Petition against the practice of Temporary Foreign Pilots

[WetJet]

Great work Gilles.

Signed.

[Bede]

If you can't do it fairly and make a profit, then get out of the market.

Great idea!! You are the sole arbiter of what is fair, and if some firm doesn't meet your standards of fairness, they can get out of the market and some pilot is out of a job. You should get a job as an economist with the CAW.

mbav8r,
I think we both care deeply about this profession; the difference is I understand economics and you do not. You have not made any attempt to refute my analysis, but instead make an ad hominum attack based on my support for a short term solution that my company has made as a bridge between expansions. Well done.

Your ignorance on economic matters will have you support positions that are untenable and you may very well find your self out of job based on the positions that you and your coworkers take. Do I like what is going on with our profession? No, but I understand why it's happening and am willing to put forth suggestions, that, although unpopular, work within the current framework and would advance our profession far further than what most others are proposing.

BTW, I was also a vigorous supporter of your 757 payscale both on this board and in person. Why did I support the lowest 757 payscale in North America? Because your union and membership made a decision based on sound economics and not idealism.

[DGuy]

It is sad to see how people react to " foreigners" taking Canadians jobs. I know a lot of Canadian pilots employed by foreign airlines enjoying good working conditions ,earning honest wages flying decent equipment. Pilot employment is a global playing field, not a local one. I am sure that those "foreign pilots" are paid decent wages in Canada, and flying decent equipment. If You are not happy with the wages You are earning in Your own country, or seem to be stuck on a smaller type of aircraft ,or residing in a less desirable/remote area , then nobody holds that person back to apply for a position somewhere else worldwide . If you really want to keep Canadian pilot positions for true Canadians then maybe priority should be given to First Nation and Innuit people ,since the rest of us are only first/second/or later immigrants. It is indeed very sad to see such a great country as Canada which was home ones upon a time to companies such as Quebecair/Nordair/PW/CP/Wardair/EPA/, all flying larger equipment ,reduced today to only a few players. There seems also be a bit of confusing between long haul and short haul operators. These are two seperate markets. The long haul operator is only using its narrow bodies to feed the long haul fleet and hopefully make a profit of both operations and is therefore logistically more demanding. Canada seems to have only one long scheduled and one charter long haul operator serving the Canadian public. I am sure that a lot of foreign airlines are very much aware of this and making good use of it, or will in the not to distand future.
Yes, I am a Canadian and think highly of Canadians Flying skills as I have a lot of respect for other nationals flying skills as well. Proper training departments are key to this.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

This debate needs to be framed as "we are guardians of the public interest for air travel", not "it's not fair, I want more money". Governments and the public are far more receptive to that line of reasoning.

You didn't read the thread.

We just want the present Canadian laws and regulations to be applied to the letter. Here is what they say:

About the foreign pilots allowed into Canada under the reciprocal scheme:

A work permit may be issued under section 200 to a foreign national who intends to perform work that would create or maintain reciprocal employment of Canadian citizens or permanent residents of Canada in other countries; Entry under reciprocal provisions should result in a neutral labour market impact. Although it is not necessary that there be full reciprocity in practice within the same time frame (i.e. one for one exchange), there must at least be proof that there is or has been reciprocity, and the general order of magnitude of exchanges should be similar in order to demonstrate that, over a reasonable period of time (e.g. five years), there is a general neutral impact on the labour market. When the entities involved have no history of conducting reciprocal exchanges with Canada, it is reasonable to initially limit work permits to a small number of individuals and that subsequent work permits be issued only when reciprocity has been demonstrated.

So CIC must only allow as many Foreign Pilots into Canada as these Canadian Airlines sent overseas to work. The problem is that since CIC has no role at all in sending Canadian pilots overseas, they have absolutely no idea how many Canadians go overseas under this regulation in exchange for the Foreign pilots they allow into Canada. They just seem to trust the airlines to do the right thing. I say lets count them from day one, which began when the airline was founded.

Now for the LMOs.

Article 203 of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations provides the authority for officers to issue work permits on the basis of an Labour Market Opinion (LMO) from HRSDC. This Regulation provides broad authority for HRSDC to weigh several factors in assessing the impact on the Canadian labour market. Traditional factors such as wages and working conditions and the availability of Canadians or permanent residents to do the work in question, as well as whether skills and knowledge transfer would result from confirming the foreign worker and whether the work is likely to create other jobs for the benefit of Canadians or permanent residents. Also important is the fact that HRSDC can provide an LMO regarding whether the issuance of a work permit to a foreign national will have either a neutral or positive effect on the Canadian labour market. The employer is also expected to have made comprehensive efforts to try to fill the vacant position with Canadian workers or permanent residents.

