Canjet going under (again)?

[Old fella]

Jeez……… this is a public forum and if you want to destroy confidence in your airline (Canjet), you are going about it the right way by airing yer dirty laundry in public. If vacationers (southern winter types) get wind of this – and they will, it will be “exit, stage left” on anything to do with CanJet

I agree that it's kind of crazy that we have chosen to discuss our fate on Avcanada especially when we have our own Alpa chat room. The last few pages is probably the most dialogue our fractioned pilot group has had since it's inception. Divided we fall I suppose.
Passengers needn't worry about their vacations as Transat will provide the lift one way or another and they probably won't even notice the hand over other than the change in logo on the tail. Those 737's will continue to fly it's just a matter of who's operating them.

My education isn’t in Economics nor am I a Business Analyst but being 63yrs old(plenty of us around with some disposable income(not overly flush), liking warm sunny WX and not overly concerned with luxury(5star accommodation not a priority), one would think there is a market available with a corresponding price. As you indicated, who provides this service, with what equipment, under whatever tail logo, who knows? I don’t know your airline, never flown on it and have no axe to grind – why would I but here’s hoping you continue to tap into our market in years to come.

[Scuba_Steve]

I have yet to see any unprofessional comments from any TS pilots... though perhaps I'm reading the wrong threads.

At the meetings with TS management it was made very clear that there was no final decision regarding the CJ contact and the OTP and customer satisfaction levels from CJ were praised....and I did not hear a single disparaging remark towards CJ from anyone at the closed meeting, the airline is looking to cut costs so they can compete on an ever more crowded market, if we can operate the 73's cheaper then we'll get them and if we can't then we won't.....time will tell

So it ain't over till the fat lady sings, I wish you all well..

And this is coming from a Furloughed TS pilot who's only hope of going back to TS is them taking on the 737 Flying...

Hell maybe we'll all be interviewing for Rouge in the next year....I have no idea how this will transpire in the meantime I'll keep making mortgage payments and hoping this industry settles down a bit before I make my next move.

Best of luck to everyone at CJ, staring down a layoff is not something I'd wish on anyone...

Cheers

[bigskyjoc]

Best of luck to all those at Canjet. But did you really think working for Ken Rowe and Canjet was going to take you to retirement?

[Realitychex]

Interesting points Goose...I agree...there is no REAL true low-cost airline in Canada. WJ started off as such but their fares (and even service levels) are now pretty on par, if not more expensive than AC! Rouge will be just another "flash-in-the-pan" for AC just like Tango & Zip were.

It's charters galore right now and with the success of Porter, the regional market is also becomming heavily saturated with many hoping to emulate their success. Canjet & Jazz have lost the most in all of this, and I dont see it getting any better for either. AC seems to be slowly distancing itself from Jazz, and cozying upto Scab Regional. Canjet's future without Transat is also looking pretty bleak.

Some say that TS is dangling the 737 carrot in front of their faces for the double-purpose of squeezing further concessions from it's crews AND also to get CJ to lower their price. Personally, I dont think TS can operate the 737 any leaner than CJ, even if they got their $20M in concessions they are looking for...Dont forget they previously parted ways with the 737's (& the A320's they brought frm France) years ago for that reason. Their strong-hold has always been trans-atlantic & long-haul, where they make their bread & butter...especially with Club class.

Canjet on the other hand needs to diversify as I previously mentioned in another thread, but...why take risks in an already saturated market? Better to liquidate (sub-lease the fleet), lay-off and perhaps re-enter the game under better conditions as they have done in the past. It sucks for us in terms of job security but it is a "game plan" that has seen CJ thru a botched merger with C3, 911, 2 recessions, a hijacking, and losing their sked biz to WJ.

If that is their business plan or if they have something else up their sleeve, I just wish they would keep everyone in the loop. When my previous company shut down a division and things were looking grim, an emergency hangar meeting was scheduled for all employees & they laid all their cards on the table. They said point blank its going to get worse before it gets better. Those that stayed & toughed it out later reeped the rewards & those that didnt went elsewhere to pursue their careers. It's the silence & being kept in the dark at CJ that is most frustrating I must say.

