - I'm not a member of one, and never have been - but to place the blame for Aveos's insolvency squarely on the IAMAW is rather absurd. A week before the shutdown the media was reporting on Air Canada transferring work overseas, and between that and unpaid bills Aveos wasn't able to stay in business. I doubt it would matter whether the employees were unionized and making $20/hr or non-unionized and making $15/hr, they didn't have a chance after AC decided to use overseas labour for 1/10 the cost. If anything, I see Aveos shutting down so abruptly with several AC aircraft in the hangars as a parting shot, leaving AC without several of its planes and without the time to set up alternate maintenance before their MRO shut down. If that's the case, I think the decision to liquidate was made as soon as AC decided to outsource, regardless of whether Aveos could have changed their business plan to survive in a different form.
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ruddersup?
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by ruddersup? »

I've heard that the 80 mil. is a short fall of income for Aveos because of the outsourcing by Air Canada down south. I really don't believe that Air Canada owes them 80 mil.
My previous comments are not really directed at Aveos, you guys can speculate all you want on whatever. I'm talking about the country as a whole. Can the unions and down size goverment 15-20 %. The big picture is bleak and if China floats their dollar, hmmmmmm. We have a problem than is only going to get worse, tighten your belts and don't ask too much from your company.
Be really happy if you have a job. And of course if you believe all this then I have a used car in the parking lot I'd like to show you, lol.
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palebird
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by palebird »

Seriously people Air Canada has been outsourcing maintenance of all kinds for years to asia and south/central america. No big surprise there. This has all been part of the grand Milton plan. And no it is not coming back no matter what Quebec says or wants. The Aveos shops were some of the most inefficient around. I know, I used to work there. Left some years ago for bigger and better things. Looks like Aveos got the last laugh on AC by locking up some of their aircraft in a bankruptcy. Could not happen to nicer people.
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by CID »

Diadem,

I don't understand how you can find that concept "absurd". Aveos shut down because their liabilities outstripped their assets far too much because they've been losing money like crazy.

If their workforce made less money and/or were more efficient, not only would they have lost less money, they would have attracted more work from airlines other than Air Canada. And "less money" doesn't have to mean less take-home pay. The Westjet model distributes profit to their employees. This plan makes employees take ownership for the ultimate success of the company. The guaranteed large paychecks at Aveos motivate the average employee to find a cozy place to sleep during the shift.

I mentioned in an earlier post that MROs with Canadian labour can compete. The "premium" example of that is Premier Aviation out of Trois Rivieres. Not only have they operated a successful operation, they are opening a very large new facility in Windsor that can hold a 747 or a couple of 737s. Or even an Airbus or two.

I wouldn't be surprised if they're eyeing the situation in Winnipeg closely. A nice big facility in a city where the operating costs are low is geographically in the middle of the continent. Fill that with some non-union competent (efficient) workers and you really have something.

There's no shortage of MRO work in Canada or operators who would prefer to keep their airplanes in North America. Unfortunately, in Winnipeg there is also no shortage of aerospace workers who haven't actually had to put in an honest day's work in their career at Aveos so if Premier does make a move to Winnipeg, they may have some difficulty finding local "talent".
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Rockie
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Re: AVEOS closes the doors

Post by Rockie »

CID wrote:Unfortunately, in Winnipeg there is also no shortage of aerospace workers who haven't actually had to put in an honest day's work in their career at Aveos
Their career at Aveos?

Aveos has only been around a few years, and most of the people there never wanted to be there in the first place. Perhaps you should read up on AC/ACE history before spinning off on a union rant like that.

If Air Canada management were in the business of managing people instead of money this airline wouldn't have the problems it has. Instead they have Harlan (the goon) Clarke, the absurdly titled Director, Labour Relations attempting to intimidate the pilots by issuing threats of dismissal for getting sick.

Aren't you curious why Westjet is so successful and Air Canada is not? I'll give you a hint. They are infinitely better at managing people.
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