This is one of the most lame threads I've ever seen on here.
I am a Seneca grad, and it's a terrific program. And you know, being that it's hard work and a little more regimented than a sleepy little flight school, most folks do walk away feeling pretty good about themselves... but lemme tell ya, most of us figured out real quick that a CPL and 200 hours doesn't mean squat, no matter where you got it. (Hell, an ATP and 6000 hours doesn't even mean much these days.) And having said that, as much as I appreciated the program and as great as it was, I've learned just as much (more?) since as I did while there.
Bottom line: the person sitting beside you is shaped by his experience, sure... but people are who they are and a lot of folks are going to be jackasses no matter where they came from. And to a large degree, either your partner can fly or he can't. I've flown with college grads that instructed and were very impressive, and I've flown with dudes that came out of the bush flying seat-of-their-pants that were HORRID... taking one path over the other doesn't guarantee that you're going to be Ace McCool versus Joe Useless.
So all this "I've had F/Os who were Seneca grads and they sucked so much and had such big heads..." WHATEVER. I'm listening here to a whole lot of folks that sound real big on themselves without having worn the jacket with the big "S".
Attention Seneca AFT Graduates!
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
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Jaques Strappe
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I was in Buttonville years ago getting a weather briefing from the FSS specialist when this little snot nose taps me on the shoulder from behind and says......." if you want a good briefing, ask for a Seneca briefing"
I kid you not! I winked at him and asked........" why? do they draw little pictures for you?" Then walked down and fired up the MU-2.
What an idiot!! Unfortunately, like it or not, right or wrong, this is a vast impression of Seneca.
I kid you not! I winked at him and asked........" why? do they draw little pictures for you?" Then walked down and fired up the MU-2.
What an idiot!! Unfortunately, like it or not, right or wrong, this is a vast impression of Seneca.
First of all:
Cat, you're full of sh*t. I don't doubt you've flown with bad FOs, but you're indicating that the only bad ones were Seneca grads. This is, no doubt in my mind whatsoever, an intentionally misleading jab from you towards an institution and a flying program that you really know nothing about. You're from the bush school of thought, and you seem to truly believe that your way is the only way. How sad for you.
Secondly:
Seneca does turn out some bad pilots. Every school does. The sad fact is that there's so much griping about Seneca grads (which has been going on for decades) that every time someone runs into a bad attitude or a stupid move from one of them, it sticks in their mind and they think "those f*cking Seneca grads, man they suck!" Never mind that they've seen the same crap from every other flight school in Canada, it's the Seneca name that sticks. How sad for them.
Third:
Historically, Seneca has been an extremely difficult program to get through. The flying schedule was tight, as I'm sure it still is, and the majority of instructors were Class I or II, many ex-military, with upwards of 10,000 hours under their belts. This made for an extremely strict and regimented program with little or no room for goofing off. They could afford to have extremely high standards because the cost of flying was almost nil, which drew in hundreds of applicants every year. (How does that compare with your local flying club where most of your instructors are Class III or IV, anyone who wants to fly is let in, and the size of your wallet is the only limitation as to how far you go?) In the past, MOST people who entered first year were bounced from the progam by the end of second semester, with more to go by the end of the flying program. This resulted in many embittered "failures" (no offense) roaming the countryside (many going to the Soo -- sorry) trying to get their careers going. This is also, I'm sure, where some of the bad-mouthing of Seneca started. For the lucky ones who were driven enough to actually make it to the end, there was a huge feeling of accomplishment that they were able to finish a program that literally 600+ others who wrote the entrance exam with them were not able to. This pride no doubt was often confused by others as arrogance (in some cases accurately, but in most cases not).
Good pilots are created as a function of their own ability and desire for perfection. They can be trained in any environment. So can assh*le pilots who'll never make it anywhere. But don't tell me that an aviation college is any better or worse than any other flight school. Both have their good points as well as their bad. Which path you take is a function of where you live, what you can afford, and your ability. Ability? This may offend some people, but realistically, there are kids out there who are useless and who would not last a week in any of the aviation colleges or university programs out there, but who WILL eventually get their CPLs at some local flight school, even if it takes them 300+ hours to do it.
Finally:
The original post was made in good faith as an attempt to bring together alumni from Seneca's past. The fact that some of you have used it as yet another opportunity to blast Seneca is pathetic. Where is your "professionalism"? Seriously people, get a f*cking hobby or something. Especially you, Cat. I would have expected better from someone who purports to be a senior member of the Canadian avitation community. What kind of example are you setting? Shame on you.
