BONDS and PRESSURE

[NWONT]

What a world we live in. The operator is expected to invest heavily in your training and give you his expensive equipment to operate and risk his standing with the insurance company and the pilot will commit to absolutely nothing. He expects that door to be held wide open incase, now that he is trained as has a small amount of experience, he may get a better offer at the hanger two doors down. On top of that he wants a friendly handshake, a kiss on the cheek and a Bon Voyage party with lots of good wishes for his future. Well why the hell not, as Ifly says, he's got millions to spend on this sort of thing......millions I tell ya. Sure like to hear from an operator here but they know they'll just be called slave drivers who hold "PROFESSIONALS" in servitude. Sheees....and people wonder why I drink the way I do?????

[Doc]

What a world we live in. The operator is expected to invest heavily in your training and give you his expensive equipment to operate and risk his standing with the insurance company and the pilot will commit to absolutely nothing. He expects that door to be held wide open incase, now that he is trained as has a small amount of experience, he may get a better offer at the hanger two doors down. On top of that he wants a friendly handshake, a kiss on the cheek and a Bon Voyage party with lots of good wishes for his future. Well why the hell not, as Ifly says, he's got millions to spend on this sort of thing......millions I tell ya. Sure like to hear from an operator here but they know they'll just be called slave drivers who hold "PROFESSIONALS" in servitude. Sheees....and people wonder why I drink the way I do?????

Edited because some people were born without a sense of humour.
I used to be a sales rep for IBM. They sent us on a 6 week training course in New York State. Training cost a bloody fortune. I can assure you, it cost a Hell of a lot more than a PPC on anything short of a small Boeing. There were 8 or us on the course. We lost 3 to Xerox within the first couple of months. We replaced them with 3 people that Xerox had trained. Very similar course, apparently. No harm, no foul, no bond. Methinks there's a lesson here, for anyone with even half a brain. Pity some of you lack same.

[NWONT]

Two men of honor make an agreement that involves thousands of dollars. One of them wants the "freedom" to renege at any time he wishes. The other is expected to put his money on the table when he knows the person he is dealing with is always looking at the door for a better deal using the resources that he is providing. The cost of doing business is providing expensive training to people that are just "passing through".Doc, does your employer read what you post here? If I was your employer I think you'd be looking for a job. This has gone beyond stupidity.........this is mental illness!!!

[NWONT]

Whats this KY jelly nonsense? If I make an agreement with an employer to accept his investment in my future and I intend to stand by my word of honor and not sneak away in the darkness of night are you seriously suggesting that I am being anally penetrated by the person that I have made respected agreement with and intend to live up to?? What in hell is wrong with you?? You have something seriousely wrong with you mind.

[Doc]

If I was your employer I think you'd be looking for a job. This has gone beyond stupidity.........this is mental illness!!!

Based on what, exactly? I don't agree with you? You would never be my employer in the first place. I don't sign bonds. If this is mental illness, you don't seem to be able to let go either? We must have ridden the same short bus?

[Doc]

are you seriously suggesting that I am being anally penetrated by the person that I have made respected agreement with and intend to live up to?? .

Your words sir, not mine. You're calling me sick....and YOU come up with this?

[Doc]

If I make an agreement with an employer to accept his investment in my future and I intend to stand by my word .

So, stand by your word. Is this a problem in aviation? It's business. In business, people move to greener pastures. If you cant afford to loose the odd employee, you shouldn't be in business in the first place.

BTW, I deleted the immature references to my being "sick".....I can assure you, I'm anything but.

[Sidebar]

Get a life Doc.

[flyinthebug]

Get a life Doc.

He has a great life that most of us would envy. Beautiful home, beautiful wife, awesome job, and a pretty cool obsession with Motorbikes and German Shepards. Doc has a passion against bonds and somehow that makes him insane? Although I dont fully agree with Doc on this subject, to call him insane and the other words hes been called in this thread is just childish.