Then, on the HRDSC Website, are the hiring step for Temporary Foreign Workers

Hiring Steps:
In almost all cases, foreign workers must have a valid work permit to work in Canada. When hiring a foreign worker, you, the employer must generally :
1. Submit an application for a Labour Market Opinion (LMO) to the Service Canada Centre responsible for processing applications.
Please note that you can apply for an (LMO) before the temporary foreign worker has been identified.
Before confirming a job offer, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada(HRSDC)/Service Canada considers whether :
 The job offer is genuine;
 The wages and working conditions are comparable to those offered to Canadians working in the occupation;
 Employers conducted reasonable efforts to hire or train Canadians for the job;
 The foreign worker is filling a labour shortage;
 The employment of the foreign worker will directly create new job opportunities or help retain jobs for Canadians;
 The foreign worker will transfer new skills and knowledge to Canadians; and
 The hiring of the foreign worker will not affect a labour disputes or the employment of any Canadian worker involved in such a dispute.

They must make sure there are available qualified pilots to do the job. When Sunwing posted these bogus ads in the paper asking requiring pilots with 737NG type ratings in order to justify hiring foreigners, they weren't really looking for qualified pilots (I have close to 15,000 hours, 8,500 hours of which are on the B757, the A310 and the A330 and I didn't qualify), they were just looking for an excuse to hire pilots they didn't have to train so they could save the cost of training. There is nothing in these laws and regulations that allow a Canadian Company to obtain LMOs to hire foreigners to save money.

To sum it up:

WE WANT THE PRESENT CANADIAN LAWS TO BE APPLIED AND RESPECTED

[Bede]

Gilles,

Thanks for the informative post.

I am not an expert on employment law, but if, from a legal prospective, you are correct, you will obtain better results through judicial review rather than by petition.

Petitions are for changing the law, judicial review is for having the government enforce it's own laws. See Canada v. PHS Community Services Society (Insite) 2011 SCC 44, [2011] 3 S.C.R. 134
http://scc.lexum.org/en/2011/2011scc44/2011scc44.html

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles,

Thanks for the informative post.

I am not an expert on employment law, but if, from a legal prospective, you are correct, you will obtain better results through judicial review rather than by petition.

Petitions are for changing the law, judicial review is for having the government enforce it's own laws. See Canada v. PHS Community Services Society (Insite) 2011 SCC 44, [2011] 3 S.C.R. 134
http://scc.lexum.org/en/2011/2011scc44/2011scc44.html

Well our position is that HRSDC civil servants perhaps didn't know what Type-Ratings were and that Air Canada, Westjet, Jazz, Transat etc did not require their applicants to be already Type-Rated before they were hired. We want to make sure that from now on they will know that this Type-Rating requirement is not to be considered as a legit excuse to hire foreigners.

Second, since CIC is responsible for providing Work Permits to Foreign Pilots entering Canada but has no role in Canadian pilots working overseas, perhaps that it was nobody's job at CIC to count the Canadian pilots going overseas under the reciprocal Immigration scheme. How can they limit the foreigners coming in if they have no numbers on Canadian pilots going overseas available to them ? We want someone to be responsible for doing the counting based on reliable data, and we want the the airlines who use this scheme be accountable for the numbers of pilots it sends overseas vs those they bring into Canada.

[Bede]

Giles,

Thanks for that. From what I gather, you work for AT. If you are correct, why not run your claims by your ALPA legal counsel? Perhaps you would be successful on a judicial review. I think legal costs would be around $50-100k, which if you'd win, you'd probably get about 1/2 that back. That's a small price on the grand scheme of things if 200 jobs are created. If AT pilots, the Sunwing pilots and Canjet pilots all split the cost, the price could be quite reasonable.

Of course, the big question of law is whether a type rating is a bona fide occupational requirement.

[Gino Under]

Trey

My comment was NOT specifically aimed at you.

Besides, the wording used was deliberate and I see no reason to edit what I said or how I said it. If some are offended, I can assure you, I've been offended on this forum before so it's just their turn.

I have no issues with your comments.

Gino Under

[mbav8r]

Bede, your anti union viewpoint is obvious but does not address the real problem. The problem is using a pratice that is, advantageous to one company using a loophole in the system, which will inevitably lead to a loss of jobs for middle class Canadians. Do you think that if SunWing is not forced to incur the same cost as WestJet for the same market segment, it won't have a negative affect on your companies ability to compete in that segment?

mbav8r,
I think we both care deeply about this profession; the difference is I understand economics and you do not. You have not made any attempt to refute my analysis, but instead make an ad hominum attack based on my support for a short term solution that my company has made as a bridge between expansions. Well done.