Cat, you're full of sh*t. I don't doubt you've flown with bad FOs, but you're indicating that the only bad ones were Seneca grads. This is, no doubt in my mind whatsoever, an intentionally misleading jab from you towards an institution and a flying program that you really know nothing about. You're from the bush school of thought, and you seem to truly believe that your way is the only way. How sad for you.
Secondly:
Seneca does turn out some bad pilots. Every school does. The sad fact is that there's so much griping about Seneca grads (which has been going on for decades) that every time someone runs into a bad attitude or a stupid move from one of them, it sticks in their mind and they think "those f*cking Seneca grads, man they suck!" Never mind that they've seen the same crap from every other flight school in Canada, it's the Seneca name that sticks. How sad for them.
Third:
Historically, Seneca has been an extremely difficult program to get through. The flying schedule was tight, as I'm sure it still is, and the majority of instructors were Class I or II, many ex-military, with upwards of 10,000 hours under their belts. This made for an extremely strict and regimented program with little or no room for goofing off. They could afford to have extremely high standards because the cost of flying was almost nil, which drew in hundreds of applicants every year. (How does that compare with your local flying club where most of your instructors are Class III or IV, anyone who wants to fly is let in, and the size of your wallet is the only limitation as to how far you go?) In the past, MOST people who entered first year were bounced from the progam by the end of second semester, with more to go by the end of the flying program. This resulted in many embittered "failures" (no offense) roaming the countryside (many going to the Soo -- sorry) trying to get their careers going. This is also, I'm sure, where some of the bad-mouthing of Seneca started. For the lucky ones who were driven enough to actually make it to the end, there was a huge feeling of accomplishment that they were able to finish a program that literally 600+ others who wrote the entrance exam with them were not able to. This pride no doubt was often confused by others as arrogance (in some cases accurately, but in most cases not).
Good pilots are created as a function of their own ability and desire for perfection. They can be trained in any environment. So can assh*le pilots who'll never make it anywhere. But don't tell me that an aviation college is any better or worse than any other flight school. Both have their good points as well as their bad. Which path you take is a function of where you live, what you can afford, and your ability. Ability? This may offend some people, but realistically, there are kids out there who are useless and who would not last a week in any of the aviation colleges or university programs out there, but who WILL eventually get their CPLs at some local flight school, even if it takes them 300+ hours to do it.
Finally:
The original post was made in good faith as an attempt to bring together alumni from Seneca's past. The fact that some of you have used it as yet another opportunity to blast Seneca is pathetic. Where is your "professionalism"? Seriously people, get a f*cking hobby or something. Especially you, Cat. I would have expected better from someone who purports to be a senior member of the Canadian avitation community. What kind of example are you setting? Shame on you.
It's better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone think you're a fool, than to open it and prove them right.
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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" Cat, you're full of sh*t. I don't doubt you've flown with bad FOs, but you're indicating that the only bad ones were Seneca grads. This is, no doubt in my mind whatsoever, an intentionally misleading jab from you towards an institution and a flying program that you really know nothing about. You're from the bush school of thought, and you seem to truly believe that your way is the only way. How sad for you. "
Flapperons:
Before you slam me and make uninformed assumptions about me and my school of thought I would suggest you go back to college and take a course in reading and comperhension of what was written.
My comments were generic as to which college, nowhere did I mention Seneca in this thread.
And for your information I am in the training program for the 737-800 and if that is bush, well then I guess I'm in the bush school of thought.
And this:
" Especially you, Cat. I would have expected better from someone who purports to be a senior member of the Canadian avitation community. What kind of example are you setting? Shame on you. "
Maybe you had better give yourself a reality check flapperons and have a good look at your own smug attitude.
Cat
Flapperons:
Before you slam me and make uninformed assumptions about me and my school of thought I would suggest you go back to college and take a course in reading and comperhension of what was written.
My comments were generic as to which college, nowhere did I mention Seneca in this thread.
And for your information I am in the training program for the 737-800 and if that is bush, well then I guess I'm in the bush school of thought.
And this:
" Especially you, Cat. I would have expected better from someone who purports to be a senior member of the Canadian avitation community. What kind of example are you setting? Shame on you. "
Maybe you had better give yourself a reality check flapperons and have a good look at your own smug attitude.