As an operator, I never once asked any of my crew to sign a bond. I DID however have employment contracts that didnt cost anyone (other than our company lawyer`s fee) a penny. They basically said ill pay for all your PPC training and you stay one year with us. If you decide to leave within 12 months, just pay whats remaining on your contract and away you go. (They were $5000 for the PA31 and $7000 for the King Air).

It worked well for us for many years, and I only recall one pilot who left us with no notice in the middle of fire season. Other than that one headache we really had a great crew who all honoured their word to me and stayed far longer than the year they promised.

For the tier 3 companies I understand the need for a bond. I dont agree with it but I do understand it from a business perspective. The biggest plane(s) our company paid for PPCs on was our King Air and PA31-350s but when you get to say a Metro III and you have FSI and all related training costs, I understand the need for a bond. If someone left us, the worst case senario for our op was a 10K loss. For a company like Bearskin or Perimeter etc, they face 25-35K in pilot training costs and therefore I can appreciate the need for bonds on that level of investment. Once you reach the big leagues, I believe bonds should completely disappear. Guys & gals with that level of accomplishment and experience tend not to take the 1st good offer they get, and will likely stick around without the handcuffs of a bond.

Lets keep this thread away from name calling and personal attacks. People (even pilots) can disagree without reverting to name calling. Cant they?

Fly safe all.

[NWONT]

Doc, don't remove your statements then edit mine to suit your purpose. Flyingthe bug, the system you are using is a "bond". Calling it an employment contract dosen't change it and there's nothing wrong with it. When pilots and other employees make an agreement to provide a service in exchange for expensive training and a salary, they should live up to what they have agreed to do. If you have other irons in the fire be honest enough not enter into this arrangement in the first place. If you're new employer has any integrity he will respect you for living up to your word and keep your resume at the top of the pile. I don't believe companies such as yours have "millions" to spend on training and not get a return on their investment. You're right, this thread has gone way downhill. I was disgusted with the KY jelly comment toward some one who has signed an agreement such as the one you, yourself uses. This repulsive comment was removed and my words edited. I see nothing wrong with a young aviator, trying to move ahead in this industry, by making an adult agreement with his employer and then living up to it. Its been said on this site that some would not hire someone who has signed one of these agreements. Well I would but I wouldn't consider someone that "ran like a rat" as Doc put it so well. This is a highly competitive industry with neverending rising operating costs. I'm sure you will agree on that one. I give up on this discussion.....for the second time.

[flyinthebug]

Well said NWONT. I think this thread can get back on track.

I cant speak for Doc on this topic but I believe that his issue is with the fact that bonds equate to a young person having to go secure a loan to become employed for rather low wages...after already spending a small fortune to get his/her licences.

With our employment contract, there is no money that changes hands (unless of course the employee decides to leave before his year commitment) but even then its pro-rated (i.e. leave after 6 months, pay us back 3500$ for a King Air PPC, 2500$ for a PA31 etc). After much discussion with the owner on this, and me stating my disagreement with cash up front bonds, we compromised with an employment contract. You are correct that it is in effect the same as a bond, but we never asked for or accepted any money. Your signature was your "bond" and your commitment to stay one year.

So I feel an employment contract satisfies all parties involved, and doesnt force anyone to "pay" for their position. Its simply a compromise to a cash bond. A handshake on paper.

FYI..In over 4 years I never had to enforce one single contract for failure to honour it.

Fly safe all.

[The Weasel]

Bonds are indentured servitude. Where's the "freedom"?

You have the freedom not to sign the contract. Simple as that. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and making you sign. If a person doesn't like the terms, then they have the freeedom not to sign.

[complexintentions]

We're talking about two different issues here.

Issue one: feeling pressure due to a bond. For Pete's sake, if you can't compartmentalize your life enough to temporarily leave behind non-operational issues while you're flying, you should be professional enough to ground yourself. If you're worrying about the bond enough to force you to make poor decisions, perhaps flying isn't for you. I mean, maybe you had a fight with the wife, lost a bundle on a stock, whatever. You have to be able to leave it behind at least long enough to do your job properly. That's got nothing to do with bonds per se.

