Letter to Erica Usher of CIC

[trey kule]

I am not attempting to beg your question, but examples can be misleading if they do not accurately represent the question.

Mr. H. has defined, by application, reciprocity to be strictly between two companies and in a short time frame.
That is, if I understand him correctly, if Sunwing hires foreign seasonal pilots, than the foreign company must hire Canadian pilots the next year. That is not happening so it is unfair.

Lets look at a bit of a bigger picture for a moment..Perhaps for the next five or even ten years, as Sunwings grows and works through their business plan they will hire seasonal foreigners each year..Then as they get bigger, they will wet lease and send Canadian crews overseas so that the Canadian crews are working all year. That is reciprocity, but Mr. H wants to only use a short year by year or a few years of time frame. I do not believe he , (or myself) know Sunwings long term business plans.

Lets look at an even bigger picture, as our government does hopefully. If Canada starts to impose protectionist policies to satisfy one particular company, which is pretty much what is going on here despite the altrusitic rhetoric, then foreign governments might respond in kind. There are, on the balance far far more Canadian pilots working overseas than foreigners working in Canada. Politics is a funny thing, and a country that feels Canada is snubbing it, such as one of the big expat employers in the Asian market, may just put Canadians on its no hire list..Then you will have far more Canadians returning to Canada looking for seats..
And they are experienced, and, in many cases type rated. I can almost hear now, the howl that their return to Canada would cause when they get direct entry positions.
Mr. H , as far as I can tell, is concerned only about Air Transat. If his efforts result in a 200 or so expats returning home after losing their jobs it does not seem to concern him at all.
To understand it, now, let me give you an example. I recieved a PM from a somewhat upset pilot who suggested that no Canadian expats would ever be laid off overseas because they are so despartately short of flight crews...He really did not seem to get the picture that there are lots and lots of other countries that will fill the gap.. Europe right now, as a result of its P2F policies is awash in unemployed pilots, so to speak, They are going where there is work, and if a country sends Canadians home, they will fill the gap.

I hope this clarified my comments..This is not about all Canadian pilots. It is not about protecting pilots jobs in Canada. It is about Air Transit taking a licking from their competition. And to make it seem as more, and to represent it as other than that is not really fair, particularily when it stirs up the emotions of so many who damn anyone who dares to say there is a bit more to the whole question.

It is quite common. in the big ol aviation world to require a type rating to save training costs. Even more so if it is for seasonal and temporary work. This makes absolute sense to anyone who does not have a vested interest in a job and is not type rated. To argue the unfairness of this is almost laughable, except that all the career wannabees who see it as a stumbling block to their aspirations,
scream unfair...The government should pay for my rating (I like that one) or big bad Sunwings should pay to train and rate me for a seasonal job so I can be more employable after the season...

There is a theory regarding people's perceptions. that the more vested interest they have in the outcome, the less willing they are to accept facts that challange their perception. I am 22 months from retirement, and if my medical holds, I have a secure job..No vested interest in this at all
, other than when I see people attacking anyone who dares to disagree with what is being posted here, and the possibility if he succeeds that many many more Canadian pilots are going to be losing thier jobs to satisfy a few getting them.
Mr. H has done an admirable job of throwing lots of stuff at the wall and having some of it stick. He has done an excelent job of taking a competition issue between two or three companies and turning it into an issue for all Canadian pilots and garnering support on that basis.
Seriously, I admire him for his efforts. And his success at it. I have no respect whatsoever for the pilots who bought into it for more than what it was, and post rather emotionally charged reponses to anyone that challanges it. I think the term generally used for them is sheeple.

They will reap what they sow..


Cheers.

[FICU]

.

[FICU]

This is not about all Canadian pilots. It is not about protecting pilots jobs in Canada. It is about Air Transit taking a licking from their competition.

This is not about Transat and Sunwing this is about Canadian airlines hiring foreign pilots at an unacceptable level which is increasing year after year. This about Canadian airlines taking advantage of blatantly weak government regulatory oversight and building a business model based solely on hoping the government doesn't enforce the regulations they write. Airlines building their business to a level that they believe there is no way the government will act and if the government did they would threaten a massive economic hit again hoping the government looks the other way.