My girlfriend is inflight & its even worse for them as a huge chunk of them are seasonal & have very limited recall rights. She mentions they always get treated like second class citizens & are always finding things out through the news. She was a wreck after her last pairing as the agents told her there will be no CJ next year...not a very productive atmosphere to work in & very bad for business. They need to let us know what the deal is...good or bad, we need to know because we all have lives to live & bills to pay.

Success of Porter?

[YHZGOOSE]

And let's not forget that Canjet has done TREMENDOUS damage to Air Transat's reputation in the past few years (not attaking anybody here, this is out of pilot's hands). So this issue, among others, is obviously a factor in their decesion to think about brining the flying in-house.

What TREMENDOUS damage to Transats reputation are you speaking of exactly? Are we back to the topic of the foreign pilot subject? Tansats reputation is not adversly affected by any other airline they use for lift.

[YHZGOOSE]

Kag, can you explain why there seem to be so many westjetters that express joy at the very idea of other airlines failing? (Air Canada, porter, transat, canjet, etc)

Or is it just the ones that post on avcanada?

[DeltaHotel]

And let's not forget that Canjet has done TREMENDOUS damage to Air Transat's reputation in the past few years (not attaking anybody here, this is out of pilot's hands). So this issue, among others, is obviously a factor in their decesion to think about brining the flying in-house.

What TREMENDOUS damage to Transats reputation are you speaking of exactly? Are we back to the topic of the foreign pilot subject? Tansats reputation is not adversly affected by any other airline they use for lift.

I'm talking about passengers booking Club Class seats or ''option plus'' and not be able to benefits from the perks they paid for.
Paying for seat selection and ending up on a narrow-body without the seats the wanted.
General on-time performence
Overall cabin dissapointing to passengers
And the service which was far from the Air Transat service ...

Again, no attack here on pilots because non of the above mentionned is controlled by any of us. Transat is as much to blame as Canjet in this mess.
There's a reason why Ken Rowe can operate the 737s so cheap .... it is a cheap service. And when they're not your clients. Who cares really.

[buzzjob]

I'm talking about passengers booking Club Class seats or ''option plus'' and not be able to benefits from the perks they paid for.
Paying for seat selection and ending up on a narrow-body without the seats the wanted.
General on-time performence
Overall cabin dissapointing to passengers
And the service which was far from the Air Transat service ...

Again, no attack here on pilots because non of the above mentionned is controlled by any of us. Transat is as much to blame as Canjet in this mess.
There's a reason why Ken Rowe can operate the 737s so cheap .... it is a cheap service. And when they're not your clients. Who cares really.

Now you are slinging sh1t. I would love to see where your info comes from....

You cannot book Club Class on a Canjet operated flight....Canjet Select yes.
Unless Transat changes the aircraft type the flight is operated by AT or C6 so you don't just "end up on a narrow body for no reason"
The last time I checked our on-time performance was in the high 90%.
I personally say goodbye to the passengers as they disembark the aircraft. On the whole, the large majority are very happy with the Canjet product and service.

Have you ever been on a Canjet flight? As far as I know, the service is exactly the same as AT, because that's what Transat wants. Canjet gives the service that Transat wants, not what Canjet wants to offer.

Get your facts straight.

Canjet is not going anywhere BTW!

[andy_mtl]

Hey fellow canjetters

anyone remembers maybe a year and a half ago when it was said: the halifax fa base would have never been closed! look what happened a few months after....
news before new years...
now emails not working from florida......

start adding up the facts, maybe i am totally wrong, in which case its better from everyone, but let s face it, it s not looking too good.

Sky-jet has a good point, and i guess only a few more weeks will tell.

and some of you will tell me: oh, but there is more work that can be found, then why hasnt it been found yet? i m sure it s in everyone s benefit if the company grows, instead than shrinking year by year( see fleet size from 2009 to now)

thats just my 02 cents

[Sky-Jet]

And let's not forget that Canjet has done TREMENDOUS damage to Air Transat's reputation in the past few years (not attaking anybody here, this is out of pilot's hands). So this issue, among others, is obviously a factor in their decesion to think about brining the flying in-house.