Issue two: bonds. I'm not sure if doc has ever run a business, but it's one of the more difficult endeavours out there to do successfully, I would submit, especially for smaller companies. How do you project a budget for training - a major, significant cost - when you don't know if you're going to LOSE (not loose, geezuz) the "odd employee"? Ok, maybe you can ballpark it from historical norms or something, but for operators with a small group of pilots losing even one before you've employed them long enough to recoup your costs can be a major blow. Does anyone hazard a guess on what kind of margins the whole industry runs on? Hint: think razor blade. If I was a business owner I'd try and control my costs too - I need to know that if I'm going to plunk down $20,000 or whatever, that for that investment I'm going to either have a trained pilot who will hopefully generate at least that in business, or the cash back.

Doc, is it the word "bond" that offends you? Would you feel better if we substituted the word "contract"? Because that's all it is, a legally binding agreement between two parties. If you don't like the terms, negotiate them. If you still don't like them, don't sign it. How is that so complicated? "Indentured servitude" sounds a bit drama-queen to me. Even here at Emirates I had to sign a 36,000USD bond pro-rated over 3 years for the B777 type. And EK is hardly a mom and pop operation.

I don't have a problem with bonds, subject to their conditions. (I do recognize there are scumbag operators who inflate the amounts and time periods for the training.) What I DO have a problem with is setups like the former Jetsgo, where the EMPLOYEE bears 100% of the financial risk of the training. That's just another version of P2F, covered in another thread.

And lastly, comparing aviation to working for Xerox is a lot more off-base than comparing civilian aviation to military aviation. There are plenty of jobs where the terms of employment include penalties for not fulfilling the length of the contract. The fact that your example isn't one isn't really relevant to aviation training bonds.

As far as the majors not using bonds, ok fine. But you make crap wages for years 1 and 2 at both WestJet and Air Canada, so they DO recoup their costs if you leave during that time.

[Doc]

Get a life Doc.

That's it? That's all you've got?

Well you're the real tough cookie with the long history
Of breaking little hearts, like the one in me
That's O.K., lets see how you do it
Put up your dukes, lets get down to it!
Hit Me With Your Best Shot!
Why Don't You Hit Me With Your Best Shot!
Hit Me With Your Best Shot!
Fire Away!


That aside, I was originally concerned whether or not a bond (or having thousands of dollars to loose if you back out of a trip the boss thinks you should do) might influence a pilot's decision making with regards to weather, or any number of other factors? Personally, I can see this kind of thing happening.
Got a little off track did I? I tend to.
My apologies. Now, back on track...

[NWONT]

At times these bizzare threads actually produce something worthwhile. We had two fo them going at the same time. VAL has been slammed many times on this site but Chaxterium took the time to explain many aspects of the situation from someone that is actually there and has first hand info from personal experience. Very well presented and very informative. Complexintentions also gave his view of his knowledge from a grander scale than most of us will ever see. Flyingthebug gave us a glimpse of his view from a management position. All good stuff. I think we can now see that there are some differences in the idea of a bond/contract/working agreement. All different but basically the same. In my little town, Dryden Ont, we have a mighty fine company that hires low time pilots. Not sure what the minimums are but not too extreme. They have an excellent facility with very good and very well maintained aircraft. I know this because I have known some of the engineers for more years than I can remember and they are the best. The maintenance area is so clean and well kept you could literally eat off the floor. As I said, the aircraft are very well cared for and always flown VFR, with just two people and full fuel most every flight and there is no physical labor. Perfect place for a budding aviator to build some multi time without having to push his limits....ever. Now this job dosen't pay all that much but I believe a bedroom in the company house is included. Many times it can be a rainy summer, so not much flying for periods of time so flight crews may get antsy and think of "running like rats". To ensure that everyone hangs in there til the end of the contract some pay is held til the end. At the end of the contract there is a bonus for those who honor their commitment and live up to their agreement. I believe this could be considered a bond. Is there anyone here that works for this fine company that would like to shed some light on this in case I may be a little in error?