Cat
Last edited by Cat Driver on Sun May 22, 2005 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Jaques Strappe
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Flaperons
Yes, every school turns out its fair share of idiots just as every company has its' fair share of idiots.
I don't think anyone is saying that Seneca only turns out idiots. On the contrary, I believe you need to be very disciplined academically ( at least be able to spell
) to get through the course. I doubt I would make it to be honest with you.
Where the problem lies, or where Seneca gets it's reputation is in the attitudes of its' graduates more than their ability. There is very little humility. Quite frankly, humility, in my books is on the top three list of qualities I would want in a pilot. I would rather fly with someone who makes mistakes, realizes it, does something about it and can laugh at themselves as opposed to someone, who in their mind, can do no wrong and try to teach the 10,000 hr+ Captain a thing or two!
I think that is probably what Cat Driver was eluding to and I doubt he is alone in that opinion. This is not meant as a slight but an honest observation.
Yes, every school turns out its fair share of idiots just as every company has its' fair share of idiots.
I don't think anyone is saying that Seneca only turns out idiots. On the contrary, I believe you need to be very disciplined academically ( at least be able to spell
) to get through the course. I doubt I would make it to be honest with you.Where the problem lies, or where Seneca gets it's reputation is in the attitudes of its' graduates more than their ability. There is very little humility. Quite frankly, humility, in my books is on the top three list of qualities I would want in a pilot. I would rather fly with someone who makes mistakes, realizes it, does something about it and can laugh at themselves as opposed to someone, who in their mind, can do no wrong and try to teach the 10,000 hr+ Captain a thing or two!
I think that is probably what Cat Driver was eluding to and I doubt he is alone in that opinion. This is not meant as a slight but an honest observation.
attitude
Sorry things didn't work out too well for some of you folks....
I owe much of my career (DC8 Oiler to A340 Capt.) to the people that set up the program at Seneca. I met some lifelong friends there as well. Must say, I would do the same thing again.
Cheers
I owe much of my career (DC8 Oiler to A340 Capt.) to the people that set up the program at Seneca. I met some lifelong friends there as well. Must say, I would do the same thing again.
Cheers
No kidding,
what a ridiculous thread. I have known many excellent, top-o-the-line Seneca people and a couple of idiots. About the same as the rest of the business.
Amazing that you guys have come to believe that the program there has changed people into something else. Pilots come in a fairly uniform demographic all over. I have found that you get either the best quality people you could ever know or you get totally egotistical, self-centred pantloads. I rarely see people in the middle. This demographic holds true for Seneca grads...and, oh yeah, I know many of them...I am one!
what a ridiculous thread. I have known many excellent, top-o-the-line Seneca people and a couple of idiots. About the same as the rest of the business.
Amazing that you guys have come to believe that the program there has changed people into something else. Pilots come in a fairly uniform demographic all over. I have found that you get either the best quality people you could ever know or you get totally egotistical, self-centred pantloads. I rarely see people in the middle. This demographic holds true for Seneca grads...and, oh yeah, I know many of them...I am one!
Last edited by disco on Tue May 31, 2005 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Wow - mention Seneca and peoples blood starts to boil eh ? First of all - as previously mentioned this post was to recruit alumni so why all the hostility ?
Secondly, like myself and a lot of my class, I went to Seneca because at the time I couldn't afford to pay for all the flight training privately and needed an alternate route. Thank god for Seneca, Sault, and Confed who have subsidized programs that provide this option for people who don't have unlimited financial supply.
What about the people who go to Seneca because for the time being they want to save money by living at home, or want to stay with their family as long as they can, or don't have a car so they use public transportation.
Did anyone think of these ??? For a lot of people its one of very few places and oppurtunities to pursue ones dream of flying within Toronto. Yeah - like I'm going to pick my school based on a cool jacket ! Open your minds people. There are idiots in every flight school, college, and company across Canada. Hi JBaron !
Secondly, like myself and a lot of my class, I went to Seneca because at the time I couldn't afford to pay for all the flight training privately and needed an alternate route. Thank god for Seneca, Sault, and Confed who have subsidized programs that provide this option for people who don't have unlimited financial supply.
What about the people who go to Seneca because for the time being they want to save money by living at home, or want to stay with their family as long as they can, or don't have a car so they use public transportation.
Did anyone think of these ??? For a lot of people its one of very few places and oppurtunities to pursue ones dream of flying within Toronto. Yeah - like I'm going to pick my school based on a cool jacket ! Open your minds people. There are idiots in every flight school, college, and company across Canada. Hi JBaron !