This is about stopping this escalation of Canadian companies using foreign type rated pilots over Canadians before it gets too far out of hand and starts to threaten other airlines and operations across the country.

The door needs to be shut and locked!

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Mr. H. has defined, by application, reciprocity to be strictly between two companies and in a short time frame.
That is, if I understand him correctly, if Sunwing hires foreign seasonal pilots, than the foreign company must hire Canadian pilots the next year. That is not happening so it is unfair..

I didn't, Immigration Canada did. I even provided the reference. And here it is again. I didn't dig this document up on my own, I didn't even know it existed until a professional, who does this for a living, showed me this document and explained to me that this was what Immigration Canada Officers used to evaluate work permit applications.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/ ... 01-eng.pdf

This chapter explains the Regulations and CIC policy with respect to temporary foreign workers. It
also provides guidelines that will assist officers in interpreting the Regulations and explain the
programs that fit under these Regulations.

It is not necessary that there be exact reciprocity (i.e. one for one exchange), but the
general order of magnitude of exchanges should be reasonably similar on an annual
basis. In assessing reciprocity, one would consider the relative number and percentage.
For example, for exchanges involving larger numbers of foreign nationals (e.g. greater
than 25), officers could require a higher minimum proportion of Canadians employed
abroad to foreign nationals employed in Canada (e.g. at least 75%) than for smaller
exchanges.

[RichAir]

Politics is a funny thing, and a country that feels Canada is snubbing it, such as one of the big expat employers in the Asian market, may just put Canadians on its no hire list..

If I understand what you say trey cool, by protecting our canadian seats from being taken by Czech pilots ie., will make asians ie. avoid hiring canadians. And, Germans being very protectionnist, can't actually fly as expats anywhere.

That may be your point of view, but I don't share it because I don't believe we have more expats flying in Europe than europpeans flying in Canada, and, I don't believe because we come to an agreement of real reprocity with Europeans, Asians and middle easterns will refrain hiring our people.

my two canadian cents

[termerair]

Good day Trey Kule

I respect your point of view but I totally disagree with your position.

Mr. H. has defined, by application, reciprocity to be strictly between two companies and in a short time frame.
That is, if I understand him correctly, if Sunwing hires foreign seasonal pilots, than the foreign company must hire Canadian pilots the next year. That is not happening so it is unfair.

Then would you be kind enough to explain us what is your undertanding of the reciprocity policies...?

For your information, here is a quote from the "Reciprocal employment, General guidelines R205(b), C20" as stated earlier by Gilles...

-It is not necessary that there be exact reciprocity (i.e. one for one exchange), but the general order of magnitude of exchanges should be reasonably similar on an annual basis.

- When organizations have a demonstrated history of reciprocal exchanges, they may be permitted some flexibility in the flow of exchange on an annual basis, as long as they are able to demonstrate that the exchanges are similar over a reasonable period of time (e.g.five years), there is a general neutral impact on the labour market.

Embarrassing...

Lets look at a bit of a bigger picture for a moment..Perhaps for the next five or even ten years, as Sunwings grows and works through their business plan they will hire seasonal foreigners each year..Then as they get bigger, they will wet lease and send Canadian crews overseas so that the Canadian crews are working all year. That is reciprocity, but Mr. H wants to only use a short year by year or a few years of time frame. I do not believe he , (or myself) know Sunwings long term business plans.

You are right nobody knows... I do not know... But what is the trend right now...? Is it really in favour of the Canadian pilots? I have my doubts. I wish the best to all the Canadian companies but I do not want to see the Canadian pilot group pay the price of unacceptable practices. And in my opinion we should certainly not give a chance to some companies and see what happens...

Lets look at an even bigger picture, as our government does hopefully. If Canada starts to impose protectionist policies to satisfy one particular company, which is pretty much what is going on here despite the altrusitic rhetoric, then foreign governments might respond in kind. There are, on the balance far far more Canadian pilots working overseas than foreigners working in Canada. Politics is a funny thing, and a country that feels Canada is snubbing it, such as one of the big expat employers in the Asian market, may just put Canadians on its no hire list..Then you will have far more Canadians returning to Canada looking for seats.. And they are experienced, and, in many cases type rated. I can almost hear now, the howl that their return to Canada would cause when they get direct entry positions.