Sick and tired of this bs line...mostly from bitter protectionist territorial TS dogs that want their cake and to eat it too!

Just what exactly is it that Transat is not happy with?

Our OTP is better than their own bloody airline!

My better half tells me that Cabin Services at Canjet are dictated by (and identical to) what is offerred on Transat...right down to the brand of wine that is served! Canjet Select mirrors exactly what Option Plus is. The only thing lacking at Canjet is a seperate Club Class cabin, and perhaps leg-room/seat-pitch...but, once again..all things including aircraft configuration/seat-pitch are dictated by Transat...and..you get what you pay for.

I too also stand at the forward to say my good-bye's, and the consensus by the passengers on their flight are great...aside from the regular ignoranus who thinks things like weather delays are the airlines fault.

Yes..in the beginning there were a lot of hiccups and disatisfaction but Canjet has definately come a long way in bridging the "service-gap" between them and Transat. A lot has been done to harmonize both products, and aside from crew uniforms and aircraft paintjobs, the Transat and Canjet product would be indistinguishable to passengers.

Let's not forget Transat operated their own 737-400's in the late 90's up until 2000 (remember the flying tampon? lol). In 2004 they tried it again with narrow-bodies by bringing over A320's from Star Airlines. In both instances, the narrow-bodies were not economically feasible and that was nearly a decade ago...so with taking "cost-creep" into account, what would make them think they could do it cheaper internally this time around? Even $20M in internal savings is not going to cut-it. The more I think about it, the more it all sounds like a negotiating tactic by Transat to scrooge their employees & lower Canjet's price.

That being said however, we should not be so naive in thinking Transat has "nowhere to go but Canjet". Their narrow-body contract is very lucrative and others like Enerjet & Flair are just chomping at the bit. My concern as I stated before is Canjet's own business model. Are we doing enough to retain this contract, and weather TS does bring it in-house or the flying goes elsewhere...what then for Canjet?

Heard today from a friend in YHZ that none of the leases on the office spaces in the out-bases have been renewed for next year (YUL,YYZ,YVR)...so..it is indeed not looking too good at this point and still no straight answer from management!

[buzzjob]

Heard today from a friend in YHZ that none of the leases on the office spaces in the out-bases have been renewed for next year (YUL,YYZ,YVR)...so..it is indeed not looking too good at this point and still no straight answer from management!

Why would you turn this into a doom and gloom spin? Why would the company sign leases if they don't have a contract?? Its not negative it is business!

Management has made a statement, and it sounded pretty straight forward to me...Transat has not signed the contract yet...what else do you want to know?

Either Transat signs with Canjet or the next company will be hiring us...

[hogster330]

I work at Air Transat and have for a long time. We operated the Virgin 737s for a couple of winters and Star Airlines 320s for one winter. Those ops had nothing to do with our ability to run a profitable Narrowbody fleet but rather it was to help out a sister company in Europe that had no work for them and we would lessen the losses by generating revenue with those A/C. I was at the recent meetings and there was no slagging of Canjet. If employees accept some work concessions, then we will operate a Narrowbody fleet ant the end of the Canjet contract. If the concessions are not accepted the Canjet contract will get extended. Nobody is trying to screw anyone, we have hundreds of laid off FAs and 50+ pilots and this will give them work and take care of anymore widebody reductions. Its just business and usually airline crews take it on the chin somewhere

[TopperHarley]

At the meeting, CJ's performance was indeed praised. Management had very positive things to say about the work you guys have been doing for us.

Nobody knows what's going to happen. My job is on the line here, but even if we do get the 737s, it's not going to feel like much of a celebration since I know that somewhere else there will be fellow pilots who could be facing a layoff. Not exactly a win-win situation.

I hope for the best for everyone and hope we can continue to act like professionals to one another.

