(Avro) Arrow as modern day alternative to F35??

[all_ramped_up]

Should just buy the Eurofighter Typhoon and be done with it.

A new Arrow would be a bigger waste of money than what we've already dumped into the F-35.

[slam525i]

But where and what is the clear and present external threat to Canada? Mostly the same as it is to the rest of western-like democracies, (and even pseudo-democracies). It is from radical Islam. Specifically, radical Muslim males fueled with religious fervor.

That may be true now, but in 25 years when these airframes are still in service? (Well, at this rate, ENTERING service...) Planning on existing threats only, without looking in the future, always catches people with their pants down.


Is the F-35 a mess? Yes. Is there a good alternative? No. We're part of NATO. Our biggest ally is the US. Our toys need to play well with their toys. Anyone who thinks an individual country (with the exception of the US) can go completely solo doesn't understand modern warfare nor modern aircraft. We need to buy either US or European hardware for compatibility as well as support and maintenance. I say Super Hornets if we want "cheap", F-35 / Eurofighter Typhoon if we can afford it.

Resurrecting a 50 year old design is pretty stupid, and the people suggesting it are probably just chest-thumping to wave the Canadian flag. We'd get less ridicule if we put hardpoints on Learjets and using them as multi-role strike/intercept. Developing a 50 year old design would be like buying another set of British diesel-electric subs that even they didn't want. Maybe we can trade the subs back to them for parts and plans to the English Electric Lightning.

[frosti]

Should just buy the Eurofighter Typhoon and be done with it.

A new Arrow would be a bigger waste of money than what we've already dumped into the F-35.

Sticking with the F35 is the best choice we have right now considering how great its been doing in testing lately. Buying a European fighter, that uses European parts, systems, equipment and weapons would be an idiotic idea considering how closely linked we are with the US. The modern Avro concept is just a dumbass idea.

[cncpc]

Save the money we waste on fighter jets, and spend it on a really world class Coast Guard.. Why are we buying fighters when the Rhode Island National Guard could kick the crap out of us?
But, we could have the most modern Coast Guard in the world. I thin, that's where we should be spending the money. That and feeding hungry children, supplying drinkable water to the reserves, becoming energy self sufficient, making higher education affordable to Canadian students........the list goes on.

Absolutely.

One of the best posts I've seen on here.

[cncpc]

But where and what is the clear and present external threat to Canada?

For anyone who is paying attention, the clear and present external threat to Canada is the United States. That is, if you consider a threat to be against the right to live as an independent sovereign nation, with the decisions of government arising only from the wishes of the electorate, and made without fear from, or approval of, a foreign entity.

We have signed treaties that allow US armed forces to come onto Canadian soil in undefined circumstances. We are now shipping almost every British Columbian merely accused of something to do with trans border marijuana charges to the US justice system, rather than try them for the laws they have broken in Canada. We are now going to allow armed police officers from the United States to patrol in US police cars on Canadian soil, with the right to shoot and kill Canadian citizens. 70% of Canadians indicate they believe marijuana should be legal. It isn't because America doesn't permit that. Our politicians openly admit that the reason the law doesn't change is because we have to consider what the Americans would think.

We live in Vichy Canada, under Vichy Conservative rule.

Muslims? FF sakes, get with it.

[Beefitarian]

We are now shipping almost every British Columbian merely accused of something to do with trans border marijuana charges to the US justice system, rather than try them for the laws they have broken in Canada. We are now going to allow armed police officers from the United States to patrol in US police cars on Canadian soil, with the right to shoot and kill Canadian citizens.

Wut?

[frosti]

FF sakes, get with it.

Take your own advice.

[Caracrane]

Should just buy the Eurofighter Typhoon and be done with it.

A new Arrow would be a bigger waste of money than what we've already dumped into the F-35.

Sticking with the F35 is the best choice we have right now considering how great its been doing in testing lately. Buying a European fighter, that uses European parts, systems, equipment and weapons would be an idiotic idea considering how closely linked we are with the US. The modern Avro concept is just a dumbass idea.

US authoritizes have been successful for about 20 years if not more I didn't check but with the off-shore rescue Dolphin helicopter. So ask Air Can to sell all their buses. And I'm sold to the europeans believe me.

[frosti]

Should just buy the Eurofighter Typhoon and be done with it.

A new Arrow would be a bigger waste of money than what we've already dumped into the F-35.

Sticking with the F35 is the best choice we have right now considering how great its been doing in testing lately. Buying a European fighter, that uses European parts, systems, equipment and weapons would be an idiotic idea considering how closely linked we are with the US. The modern Avro concept is just a dumbass idea.

US authoritizes have been successful for about 20 years if not more I didn't check but with the off-shore rescue Dolphin helicopter. So ask Air Can to sell all their buses. And I'm sold to the europeans believe me.

You obviously miss understood my post or you just don't understand the complexity of the fighter world.

[Caracrane]

Should just buy the Eurofighter Typhoon and be done with it.

A new Arrow would be a bigger waste of money than what we've already dumped into the F-35.

Sticking with the F35 is the best choice we have right now considering how great its been doing in testing lately. Buying a European fighter, that uses European parts, systems, equipment and weapons would be an idiotic idea considering how closely linked we are with the US. The modern Avro concept is just a dumbass idea.

US authoritizes have been successful for about 20 years if not more I didn't check but with the off-shore rescue Dolphin helicopter. So ask Air Can to sell all their buses. And I'm not sold to the europeans believe me.