Protectionism??? Against who? The protectionism I see should be directed towards some Canadian companies that are outsourcing the pilot supply... I hope the choice still belongs to Canada to decide who will be coming here to work or not... Nothing wrong with stopping the import of foreign workforce when you have qualified people in your own country, is it?

Mr. H , as far as I can tell, is concerned only about Air Transat. If his efforts result in a 200 or so expats returning home after losing their jobs it does not seem to concern him at all.

Thanks for being supportive! If Gilles was only concerned about Air Transat, he would not spend hours and hours of his own time digging into our complex government policies regarding immigration and labour market. Maybe the result of his efforts will be to give jobs to currently laid off experienced Canadian pilots or even Canadian expats who are willing to come back. This is not a real option nowadays...!

I recieved a PM from a somewhat upset pilot who suggested that no Canadian expats would ever be laid off overseas because they are so despartately short of flight crews...He really did not seem to get the picture that there are lots and lots of other countries that will fill the gap.. Europe right now, as a result of its P2F policies is awash in unemployed pilots, so to speak, They are going where there is work, and if a country sends Canadians home, they will fill the gap.

Europe is full of unexperienced unemployed pilots, that's for sure! I do agree with the somewhat upset pilot. Canadian expats are not loosing their jobs as long as there is a demand for qualified and experienced flight crews. Someday the gap will be filled with local pilots not unexperienced European or other foreigners!

It is quite common. in the big ol aviation world to require a type rating to save training costs. Even more so if it is for seasonal and temporary work. This makes absolute sense to anyone who does not have a vested interest in a job and is not type rated. To argue the unfairness of this is almost laughable, except that all the career wannabees who see it as a stumbling block to their aspirations,
scream unfair...The government should pay for my rating (I like that one) or big bad Sunwings should pay to train and rate me for a seasonal job so I can be more employable after the season...

Are you saying it is finally normal that an airline does not train their pilots? Maybe be the training your own workforce should be part of the operational costs like in every other company and industry, no?

There is a theory regarding people's perceptions. that the more vested interest they have in the outcome, the less willing they are to accept facts that challange their perception. I am 22 months from retirement, and if my medical holds, I have a secure job..No vested interest in this at all, other than when I see people attacking anyone who dares to disagree with what is being posted here, and the possibility if he succeeds that many many more Canadian pilots are going to be losing thier jobs to satisfy a few getting them.

At first, when I read your post, I thought this was coming from a 22 year old wannabee who is willing to accept anything to reach his goal. But then I read you are only 22 months from retirement. And this makes me quite sad that someone who has probably been in the industry for many decades could think the way you do. Thanks for supporting the fight towards a better Canadian aviation industry.

Once again let me assure you I respect your views.

T.

[trey kule]

When we do not have a crystal ball, predictions can get iffy, and even more iffy if we let our bias cloud our logic.I am not immune to bias, and there are some good points being made. The original issue I took was the contrarian approach based on the rather emotional posts damning anyone who dared to disagree.
I perceive the trend on a bit longer term, I think, and see it going a different way.

Yes I am in a minority. And maybe I am all turned around on the issue, but I suspect that more than a bit of the perception of that is based on the fact I am not posting what people want to read. It is a tough position to be in when your opinion is not the popular one. People want to dismiss what they dont want to read, and then look for arguments to support their position.

It is very much about just a few companies that use seasonal pilots at this time and are not in a position yet to justify a year round fleet. When they do get to that stage, it will justify them hiring full time pilots and becoming the company that sends aircraft to Europe (with Canadian crews) in the off season. For now, it makes absolute business sense to do it the way they are doing it. And while I am in the minority based on the pilot group, I think those that make and enforce the policies and regulations see it much the same way.
I wonder who will pick up the torch when in a few years maybe some of these companies will have expanded their fleets and find that the Canadian pilots are not welcome on wet leases during the off season

One of the major issues here is exactly what a qualified pilot is...That is , in my opinion, being conveniently downplayed or marginalized. Seems if you have a license that is enough..The regulations are pretty clear and straightforward about it.