[S. Holder]

I'm new to posting here but not really new to any of this. This forum in particular intrigues me. All this back and forth dribble over an article in the Gazette that wasn't even picked up by say.....The Globe, The Post, FT, or even the Star. I was told I would have a good laugh if I came in here and I must say you people don't disappoint. You would never know you all have the same profession. Some posts are intelligent but most are idiotic and just out right mean. I have read some other forums and I find basically the same recurring theme over and over, Canadian pilots just love it when another is close to failure or just plain dead and gone. I don't understand.

First of all, Canjet does not work for AirTransat, they work for TransatAt. Transat At is I must mention a public company. Quick lesson in public companies.....THEY ONLY CARE ABOUT ONE THING. MONEY They don't care about pilots, engineers, flight attendants, basically they just dont care about any of you. if you think differently then you should return to school for a spell. Second, Sunwing Airlines provides lift for Sunwing Vacations. While Sunwing is not a public company it is run by The Hunters and TUI. If you think Sunwing cares about anything other than the above mentioned, look again. They have over 150 foreign pilots flying for them. I'm sure we can all agree it is not for their looks. Again, they don't care about you. It's all about money. AirCanada same same. Getting SkyRegional to fly for them at 40% less cost than they can do it.
WestJet, they can drink as much Kool aid as you guys put it, but pay cuts are coming for them too.

All of these have a glaring commonality..the people who run all these shows sit in Ruth's Chris sipping on expensive wine enjoying a wonderful meal while they laugh at all of you.
They even have the government on their side. Don't believe me. Just ask anyone involved with the union at AC. Or just ask any one of the migrant cabbage pickers flying aircraft for Sunwing.

What amuses me the me the most is, you all sit here and fight over jobs that pay less than most refugees collect in welfare have ever decreasing benefits and the longevity of a gnat in a windstorm, and continue to blame everybody else for your problems.

Try a little unity.......seems to work for them.

All the best.

[tbaylx]

Well said S Holder..and painfully true. I'm always amazed at how supposed professionals are so eager to criticize others and gleefully predict their demise while gloating over the current performance of their airline, only to watch themselves fall into the same situation years later.

Short term quarter to quarter profits are all that matter to senior management and shareholders now. Corporations that used to make $50 on a widget moved the manufacturing overseas and made $300 on the same widget. Unfortunately at the expense of the middle class manufacturing jobs. Years later said companies are wondering why no one can afford to buy their widgets anymore. In the meantime senior management have collected huge performance bonuses and are retiring comfortably. Aviation is in a similar downward spiral. We consume at the same rate as before though, fueled by cheap credit and debt. Eventually the unsustainability of it all will force changes to the entire system, but not before we endure a lot more pain.

In the meantime companies will continue to pay as little as they can get away with and still find pilots eager for such a great "opportunity". By the looks of things we haven't reached a low enough level yet for any significant changes to occur.

[S. Holder]

AirTransat pilots are going to cut off their nose just to spite their face. They are going to sell their souls just to do the flying themselves. They may think that in time they will recoup the lost wages but alas it will never happen. Frankly I would be surprised if Canjet lost the contract with Transat At. Effectively AirTransat is no different than Canjet in that they simply provide lift for Transat At. Just because they share a name means nothing. If Transat At goes with Air Transat they will be putting all their eggs in one basket. By having more than one carrier provide lift for you, you can limit possible damage from job action down the road. Also with one carrier providing all of the lift you can't play the poor shmucks against each other making them take pay cut after pay cut just to keep flying big shiny aircraft.

Also Sunwing Vacations is probably already talking to Canjet. They have this ever looming problem of the foreign pilot issue. It works now but maybe not for ever. If Canjet has a lower pay scale than that of their own pilots I could see them playing that to their advantage. CanJet already does the exact same work. Transition would be almost seamless. I'll bet with the new union situation at Sunwing the pilots have already been reminded more than once that they too simply provide lift for Sunwing Vacations and anybody with a similar aircraft at a better price could do it just as well. Oh, if your thinking performance is an issue. Think again. It's money. A carrier would really have to have problems in order to have that affect the contract at hand. Everything I've read says otherwise for Canjet. What about Enerjet? Aerobee. Don't be so narrow minded. There is a lot of pilots in Canada willing to sell their mothers just so the other guy doesn't get their flying.

