Uncle Milty at it again. My crystal ball is a bit hazy, but didn't ACPA set the stage for this by ditching formula pay to avoid pay equality when blue and red merged? What's worse than RM's bad faith bargaining is the absolute stupidity of line pilots on how these processes work.
I'm tired of pilots talking about other pilots being overpaid. If you don't think you are worth much, enjoy your career at Westjet. The big difference between WJ and Walmart is Walmart employees know they are pawns.
Air Canada and the Pliots at it again....
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
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complexintentions
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2186
- Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
- Location: of my pants is unknown.
You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. Period.
This whole argument is stupidly simplistic without any real facts and figures anyway. Anyone posting here, on the ACPA bargaining committee? In ACE senior management? I doubt it. Most of it just sounds like simple union-bashing (*yawn*) and race-to-the-bottom mentality.
Gee, the industry has changed?! No sh&t Sherlock!! But that doesn't mean workers have to ACCEPT the Walmatization of our industry in meek submission. Yes, you have to pick your battles. You also have to stand up for what you think is right.
It's patently ludicrous to toss around stuff like "hey, if you can't make it on $XXX/month, you should do it for something else...". An income is a relative thing, 10k/month is a ton of money for one job, and a shitty wage for another. What you think of the SUM of money is your opinion - but deciding that it's arbitrarily high - FOR YOUR OWN PROFESSION - my gawd, how Canadian! How drag-you-down-to-my-level-instead-of aspiring-to-reach-yours!! In spite of what you think - and believe me, I don't have a high opinion of Mr. Hargrove et al - MOST unions want what's best for their employees. And sometimes that means fighting for it. Which used to be a Canadian trait too, but sadly is lacking these days.
B612 said it well - if you want to make vastly less than working at AC, there are lots of places where you'll be happy - fill yer boots. But expect a...animated...response from those who are a tad more cynical and think that most management pleas of poverty are bit more self-serving. This is perhaps based on past experiences.
The AC/ex-CDN have given enough. No one's asking anyone else to walk their picket line - but if your only input is to start a boring rant against unions and unionized employees, please, go back to your employment paradise and be happy you are free of the fetters of socialized employment. Me, while my own relationships with unions have been uneasy at times, I think the deck is stacked against workers globally enough as it is.
This whole argument is stupidly simplistic without any real facts and figures anyway. Anyone posting here, on the ACPA bargaining committee? In ACE senior management? I doubt it. Most of it just sounds like simple union-bashing (*yawn*) and race-to-the-bottom mentality.
Gee, the industry has changed?! No sh&t Sherlock!! But that doesn't mean workers have to ACCEPT the Walmatization of our industry in meek submission. Yes, you have to pick your battles. You also have to stand up for what you think is right.
It's patently ludicrous to toss around stuff like "hey, if you can't make it on $XXX/month, you should do it for something else...". An income is a relative thing, 10k/month is a ton of money for one job, and a shitty wage for another. What you think of the SUM of money is your opinion - but deciding that it's arbitrarily high - FOR YOUR OWN PROFESSION - my gawd, how Canadian! How drag-you-down-to-my-level-instead-of aspiring-to-reach-yours!! In spite of what you think - and believe me, I don't have a high opinion of Mr. Hargrove et al - MOST unions want what's best for their employees. And sometimes that means fighting for it. Which used to be a Canadian trait too, but sadly is lacking these days.
B612 said it well - if you want to make vastly less than working at AC, there are lots of places where you'll be happy - fill yer boots. But expect a...animated...response from those who are a tad more cynical and think that most management pleas of poverty are bit more self-serving. This is perhaps based on past experiences.
The AC/ex-CDN have given enough. No one's asking anyone else to walk their picket line - but if your only input is to start a boring rant against unions and unionized employees, please, go back to your employment paradise and be happy you are free of the fetters of socialized employment. Me, while my own relationships with unions have been uneasy at times, I think the deck is stacked against workers globally enough as it is.
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Demosthenes
- Rank 1
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 2:08 pm
- Location: Canada
Various compaines rape pilots thourgh the first 50% of their careers. Is it any surprise that when you finally get to a company where the pilts have a say (ie. Unionized) that the pilots don't finallly try to rape the company?
C'mon guys, we all know that pilots are our own worst enemies. We just won't admit it to ourselves.
D.
C'mon guys, we all know that pilots are our own worst enemies. We just won't admit it to ourselves.
D.
Altitude, Airspeed and Brains,
You always need at least two...
You always need at least two...
Well put, complexintentions.
Not too many folks can see this as further strong-arming by the company, eh? When have these guys given up enough? Seems to me that the company did EXACTLY this six months back or so. They sent a letter to the union saying, NICE GOING... we're not getting more '67s thanks to you guys... nice going, stupid pilots! And then not too far down the line... surprise!! HUGE aircraft order.
Not to open a whole new can of worms and start an argument, but I for one think that we actually deserve a more appreciable salary, and that the folks at AC have given up enough.
IMHO.
Not too many folks can see this as further strong-arming by the company, eh? When have these guys given up enough? Seems to me that the company did EXACTLY this six months back or so. They sent a letter to the union saying, NICE GOING... we're not getting more '67s thanks to you guys... nice going, stupid pilots! And then not too far down the line... surprise!! HUGE aircraft order.