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av8tor_assrope
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haha
i couldn't resist this one.........$ 30 000+++ for a COMMUNITY COLLEGE degree(smirk/giggle/laugh)..or i mean jacket...... is bullshit. they should have kept the old program. besides.....u leave the province of ontario and you could pretty much wipe ur ass with that COMMUNITY COLLEGE degree. and for the joe blow's flight school haters.......it doesn't matter where you train. even astronauts f@ck up!!!!
I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers...
gelbisch i'm truly sorry about saying the majority of seneca grads quit flying after a couple of years ....i'll retract that statement. It should have said "the majority of Seneca grads whom i personally know because i went there gave up flying after a couple of years" Some are ATC's some went back to University some are designing computer games some are selling furniture. Again i'm truly sorry if i offended you.
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scotothedoublet
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Isn't $30 000 still a pretty good price for CPL MIFR? I still think a 200 hr flying monkey is a 200 hr flying monkey, but IMO, down the road you're better off with the piece of paper than without (sh*t stains and all).i couldn't resist this one.........$ 30 000+++ for a COMMUNITY COLLEGE degree(smirk/giggle/laugh)..or i mean jacket...... is bullshit. they should have kept the old program. besides.....u leave the province of ontario and you could pretty much wipe ur ass with that COMMUNITY COLLEGE degree.
No worries. Some do give it up--I don't argue that--but I only know of one in my class. Aside from the waste of taxpayer's money (pretty standard for Canada, however), the true shame to my mind is the wasted spot--a licence that another, keener person might have actually done something with.testpilot wrote:Again i'm truly sorry if i offended you.
Out of the 38 that made it into the flying portion of the program in my class, 27 graduated and I'd guess only 12-15 are still flying now (6 yrs later). Sad waste of training that in my view is partially the fault of the program and its lack of career guidance given to students. Partly also because they were too lazy to go out and look really hard, and partly because some are pursuing additional education.
More real world experiences from RECENT grads is needed, desperately. And not only for the graduating class- for first year students ESPECIALLY (prior to starting flying).
More real world experiences from RECENT grads is needed, desperately. And not only for the graduating class- for first year students ESPECIALLY (prior to starting flying).
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Navajo-dude
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unregistered
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I have to say I avoid hiring the college grads, unfortunately. Had bad luck with them in the past as I know others have as well.
Definately lacking in the airmanship dept . . . although they sure can spell good!
If you ask me Seneca and Sault should sell there fancy Bonanza's and Zlins, and buy a couple of Beavers and Beech 18's . . . that'll learn 'em!
Definately lacking in the airmanship dept . . . although they sure can spell good!
If you ask me Seneca and Sault should sell there fancy Bonanza's and Zlins, and buy a couple of Beavers and Beech 18's . . . that'll learn 'em!
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unregistered
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That's a good point.
And the answer is that I would certainly consider them, with a good reference from a previous employer.
Thanks for the clarification, admitedly, the experiences I've had have been with lower time and/or instructor types. Also, I would never consider college grads "tainted", but I am one who has been burned by one type, and never the other.
And the answer is that I would certainly consider them, with a good reference from a previous employer.
Thanks for the clarification, admitedly, the experiences I've had have been with lower time and/or instructor types. Also, I would never consider college grads "tainted", but I am one who has been burned by one type, and never the other.
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Herc Driver
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It's just really sad, that an aviation forum degenerates to such a pathetic level. I did the Seneca thing, had a great time and learned alot. Flying is a great job, next time you are flying along just look outside, take a peak at the wings and remeber how cool it really is to fly. I don't care where you come from, as stated earlier it is all about the attitude. I fly the C-130 in the CF as an aircarft commander and I fly with people from all backgrounds, zero flying experience, Seneca, Sault, Confederation, RMC, Mount Royal, FBO schools. The skill demonstrated all boils down to attitude and motivation. It's human nature that some people are just born as idiots and it doesn't really matter where you are from. Give me a pilot that is safe, effective, admits his/her mistakes and is willing to learn I will fly with them any day. So I suggest grow up and show a proper attitude to your flying peers as you have all seen it is a very small community and burning bridges is not a good thing.
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Chaxterium
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and its alive
And the thread is suddenly resurrected from the avcanada grave yard lol
No trees were harmed in the transmission of this message. However, a rather large number of electrons were temporarily inconvenienced.