[Doc]

Without going into too many details, the company you speak of operates C337s on fire detection. Minimums are, I believe 1000 TT and 100 MPIC. no IFR required because, as you stated, it's all VFR. It's hard to keep good guys around for a whole season, so they offer a retention bonus. Company supplies housing. It's a good gig. Kind of like summer camp for pilots.

Need more details? PM me.

[NWONT]

No, I don't require any more details. It is a good gig for pilots with little experience to get started even if there is a bond. Isn't this the same company that you work for Doc?

[Chaxterium]

VAL has been slammed many times on this site but Chaxterium took the time to explain many aspects of the situation from someone that is actually there and has first hand info from personal experience. Very well presented and very informative.

Thanks for the kind words. Much appreciated. It has bothered me for a long time how VAL is the first company mentioned as soon as bonds come up on these boards. Especially when the information regarding VAL is at best old news and at worst flat out wrong.

Cheers,
Chax

[Liquid Charlie]

I'm thinking that the fine line between what we are referring to as a bond as opposed to a contract is that these so called bonds are completely one sided - they offer no protection to the candidate. If it were approached as a contract with everything laid out - reference to CARS and SOP's and that the company must adhere to the rules as much as the pilot then I would have very little or no issue at all. I would, however, like to see a reasonable dollar value and time frame. I saw reference to $7500 for a light piston twin - since ground school and such is mostly self study I'm a little staggered that the operating cost appears to be for than $1000/hr -- I would have expected companies to offset training costs but not to make a profit from them.

I have also witnessed a company playing with the idea they wanted to charge for all upgrades and advancement as well. While I can understand equipment freeze to keep charging for training even for an employee that has worked for you for several years is certainly pushing it - and the sad part is that there are people who will buy into it -- damn

[Doc]

No, I don't require any more details. It is a good gig for pilots with little experience to get started even if there is a bond. Isn't this the same company that you work for Doc?

Close, but no cigar.
Not "bond" there. Just a retention bonus. Still a good gig for low time young folks....or for pilots in semi-retirement who want winters off.
D

[flyinthebug]

I saw reference to $7500 for a light piston twin - since ground school and such is mostly self study I'm a little staggered that the operating cost appears to be for than $1000/hr -- I would have expected companies to offset training costs but not to make a profit from them

I understand your concern Liquid Charlie if infact we profited on any level from our employment contracts. The $7000 for the King Air (Twin turbine not piston twin) included a professional ground school, minimum 4 hours flight training (some guys needed up to 6 hours) and we paid for the ride, and all associated costs. We were based in CYPA and all Captains and First Officers were sent for a 4 day groundschool in Alberta at a very reputable King Air operation with all expenses paid including travel. The ground school alone was over $2000 per candidate once we paid hotels, meals etc...plus the cost to run the actual groundschool for 4 days (instructor etc). That left $5000 for a minimum 4 hours flight training (overall with total absorption cost, the A100 was close to $1050 per air hour to break even...and $620 per hour for just the machine). So with a minimum 4 hours flight training = $4000 plus another hour for the ride and pay the examiner....were already exceeding a 7K investment. Then there is line indoc where im paying two Captains salaries and that eats into an already thin margin even further.

Same idea for the PA31-350...(the light piston twin you were referring to) $5000 agreement....minimum 4 hours flight training @$500 an hour to run the aircraft and $750 total absorption cost. 4x750=$3000 plus an hour for the ride plus pay instructor for 3 day groundschool and pay the examiner etc...and again we have exceeded the $5000 contract we asked our pilots to sign.

We also included unlimited access to the flight sim and provided instruction when required.

I did not ever seek to make a profit from our employment contracts. That is why we went with a contract vs a cash bond. With no cash changing hands, im not sure how we could have profited even if someone did default? I just wanted to protect my investment without requiring money upfront to achieve that. The employment contract was a good and solid compromise to a cash bond.