When is it no longer short term? Coming up on the 3rd season here and no end in sight, short term indeed!

This below, I agree 100%

I believe that as pilots we need to increase the value we provide to our those paying our pay cheque. We may be more expensive, but we are better pilots than foreign pilots (compare accident rates). Not everyone who wants can become a doctor or lawyer in Canada. Unfortunately, it doesn't take a lot of skill to become a commercial pilot in Canada. Even if someone gets into med or law school, the exams to gain licensure in those professions (administered by their peers) is extremely difficult and allows only the best in. I think we as pilots need to do the same thing. I am in strong support of a professional association with entrance exams, a minimum experience, a set of ethical guidelines, and sufficient membership dues to administer and protect our profession. This is the direction we need to take. We need to spend our energy lobbying the government to allow professional licensure of our profession.

I'm not sure which analysis you're referring to, possibly this below. If you were to eliminate the foreign pilots from the Canadian market, SunWing would be forced to hire Canadian pilots and pay according to supply instead of supplying the market with cheaper labour. I'm not implying they pay the foreign pilots less as I don't know what they pay, but the cost of labour includes everything from training to benefits and wages.
I don't agree that stripping the market of foreign pilots would cause a firm to close, if SunWing were on a level playing field they would not be over saturating a market, which is the main cause for a loss of jobs. The growth of one company in this segment will be at the cost of another company shrinking. So if one uses a loophole causing an "unfair" advantage, is that good for the economy?

I think you are only looking at one side of the supply demand curve. In China there are not enough pilots to fill the seats, at the current pilot wage levels. If foreign pilots were eliminated from the chinese market, existing airlines would have to compete for the services of a limited number of native chinese pilots. They would do this by increasing wages. As wages increased, carriers would be forced to raise their prices. Increased prices would lead to a decrease in demand for air travel in China. Eventually, some of the carriers would be forced to close as a result of the decreased demand and higher costs. Once firms start to close, there would be fewer available pilot jobs and eventually there would no longer be a shortage of pilots to fill the seats. The wage of pilots would remain high until there is a change in demand. This is how an efficient market maintains equilibrium. You can substitute construction workers, milk, Oranges (imagine the price of Oranges if we only allowed domestic Oranges in Canada?!), or any other commodity for pilots and the supply demand equilibrium still holds. Of course there will always be some resistance and elasticity but the equilibrium will hold.

[sanjet]

I share your concern. However, capitalism does it's work regardless of whether we get in the way or not. It just hurts more when you get in the way. However, I don't think we should sit back and watch our professions get eroded like many other professions. We should see what is going on, understand why it's going on and adjust our strategy to protect our profession based on sound economic principles as opposed to ideological trade unionism philosophies that are all but dead.

This debate needs to be framed as "we are guardians of the public interest for air travel", not "it's not fair, I want more money". Governments and the public are far more receptive to that line of reasoning.

You are right bede, we must always look at the another perspective: what's in it for the government and the public. It's the same reason the government did not allow Air Canada pilots to strike and yet will not intervene for this matter. Hence why it is stated that a significant amount of income tax and money is lost from the Canadian economy with this practice. The rest I think is not of a concern to the general public as they simply will not care. It is for us as pilots to create initiatives that's in the interest of our profession but also not a detriment to the airline industry in Canada. This is more of a reason to continue with the goal of having some sort of college or association of pilots.

[TG]

As long as this can prevent what happened with the Merchant Navy....

Where most of the vessels are now crewed with very cheap labors from third world countries (besides Captains !?)

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Of course, the big question of law is whether a type rating is a bona fide occupational requirement.

If it were, then Air Canada, Jazz, Westjet and Transat could all stop hiring unrated locals and request LMO's for hiring Type-Rated foreigners. There are excellent Cubana pilots with A-320 type ratings who make $50/month at home and who would be more than willing to apply. There are many Indian pilots with 737NG ratings that can work at Westjet........and so forth.

The truth is that almost no airline in the World requires type ratings of its applicants, even those who hire almost exclusively expats like Emirates......

[Wacko]

... you can't compare say China to Canada with regards to foreign pilots. The pilots going overseas are not low time guys... this is brain-drain just like say.. doctors to the US. Don't think for one second that this will not change when the locals get up in hours... look at PPC, there are various Middle East and Asian airlines that require the applicant to be a local national. It's starting to become more and more common!