In any event I will go back to my rocking chair and wait to see how the whole thing plays out.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

There are some labour market issues that we have raised with government and on which we have recommendations. One in particular is the increasing employment of foreign pilots to operate Canadian aircraft in our busy winter charter season. In the past, this has been done in enshrined reciprocal agreements with Canadian charter operators in a very symbiotic relationship whereby our busy winter season is served by foreign pilots operating aircraft here in Canada and, in turn, in the busy European summer season, Canadian pilots have worked in the U.K. predominantly but elsewhere as well to help them out in their busy season. By virtue of this, both parties benefit. There are no layoffs in slow seasons for one side or the other, and it has been very good. What we see happening now is that we are missing that enshrinement of reciprocity.

To give you an example, my information tells me that Sunwing Airlines this winter will employ over 200 foreign pilots in its charter operations, which I believe would place it in the position of having more foreign pilots than Canadian pilots. If we did not have a source of Canadian pilots available to us, this might make sense, but we do. We have Canadian pilots who are eager to perform this work but are being denied access to these jobs by virtue of their lack of holding a specific type endorsement for this aircraft. In this case, it is a 737 new generation, 737NG. You have to understand how an airline transport licence works. The ATPL licences the pilot to operate virtually any aircraft on the planet except for high performance jet aircraft or helicopters, unless it is specifically annotated, and the space shuttle, but anything else is within that person's competence to operate. However, for any aircraft over it 12,500 kilos, the person must have a specific type of endorsement and training on that specific type of aircraft. You have endorsements to the licence which licence the pilot to operate whichever type of endorsed aircraft he or she may be trained on. By advertising for type-rated 737NG pilots, you are excluding all of the ATPL pilots in Canada who do not possess that endorsement, and this is the basis on which the operators are saying they have no Canadian labour available and have to bring these people in from overseas. They are really avoiding the cost of training Canadians, because there are licensed Canadian pilots who are perfectly qualified to do that work. They simply lack the training.

I do not know, but I suspect that there is no difference in the amount that these operators are charging to the tour companies for providing them the lift, but they are avoiding the cost of training, and it is significant.

These types of endorsements typically cost $25,000 to $40,000, depending on the type of aircraft. However, what operators have done in the past to protect themselves is they have asked for a commitment of time from the pilot, after having been trained on the new aircraft to commit a period of time to them for which they will remain in the employ of that carrier so the carrier realizes the appropriate return on their investment, which is entirely reasonable. That is not even an option here today.

What is happening, then, is in the case of the failure of Skyservice, Canadian pilots have been on EI rolls, or they have left the industry because they have not been able to find work, or they have left the country to find gainful employment. We find many of them working now in the Middle East or in the Asia Pacific, those two regions predominantly, but there are other places where they have found employment. The net effect to the Canadian industry is that we have a tremendous brain drain happening here. The human resources and skills are leaving the country. It is a loss of human capital to our nation. These are unique skills and experience which are reposed in a small community. There are only 6,000 or 7,000 of us in the whole country who do this work. By losing this human capital, then, we are losing an incredible repository of the skills, knowledge, experience and judgment.

To give you an example, I am a military-trained pilot. The military spent over $1 million for each of us to get us to wing standard. Since then, we develop ourselves all the time. We are constantly renewing our skills. Our industry is constantly changing. Our work is constantly changing. We lose that. We lose the tax revenue for those people who would otherwise be paying for these good jobs in Canada. How are we replacing them? We are replacing them with foreign pilots to operate our aircraft for which we realize no tax revenue to the Government of Canada. Furthermore, we stagnate the labour market in our industry. There is no opportunity for progression for those who are already in it to move up to more complex aircraft or more responsibility as a captain, for instance, but ultimately we bar entry for new folks who want to be part of this industry. We think this is poor public policy, and it is something specifically that we think needs to be examined quickly.

Testimony by Paul Strachan, President of ACPA, in front of the Senate Transport Committee, on Oct 26, 2011.
Biased ? Does he work for Air Transat ?

One of the major issues here is exactly what a qualified pilot is...That is , in my opinion, being conveniently downplayed or marginalized. Seems if you have a license that is enough..The regulations are pretty clear and straightforward about it.

I can't find the source right now, but someone, it's either ALPA's Dan Adamus or ACPA's PAul Strachan once said that if Air Canada was to shut-down tomorrow, none of Air Canada's 3200 pilots would qualify to work at Canjet or Sunwing in the winter for none have a 737NG type-rating, and these airlines would still be allowed to hire type rated foreigners instead of any of the 3200 un-employed Air Canada pilots.