Not to open a whole new can of worms and start an argument, but I for one think that we actually deserve a more appreciable salary, and that the folks at AC have given up enough.
IMHO.
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talkinghead
- Rank 4
- Posts: 237
- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:14 am
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Jaques Strappe
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1847
- Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:34 pm
- Location: YYZ
There are some pretty stupid and ignorant comments on this thread.
Most of you are assuming that this whole issue is money related. While I would bet that it will have a bearing on things, it is not the deal breaker.
The issue, once again among other things, is crew rest. Milton wants to buy the longest range aircraft in the world and have the off duty resting pilot in a jumpseat rather than a bunk. This becomes a safety issue and quite frankly, the order should be cancelled if it is not going to be done right. Unions are not there to just grab money. They realize the changing landscape but will not sacrifice safety. If Milton had it his way, everything would be just TC standard which as most of you know, is not very high.
You guys with your idiotic claims of not being able to live on 15K per month, do nothing but shine the spotlight on your own ignorance. This is a typical Milton move in the press where he doesn't tell you the whole story and you guys take the bait like a school of starving trout.
Most of you are assuming that this whole issue is money related. While I would bet that it will have a bearing on things, it is not the deal breaker.
The issue, once again among other things, is crew rest. Milton wants to buy the longest range aircraft in the world and have the off duty resting pilot in a jumpseat rather than a bunk. This becomes a safety issue and quite frankly, the order should be cancelled if it is not going to be done right. Unions are not there to just grab money. They realize the changing landscape but will not sacrifice safety. If Milton had it his way, everything would be just TC standard which as most of you know, is not very high.
You guys with your idiotic claims of not being able to live on 15K per month, do nothing but shine the spotlight on your own ignorance. This is a typical Milton move in the press where he doesn't tell you the whole story and you guys take the bait like a school of starving trout.
Jaques
Without exposing to the world what actually goes on and what ever F/A and first class passenger see on the long haul perhaps the pilot group had better learn how to police themselves on the proper use of the rest period. This is the same old story of pilots shooting themselves in the foot once again. Does the old adage “use it or lose it” come to mind.
Oh by the way the only way to fly long haul IMHO is to have a bunk.
Without exposing to the world what actually goes on and what ever F/A and first class passenger see on the long haul perhaps the pilot group had better learn how to police themselves on the proper use of the rest period. This is the same old story of pilots shooting themselves in the foot once again. Does the old adage “use it or lose it” come to mind.
Oh by the way the only way to fly long haul IMHO is to have a bunk.
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Jaques Strappe
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1847
- Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:34 pm
- Location: YYZ
Not sure I understand Rebel. Even in our own ranks, guys who don't fly long Haul do not understand how imperative that crew rest is.
Tonight I am heading to Tel Aviv and that bunk is a must. I don't know of anyone who does not use it. Can you imagine Toronto-Capetown without a bunk facility? That would be almost 24 hours from leaving your driveway to entering your hotel room. Coming home, can you imagine the liability when people fall asleep at the wheel and take out a family on the highway?
In general, people don't think of these issues. I hear all these pilots on here bitching about pay and working conditions yet they instantly jump on a union after reading a snippet of information. I am not defending unions so much as trying to point out that people who want to be treated as professionals should act that way.
Tonight I am heading to Tel Aviv and that bunk is a must. I don't know of anyone who does not use it. Can you imagine Toronto-Capetown without a bunk facility? That would be almost 24 hours from leaving your driveway to entering your hotel room. Coming home, can you imagine the liability when people fall asleep at the wheel and take out a family on the highway?
In general, people don't think of these issues. I hear all these pilots on here bitching about pay and working conditions yet they instantly jump on a union after reading a snippet of information. I am not defending unions so much as trying to point out that people who want to be treated as professionals should act that way.
Air Canada and ACPA reach agreement on outstanding issues relating to new wide-body aircraft
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/arch ... c9915.html
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/arch ... c9915.html
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b767jetmec
- Rank 2
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:56 am
- Location: North of Nowhere
I for one am very happy to hear about this agreement. I`m not going to point fingers because that is unproductive and generates a lot of animousity, it just good to know, the bickering will stop. It`s time AC moves forward.
Looks like I can now bid for the B777 endorsement.
Looks like I can now bid for the B777 endorsement.
Boeing just does it better!
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Mitch Cronin
- Rank 8
- Posts: 914
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:15 am
- Location: Right beside my dog again...
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b767jetmec
- Rank 2
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:56 am
- Location: North of Nowhere
Mitch...Red, Blue, it don`t matter to me, we are both the same, Except that I think I got the edge on you, looks wise!Mitch Cronin wrote:I'm hoping I can join you for that.... may be high hopes though, given my lesser-than, used-to-be-blue status...b767jetmec wrote: Looks like I can now bid for the B777 endorsement.
Happy to hear there's a deal on the table, but it still needs ratifying.
Boeing just does it better!
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Mitch Cronin
- Rank 8
- Posts: 914
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:15 am
- Location: Right beside my dog again...