There is no pilot "void" in Canada... while the company saves 20K on a type rating, WE, the CANADIAN tax payers are paying some schmuck

(I have close to 15,000 hours, 8,500 hours of which are on the B757, the A310 and the A330 and I didn't qualify

his 60% Employment Insurance premiums (say 60K) to sit on his ass and start silly petitions!

[Gilles Hudicourt]

..

[Colonel Sanders]

This thread is embarrassing. I feel like I have stumbled onto a group of guys with summer teeth sitting on their couches in their front yards, passing a bottle of screech around. All we need is some banjo music.

In the immortal words of Charles Emmerson Winchester III: "My family has had problems with immigrants ever since we came to this country!"

[Gilles Hudicourt]

This thread is embarrassing. I feel like I have stumbled onto a group of guys with summer teeth sitting on their couches in their front yards, passing a bottle of screech around. All we need is some banjo music.

In the immortal words of Charles Emmerson Winchester III: "My family has had problems with immigrants ever since we came to this country!"

Well I started this thread and I happen to be an immigrant myself. I immigrated to Canada 22 years ago. But I came to Canada through the front door, did all my ratings here, began working at the bottom of the totem pole and worked my way up, paying taxes and spending my money in Canada along the way.
Did you even look at the 1500 names that already signed the petition ? There is probably a representative of just about every race, religion and ethnic origin on this planet, but they are all CANADIAN pilots. And they are against the Government of Canada allowing non-residents of Canada to come here and deprive Canadian pilots of jobs they should be getting.

There is nothing Red Neck or Xenophobic about it.

[trey kule]

So CIC must only allow as many Foreign Pilots into Canada as these Canadian Airlines sent overseas to work. The problem is that since CIC has no role at all in sending Canadian pilots overseas, they have absolutely no idea how many Canadians go overseas under this regulation in exchange for the Foreign pilots they allow into Canada. They just seem to trust the airlines to do the right thing. I say lets count them from day one, which began when the airline was founded.

I agree 100%. But you give the impression that you do know what the numbers are, and that it is totally unfair to Canada....We should count 'em......we then might not have to trust a bad old airline.
Training costs would be a huge cost for seasonal pilots if they were not type rated, as well as the time required to do the ratings...Hiring qualified pilots for a seasonal shortage makes perfect sense to me. If there are qualified Canadian pilots then it would be a different story, but if it is just a case of we want the job...doesnt matter how much sense it makes to anyone else, than your whole petition is really a very selfish exercise. How about you post some figures on the Canadian pilots who are qualified and not employed? Oh, wait...you snuck that little clause in that Canadian pilots should not have to be type rated...Why was that again?

As to type ratings, not being required. Again, I must dispute your claim. The company I work for, and the others I am familiar with not only require a type rating, but the regulator also requires it in order to do a license conversion. No type rating.. No license conversion! What is TC'c policy on this?
BTW. I know that the very minute they can replace my old wrinkled butt with a cheaper national I will be history.

[ODA]

Gilles

Good Luck on this forum. Few people here understand the fact that Sunwing is doing well and expanding using people who don't live in this country at the expense of an airline that employs Canadians. Our government is about Jobs jobs jobs, however Canadians are about to lose jobs because we're too expensive to train and expect reasonable working conditions.

Don't work for Transat.

Signed the petition.

Good Luck!!!

[Bede]

.

[azimuthaviation]

This thread is embarrassing. I feel like I have stumbled onto a group of guys with summer teeth sitting on their couches in their front yards, passing a bottle of screech around. All we need is some banjo music.

In the immortal words of Charles Emmerson Winchester III: "My family has had problems with immigrants ever since we came to this country!"

Making fun of rednecks? "We were alll immigrants at some point?"

Who is this??

[SuperTroll]

Great work Gilles! Every kid in flight school (in Canada!!!) to Navajo and 1900 drivers should thank you!

Signed it.

[Colonel Sanders]

"Protectionism is the crack cocaine of economics,"

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/econom ... k_coc.html

Dallas Fed President: Protectionism Is 'Crack Cocaine' Of Economics
If it ever crossed your mind: "I wonder what Dallas Federal Reserve President Richard Fisher thinks about protectionism," then wonder no longer.

"Protectionism is the crack cocaine of economics," Fisher said on C-Span this morning.

"It provides an immediate high that leads to economic death. We cannot afford to go down that route," said Fisher, one of 12 Fed district bank presidents, all of whom are under Fed Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke.

