SELF-DESTRUCT -- PRESS

[126.7_STFU]

Unions breed inefficientcy and selfishness and largess..

I guess you haven't been watching managements pay skyrocket for the past decade, despite their lack of performance. All the while, front line staff have seen their pay stagnate.

You want to talk about inefficientcy(sic)? How about the 18 VPs at the executive level. Delta, a much larger entity than Air Canada, has half that number.

Selfishness and largess are covered by the aforementioned executive pay. The CEOs base pay alone has risen 272% between 2003 and 2010 (2011 numbers aren't available yet). Total compensation has risen 855%. And for what? All we hear constantly is about how the front line needs to make more cuts to make the airline competitive, but that never seems to happen for the execs, despite their continued failure in running the airline.

This airline is plagued by a deficit of leadership and it starts right in the CEOs office and trickles down throughout the organization.

Great post. There is no need to retaliate against anyone who verbally demotes anything you stated here because lets be frank : I think it is common sense even though most people don't have it therefore it is not all that common.... but , personal emotions aside, I think it is fair to say we would support these employees in full if we were in their shoes. If management is making millions upon millions and getting nice bonus's for a job well done yet preaching to me that my $140,000 is just unsustainable, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why the environment is such poison. Why does the CEO and his band of little elves take priority over the people who make the airline operate? Why should the workers feel uncomfortable with the fact that they make more than the average Canadian (who is usually being screwed via another sector)? We are not in Stalinist Russia. Why have unions not called for these parasites to step down? These scoundrels make money off the back of a suffering airline and WILL continue to on such a path until the music stops playing. I would be a bit more bipartisan IF these execs took drastic cuts themselves though of course this will never happen. Tough times ahead for you guys. Wish you all the best.

[ywg9]

140000 what about my huge 39500 lol

[crazy_aviator]

Im in 100% agreement of cutting the largess from the upper management, Throughout the company, increase efficiency, take no pay reductions, get together, call up a massive 3 day strike throughout the system, take 1 page ads out in every paper in Canada explaining the truth then SACK every fat assed entitlement junkie there is in the company and fire every low life abuser throughout the ranks ! HOWEVER, Me thinks its not going to happen

[ratherbee]

The junior pilot has the most to lose unless ACPA changes its course quickly. Read Bill C-33. The Company can gut our scope. That's where we are headed in FOA.

I suggest this discussion move elsewhere for obvious reasons.

[JZA]

Speaking as a bottom 500 seniority list AC pilot I can assure you that it is not only senior guys/gals that supported TA1 ... Read and understand the material. Don't be caught up in the mob mentality of the past year that has been fueled with the help of forums and social media.

[rapid602]

I am a complete outsider on this matter. The only interest I have is I know several people at the big airline. But for a company to have such labour unrest in a public form as on the NIGHTLY NATIONAL NEWS (all day everyday), where are all of these people who are responsible for this mess.

The employees care, and thats why they take the actions they have to taken to be heard. We see that nightly on the news. We don't seem to hear the airline apologizing. I hear things like " we hope to be back to 100% by later today"

The public gets to vote with their $$$$ and some seem to think that the need for other travel arrangments have to be made with other carries. (Their Choice)

But, a question, with all of the disruption and lose of customers who are now flying with West Jet and other carriers who may never come back.... With all of that lost revenue and future revenue, would that not have covered the cost of all this and returned the company to some sort of harmony with the employees, management, and most importantly the travelling public who ultimately pay alot of the bills.

I am sure the big airline will not survive, without all of the efforts of the frontline people like pilots, flight attendents, ticket and customer service people, the men and women loading your bags, and even the people pumping the fuel. Keep up your efforts to fight for what you beleive in.

[Johnny Mapleleaf]

It turns out, an attempt is being made to force the MEC to make a wholesale change of negotiation strategy, including abandoning its second negotiating committee and the current proposals. Interesting indeed.

[Norwegianwood]

Tail wagging the dog once again

[Morry Bund]

It looks like Brent Jang is on the ACPA pilots mailing list. It's all out in the open now. The only thing that he didn't publish was the actual survey, and the 27 names attached to the letters. The key is the weight of the initiative, and the consequent impact on the ability of the current MEC to maintain its credibility before the employer, the government, and especially, its own members.

None of these fractures are a healthy indication of good prospects for this union and its members.

[CanadianEh]

Sounds to me like they are trying to beat a dead horse. They should bow out gracefully and let the new ACPA leadership run the show.

I bet this was management's plan all along... make things seem so effed up that even TA 1 looks like a good deal now.

[What About Me?]

TA1 will never be a good deal.

[JZA]

How do you figure "What about me?"

[TheStig]

my guess, the timer has been set for another CCAA filing. All contracts from labour to suppliers will get screwed. This manufactured crisis aided by angry employees will give CR the means to get his plan approved. Hope I'm wrong........

Yes you are wrong

HNL I don't don't believe Teacher is wrong. If you had to sum up CR's resume in two words they wouldn't be "Airline Builder", they would be "Bankruptcy Lawyer". This latest plea from these concernedaircanadapilots is about being scared of CCAA. The unfortunate fact is that Air Canada is likely headed towards CCAA shortly, why would anyone book thier summer travel with this airline right now? Air Canada's cost structure and impending lack of cashflow aren't something ACPA can fix, but it can protect its interests going into CCAA.