One last thing I should mention. Don't scratch your head thinking this is anything new. We had you the day you got your license. "Your not going to earn money until you get this many hours". "Your not going to fly that until you get this many more hours". You want that, then do this. Fly that,pay this,cut there.

And so on and so on........

[TFTMB heavy]

Dear S. Holder,

Just out of curiosity, where does all of your aviation management come from? What side of the fence are you on, pilot or management?

[S. Holder]

No sides. My side is the only side I care about these days.

[TFTMB heavy]

No side but your own? Something tells me you have a vested interest in the whole Transat/TSC/Canjet matter? Am I right?

You might want to read up a bit and get some facts straight before you offer your opinion and rants, you're off on the whole Air Transat pilot angle, FYI.

[S. Holder]

Sorry to disappoint, no. But you know I'm right. Have a wonderful day.

[Mig29]

Well,

I must admit that I haven't read something as brutally honest as S. Holder wrote in a long, long time!!!

Two thumbs up!!

A little more unity, yes.....a lot more would do good for us all in this industry! We are so divided today, that it will take years/decades to make some/any gains in our careers....

[Mig29]

No side but your own? Something tells me you have a vested interest in the whole Transat/TSC/Canjet matter? Am I right?

You might want to read up a bit and get some facts straight before you offer your opinion and rants, you're off on the whole Air Transat pilot angle, FYI.

TFTMB heavy,

with all due respect, but S. Holders' speaks the truth!

You're telling me that TS didn't sell their young when they chopped the F/O's pay from $69K/$78K (year 1/2) to $50K/$55K??? When will you ever see a raise of more then $40,000 in your career? (for the first two years lost on the new pay-scale)

Just look at contracts that are renegotiated every 5 years or so...everyone get a 1%/year if they are lucky!! I've yet to see someone give me a $40,000 or even $20,000 dollar raise in a year

Or is AC better for letting SKY/Rouge do the same work their mainline does at half the price??? Who will go there? Their young most likely....

Or WJ with their Encore's "generous" entry level pay??

We are being torn apart like a flock of sheep surrounded by wolves, and everyone inside the herd is drinking the Kool aid thinking it won't happen to them.....

Yeah, I'd say we need a lot more unity and support for one another if we ever hope something to change.

[TFTMB heavy]

Mig: Never said that S.Holder doesn't have some valid points but to come on a forum and start by saying that we as pilots are this and that and that some posts are nice and other mean then to proceed to sling some mud him or herself kinda rubbed me the wrong way.

Air Transat pilots gave up quite a bit the last contract to obtain the narrow body work that was given to Canjet, the reduced payscal on the narrow body LOU and the 2 new entry level pay scales on the wide body pay scale are huge in my opinion. But to say we are going to bite our own noses off and spit in our own faces??? We gave the concessions to create jobs at Air Transat, everyone knows we will not likely see the $$ we gave up again, it was never about $$ but about growth and job security. The high ups know they will save money with us doing the flying in house once the startup costs are recouped, it's simple math.

Remember one thing that we as a group at Air transat deal with and understand, we are not a "normal" airline, we are more of a transportation department for TTC. We are on the other a very united group.

[crj_705]

All this talk about what we as pilots had to do to secure jobs and shiney new aircraft for future possible growth plays right into the hand of Corporate greed.

Personally, I'd rather have 1,000 good paying jobs than 1,500 shitty paying jobs. Corporations will always find the people and metal if there is more money to be made. And let me tell you people, we are NOT overpaid for the jobs we do. The NHLPA didn't have any problem sticking together to give the finger to Corporate greed, then why can't we??? IMHO

[S. Holder]

I have one question for Mr Heavy. Why would you give up things to fly an airplane somebody else has already given up things to fly? Wouldn't it have made more sense to keep your pay and other things you gave up, allow somebody else to take the pay cut and have the degraded life style and by doing so make your parent company more solvent. Wouldn't that be the smarter play.

I'm afraid you have proved my point. They win again.