One final point, I dont have a copy of the contract infront of me, but I do know we promised in return to provide professional flight training to TC standards and a safe work environment with well maintained equipment. No one ever even blinked once they read it and realized that the investment we were making in them exceeded the amount we asked them to cover should they have to leave prior to their year. CYA my friend, nothing more or less...and certainly was never a "for profit" venture.
I hope this clears it up for you a bit.
Fly safe. FTB

[Doc]

One must wonder what a "bare bones, no frills" Boeing 737 NG rating would cost. If a young pilot were to. basically sleep in their car, or go for the cheapest flea-bag hotel in the area, gobble Mickey D's and forgo the luxuries, I'd be willing to bet two of you would be able to pull it off pretty reasonably? But that's off topic.

[Chaxterium]

I saw reference to $7500 for a light piston twin - since ground school and such is mostly self study I'm a little staggered that the operating cost appears to be for than $1000/hr -- I would have expected companies to offset training costs but not to make a profit from them

I understand your concern Liquid Charlie if infact we profited on any level from our employment contracts. The $7000 for the King Air (Twin turbine not piston twin) included a professional ground school, minimum 4 hours flight training (some guys needed up to 6 hours) and we paid for the ride, and all associated costs. We were based in CYPA and all Captains and First Officers were sent for a 4 day groundschool in Alberta at a very reputable King Air operation with all expenses paid including travel. The ground school alone was over $2000 per candidate once we paid hotels, meals etc...plus the cost to run the actual groundschool for 4 days (instructor etc). That left $5000 for a minimum 4 hours flight training (overall with total absorption cost, the A100 was close to $1050 per air hour to break even...and $620 per hour for just the machine). So with a minimum 4 hours flight training = $4000 plus another hour for the ride and pay the examiner....were already exceeding a 7K investment. Then there is line indoc where im paying two Captains salaries and that eats into an already thin margin even further.

Same idea for the PA31-350...(the light piston twin you were referring to) $5000 agreement....minimum 4 hours flight training @$500 an hour to run the aircraft and $750 total absorption cost. 4x750=$3000 plus an hour for the ride plus pay instructor for 3 day groundschool and pay the examiner etc...and again we have exceeded the $5000 contract we asked our pilots to sign.

We also included unlimited access to the flight sim and provided instruction when required.

I did not ever seek to make a profit from our employment contracts. That is why we went with a contract vs a cash bond. With no cash changing hands, im not sure how we could have profited even if someone did default? I just wanted to protect my investment without requiring money upfront to achieve that. The employment contract was a good and solid compromise to a cash bond.

One final point, I dont have a copy of the contract infront of me, but I do know we promised in return to provide professional flight training to TC standards and a safe work environment with well maintained equipment. No one ever even blinked once they read it and realized that the investment we were making in them exceeded the amount we asked them to cover should they have to leave prior to their year. CYA my friend, nothing more or less...and certainly was never a "for profit" venture.
I hope this clears it up for you a bit.
Fly safe. FTB

That seems completely reasonable to me. Both parties are protected. My situation was very similar. Basically just the numbers are different. My company asked for $15k for one year for a DHC7 type rating. I was covered if the company let me go, or went under, and they were covered if I left before my year was up.

For my training I spent a week in North Bay for company indoc, and then three weeks in Toronto including two weeks of ground school and then one week of sim. We did 38 hours of training in a sim that costs $1000 an hour to rent. (I'm sure the company gets a decent discount but even still that's a huge cost). The company paid all expenses and I was paid my full salary from day one plus per diems. It seemed fair to me. I had no problem agreeing to a year especially considering that a year at my company is only 6 months of work. Obviously I would prefer not to have to sign an employment contract but when it's done fairly it seems reasonable. If I didn't like the terms I wouldn't have agreed. Simple as that.

Cheers,
Chax

[KK7]

It's hard to keep good guys around for a whole season, so they offer a retention bonus. Company supplies housing. It's a good gig. Kind of like summer camp for pilots.

If it's such a good gig then why is it so hard to keep guys around for a whole season?

On the topic of this thread regarding pressure from Bonds, these guys might feel pressure to do things they wouldn't otherwise do because they fear they would lose out on the retention bonus?

[NWONT]

"Retention Bonus" Damn, I like that. Farley Mowat said the Eskimos have about 30 words for snow. If we can keep this thread going, we are going to have way more for "bond".