You don't know the Arrow, obviously. Days have changed if a fighter jet would be built by Bombardier, it would sell.

[frosti]

You don't know the Arrow, obviously. Days have changed if a fighter jet would be built by Bombardier, it would sell.

If Bombardier wants to build the Arrow, let them fund and develop the program on their own. By the time they get a flyable prototype the RCAF will be retiring the F35.

[The Weasel]

Anyone who thinks an individual country (with the exception of the US) can go completely solo doesn't understand modern warfare nor modern aircraft.

I believe Sweden has been able to go it alone thus far, producing most of their own planes, tanks, and ships. The Swiss were close too, but they never really developed their own planes and stopped building their own tanks in the 1970s or 1980s, although you don't really need a lot of tanks in the mountains (plus they have no need for ships), so they're pretty close to going it alone as well.

I think if Canada really wanted to build it's own fighter it could, but it would take a pretty strong and intelligent personality to manage and organize the project (like that guy who built the Pentagon ahead of schedule and under budget!).

[Beefitarian]

I think if Canada really wanted to build it's own fighter it could,

I use to until I spent some time here. Now I believe they can't. I guess if they could they would.

[Colonel Sanders]

I can't believe this thread exists. And it blows my mind that it's 2 pages.

How about instead we discuss:

Ford Edsel as modern day alternative to Corvette ZR-1

The Corvette ZR1 engine is a heavily modified version of the
LS3, designated the LS9. Producing 638 hp and 604 ft-lb of torque, it is
the most powerful production Corvette to date.

or

The Lada as a modern day alternative to Mustang Shelby GT500

the 2013 Ford Shelby GT500 is the most potent Mustang
ever. The 351 cubic inches (5.75 l) supercharged V8 engine
produces 662 bhp and 631 lb-ft of torque, and a claimed top
speed of 202 miles per hour

[Beefitarian]

The lada. You think the Arrow was the same as a lada?

[SAR_YQQ]

We have signed treaties that allow US armed forces to come onto Canadian soil in undefined circumstances. We are now shipping almost every British Columbian merely accused of something to do with trans border marijuana charges to the US justice system, rather than try them for the laws they have broken in Canada. We are now going to allow armed police officers from the United States to patrol in US police cars on Canadian soil, with the right to shoot and kill Canadian citizens.
.

Complete and utter BS.

Now back to discussing how a 1950s variant of the Foxbat is a great idea - a much more believable story than what I quoted above.

[Colonel Sanders]

Do a little research. The Arrow was unmaintainable.

[Caracrane]

First fly-by wire back in the late 1950's..... Unbelievable solid airframe that they had plans for over Mach 3. I don't say rebuilding the CF-105 that we know but Canada should move on with their own fighter jet. But for the Arrow, I suggest you Kernel to buy the book collection which is called Destruction of a dream by Marc-Andre Valiquette.

Their was nothing left of this airplane by the way except an Orenda that was "stollen", you do copy and paste and put it in the Concorde.

Cause nobody but us is a potential custumer for the 35...Cheapest way would have been to go with the super Hornet I think.

[grimey]

The Lada as a modern day alternative to Mustang Shelby GT500

What kind of axle does the Lada have on the back end?

[Colonel Sanders]

One easily capable of taking 662 bhp.

[Beefitarian]

Do a little research. The Arrow was unmaintainable.

Nah, I'll accept it.

Canada, we've got good water Eh!

[frosti]

but Canada should move on with their own fighter jet.

Why.

Cause nobody but us is a potential custumer for the 35...Cheapest way would have been to go with the super Hornet I think.

U.S., U.K., Australia, Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Denmark, Norway, Israel and Japan are all customers. Who is going to buy a modernized MIG-31 built in Quebec, no one. The Super Hornet is dead.

[Beefitarian]

but Canada should move on with their own fighter jet.

Why.

The same reason guys driving fighters should fly often. The only way to get good at something is to do it. All the money spent on labour, research and development apart from materials stays in the country instead of being sent elsewhere. That reduces costs because now some of that money goes back to the taxes needed to provide said money. I know we can't build something as good as the F-35 right now, isn't that partially because we don't build any fighter jets at all? We can't even build Arrows this year.

The Arrow is Dolemite, every time someone talks about it it's better than before. It certainly seems like a decent product at the time and look at where all the engineer staff went after the program.

Since none exist, for all I know it could have been the Lada of it's time or it might have been the Avro Arrow of it's time.

[frosti]

but Canada should move on with their own fighter jet.

Why.

The same reason guys driving fighters should fly often. The only way to get good at something is to do it. All the money spent on labour, research and development apart from materials stays in the country instead of being sent elsewhere. That reduces costs because now some of that money goes back to the taxes needed to provide said money. I know we can't build something as good as the F-35 right now, isn't that partially because we don't build any fighter jets at all? We can't even build Arrows this year.

The Arrow is Dolemite, every time someone talks about it it's better than before. It certainly seems like a decent product at the time and look at where all the engineer staff went after the program.

Since none exist, for all I know it could have been the Lada of it's time or it might have been the Avro Arrow of it's time.

Like I said before, if someone privately wants to fund this thing or any other Canadian built fighter then let them. Despite what some politicians think, the defence budget is not a regional employment programme.

[Beefitarian]

If we just send money out of the country eventually we will run out and then the problem of what fighters to purchase will solve it's self.