This group of 27 didn't engage in interest based bargaining, they engaged in SELF Interest based bargaining, and are still trying to employ fear and divisiveness to achieve their own goals. If you disagree with me maybe you can tell me what part of the "new economic realities" of the airline industry include B777 Captians earning grandfathered rates of $274/Hour while all NewHires are treated to 4 years from $42 - $60/hour while being funneled into a career at a Low Wage Carrier under working conditions still to be determined by Air Canada?

The current elected ACPA leaders have unified the pilot group and are looking use membership feedback to write 1 contract for 1 pilot group. It's going to be a very short petition unless Phil McRackin, and Ben Dover still work at Air Canada.

[Big Pistons Forever]

It looks like Brent Jang is on the ACPA pilots mailing list. It's all out in the open now. The only thing that he didn't publish was the actual survey, and the 27 names attached to the letters. The key is the weight of the initiative, and the consequent impact on the ability of the current MEC to maintain its credibility before the employer, the government, and especially, its own members.

None of these fractures are a healthy indication of good prospects for this union and its members.

No but the "27" have a vested interest in making sure the new TAI doesn't touch their pensions...........

[JZA]

all NewHires are treated to 4 years from $42 - $60/hour

... The actual proposed pay Rates for New hires in the TA1 in 2012 were as follows:

Year 1: $49,800
Year 2: $54,980
Year 3: $63,270
Year 4: $71,560

[Wheels]

Meh....

[DBC]

all NewHires are treated to 4 years from $42 - $60/hour

... The actual proposed pay Rates for New hires in the TA1 in 2012 were as follows:

Year 1: $49,800
Year 2: $54,980
Year 3: $63,270
Year 4: $71,560

Wasn't year 3 and 4 a decrease for some positions though?

[Fanblade]

all NewHires are treated to 4 years from $42 - $60/hour

... The actual proposed pay Rates for New hires in the TA1 in 2012 were as follows:

Year 1: $49,800
Year 2: $54,980
Year 3: $63,270
Year 4: $71,560

Wasn't year 3 and 4 a decrease for some positions though?

This is the perspective of someone hired in the fall of 2010.

Year 1 & 2 are an increase from the present contract. Year 3 & 4 are a decrease from present PG pay rates. It comes out to a zero sum game

[Fanblade]

all NewHires are treated to 4 years from $42 - $60/hour

... The actual proposed pay Rates for New hires in the TA1 in 2012 were as follows:

Year 1: $49,800
Year 2: $54,980
Year 3: $63,270
Year 4: $71,560

Wasn't year 3 and 4 a decrease for some positions though?

This is the perspective of someone hired in the fall of 2010.

Year 1 & 2 are an increase from the present contract. Year 3 & 4 are a decrease from present PG pay rates. It comes out to a zero sum game.

For those who would have attained 320 FO within 2 years it is a substantial pay cut.

I was at the road shows. They sold it as a pay raise referring to the first two years only. I heard comments like "we don't negotiate for the unborn" " yeah New hires are getting thrown under the bus"

Make no mistake about it. These individuals see a need for change. Their objective was to make sure someone else bore that burden.

I can't tell you how repulsed I was when I left the road show.

[JZA]

Yes you are right.

At present the 320 pays a fair bit more if you are able to hold it during years 3 & 4. (in the 80s)

Keep in mind that generally speaking there are not very many guys/gals that can hold the "bus" with less than 4 years seniority...at the moment there are only 16 pilots.

[morefun]

TA1 will never be a good deal.

TA1 may not have been the best deal but it will be better than what we get now

[Fanblade]

Yes you are right.

At present the 320 pays a fair bit more if you are able to hold it during years 3 & 4. (in the 80s)

Keep in mind that generally speaking there are not very many guys/gals that can hold the "bus" with less than 4 years seniority...at the moment there are only 16 pilots.

JZA,

Honestly it is not that I don't see the need for change. I do. But the change must affect everyone equally.

The "concerned pilots" are concerned alright. For them and no one else.

I would never follow anyone of the previous MEC or NC.

They have proven themselves untrustworthy. Now they are back interfering.

[Fanblade]

TA1 will never be a good deal.

TA1 may not have been the best deal but it will be better than what we get now

The present contract with no raise is a better deal for the junior folks.

[Fanblade]

TA1 will never be a good deal.

TA1 may not have been the best deal but it will be better than what we get now

The present contract with no raise is a better deal for the junior folks.

Like I said. After being at the road show for TA1 any new hire following this group is crazy. They don't care about your future.

Good riddance. To bad they didn't get the message when they were recalled.

Perhaps if they had taken their knowledge that the company needed to change but had applied the changes evenly we wouldn't be hear right now.

Because right now it is out of our control. All the present MEC has done is try to correct what they did. Unfortunately the company won't negotiate and with the help of the government doesn't have to.

Thanks cornered pilots. Please no more helping.

[JZA]

Status quo or TA1?

I'll take the TA1 thank you very much. An instantaneous uplift of pay of $23,000 a year before taxes for a person in my seniority range/equipment type and the prospect of quicker advancement and pay increase thanks to ACPA pilots flying any future LCC.

For me...the status quo will mean no raise. And zero fleet growth (at best) will mean I will have no advancement opportunities for years to come.