Fisher was warning against the "Buy American" provisions in President Obama's stimulus plan and urged him to avoid language that will antagonize trading partners.

Protectionism leads to high tariffs and those lead to retaliatory tariffs from other nations, driving up the cost of goods, shutting down the flow of goods and extending recessions.

Many economists point to the disastrous Smoot-Hawley Tariff of 1930, which not only prolonged the Great Depression in the U.S., it did the same to the rest of the world, thanks to a tariff-happy President Hoover and a Congress eager to try to help Americans at the expense of the rest of the world without thinking about the long-term consequences.

To quote the Encyclopedia Britannica: "In response to the stock market crash of 1929, however, protectionism gained strength, and, though the tariff legislation subsequently passed only by a narrow margin (44–42) in the Senate, it passed easily in the House of Representatives. Despite a petition from more than 1,000 economists urging him to veto the legislation, Hoover signed the bill into law on June 17, 1930.

Smoot-Hawley contributed to the early loss of confidence on Wall Street and signaled U.S. isolationism. By raising the average tariff by some 20 percent, it also prompted retaliation from foreign governments, and many overseas banks began to fail."

I figure, what the heck, if you don't like non-Canadian pilots flying in Canada, we ought to stop foreign airlines from landing at Canadian cities. Heck, we don't even want them overflying through Canadian airspace!

Even Ferris Bueller knew this:

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I agree 100%. But you give the impression that you do know what the numbers are, and that it is totally unfair to Canada....We should count 'em......we then might not have to trust a bad old airline.

We actually have numbers for SunWing and for Canjet, provided by Canadian SunWing and Canjet pilots who work there and are not happy about this situation.

Training costs would be a huge cost for seasonal pilots if they were not type rated, as well as the time required to do the ratings...Hiring qualified pilots for a seasonal shortage makes perfect sense to me. If there are qualified Canadian pilots then it would be a different story, but if it is just a case of we want the job...doesnt matter how much sense it makes to anyone else, than your whole petition is really a very selfish exercise.

Well then, maybe we should stop hiring and training Canadians to fly our water bombers as well and get LMOs instead for temporary foreign pilots. There are many qualified and trained water bomber pilots in the Southern hemisphere, whose high season is the opposite as ours and who are mostly idle in their countries their their winter which corresponds to our high demand season, summer. Training costs are high for water bomber pilots for such a short season.

How about you post some figures on the Canadian pilots who are qualified and not employed?

Its not a matter of not being employed. I have a Canadian friend flying a Fokker 70 or 100 in Southeast Asia who wants to come back to Canada. He is employed. He is qualified. But he does not have a 737NG Type Rating.....How about a Canadian ex-SkyService 757 captain who had to go to the Middle East but who wants to come back to Canada. He has no 737 NG type rating. How about a guy who is flying Military A-310 or C-17 and who would like to leave the military? Is he qualified? Nope! He has no 737NG type rating. What about an experienced CL-415 water bomber Captain who goes on EI in the winter. He could very well be interested in a temporary 737NG job for SunWing every winter ? Not qualified!

#1506 on the Petition, wrote as a comment:

Ex Skyservice Airlines, airbus A320 capt, 20,000 hrs. Was unemployed while Canjet and Sunwing Airlines contracted foreign pilots.

He didn't have the required B-737NG type rating.

Then at Air Transat, we sometimes hire experienced B-1900, Metroliner or Dash-8 pilots who after their ground-school, their Sim and their line-indoctrination, are put in the right seat of a A-310 or A-330 and do a fine job.

As to type ratings, not being required. Again, I must dispute your claim. The company I work for, and the others I am familiar with not only require a type rating, but the regulator also requires it in order to do a license conversion. No type rating.. No license conversion! What is TC'c policy on this?
BTW. I know that the very minute they can replace my old wrinkled butt with a cheaper national I will be history.

As for your last paragraph, I'm sorry, I know of no major Canadian Company, other than those who make use of temporary Foreign pilots, that requires Type Ratings as a condition of employment. Some require bonds to cover the cost of the Type Rating, but not the Type Rating itself.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

......

[Colonel Sanders]

Boggles the mind.

Imagine you're about to take off, and some economist runs up to you and proceeds to give you intense (and completely wrong) advice about how to fly your aircraft.

You would laugh at the economist, who knows nothing about aviation. You might tell him that if he sticks to economics, you will stick to aviation.

I figure, what the heck, if you don't like non-Canadian pilots flying in Canada, we ought to stop foreign airlines from landing at Canadian cities. Heck, we don't even want them overflying through Canadian airspace!