It is in light of this that we must ask ourselves what a qualified pilot is. The rules allow Airlines to employ foreign pilots either inside an equal reciprocity deal with a foreign airline, or when there is a labour shortage in Canada.

There is no equal reeciprocty and there is no labour shortage.

Nowhere do the laws and regulations allow for Airlines to hire foreign worker to save money and bring the costs down, which is what is really going on here. The government is allowing some airlines to make use of foreign labour in order to bring cost down in order to undercut other airlines that make use of Canadian labour.

What kind of sound government policy is this ?

[trey kule]

I was going to let this bone go, but I guess I am a bit of a pit bull.

If the NG rating is not a big deal, why do you not press TC to allow equivalency..Problem solved, as there would be many qualified Canadian pilots would there not?

Of course Sunwings is taking the opportunity to reduce training costs. What you refer to as an unfair advantage some might call a smart buisness decision. And I am willing to bet in a flash if Air Transit or anyone else could work this into their business model we would not be seeing these posts.. Sunwing looked at the regulations. Correctly determined that the NG rating was really the necessary qualification and took advantage of it. Some people may consider that a correct and smart business decision.
I would expect you would admit that you initially went at this issue with a great deal of enthusiasm and little knowledge, and I suspect you have gone through a steep learning curve. There still me a bit more to it. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe before you starting stirring the pot you had done all this in depth research.

In any event, as I am constantly being reminded by the mob, I am just a small disagreeable minority so may I suggest you preach to the choir and I will refraim from further posting on the matter, unless someone else wants to make it personal

As a last kick at the can, I do think I could debate this well from you side, but I might have approached it a bit differently...Maybe your approach is better

[fingersmac]

Lets look at an even bigger picture, as our government does hopefully. If Canada starts to impose protectionist policies to satisfy one particular company, which is pretty much what is going on here despite the altrusitic rhetoric, then foreign governments might respond in kind.

How have Canadian-UAE relations been over recent years? Emirates and Etihad continue to hire and employ Canadians despite the strained relationship between the two countries. Forcing Canadian companies to abide by the rules when it comes to temporary foreign workers will not affect Canadian pilots flying overseas. What will affect them is if and when there are enough local pilots to replace them.

It is quite common. in the big ol aviation world to require a type rating to save training costs.

But it is NOT common in the Canadian aviation industry.

[sierakiloyankee]

1- Using the argument that Canadian abroad will be penalize by the our Canadian government doing their job, by restricting non-canadian to work in canada is absolutely a delusion. The strategy use by someone here in his post is to me, simply a way to try to find supporters among those canadian abroad. But like many have said here , there is absolutly no link in that way, has lots of countries NEED these guys and again if they one day loose their job over there , it will be for the fact that locals are now able to fill the gap.

2- Why would the government do anything... Well because their first role when we elect them, is to make sure the most CANADIAN get the best possible job, bringing home the most they can , and that for the most possible number of CANADIANS. That means , when I contribute with my well paid job to taxes in canada, every canadian benefits from the fact that I have a good earning job and that my share to the Canadian economy is the biggest possible. When Sunwing / Canjet use their strategy only a few are really part of that wheel in Canada. Lots of money from canadian passengers, are going abroad resulting in a lost of richness in canada toward an other country. It has nothing to do with competition. Canadian pilots abroad in large majority are living in the country they work in and if that country dont ask them to pay taxes overthere, well ... it tells you a lot on the fact of their presence over there. Shall we accept to let a small group of people benefit from the fact that our government is not doing a good job on this issus so far... not at all !!

3- If people you are not convice that this issue is not affecting every canadian. Lets just see it this way. When a passenger save a couple of buck on a trip with airlines that have no goal other than to make a limited canadian benefit from their operation, and contribute in the migration of the richness of canadian towards other countries , just to benefit a few here and spread the rest to foreign interest, while we can and should keep that richness to all canadian. Well has this is the job of our elected canadian government.

Finaly the argument that the customers are winning from this battle, well lets all rethink again... The more this customer see is money go abroad the closer he is getting from loosing richness.