JB, is this you?

Sure thing, let's go whenever the weather permits. I'll be more than happy to.

Alex

Akoch posted...

So how do I know when the landing was bad? It is only when somebody experienced it telling you what was going on, and what could be done differently.

,

According to some here, if you do not set off the ELT, no one sees you taxi back on to the runway, and you can walk far enough away from the plane to allow plausible denial to the gear damage the landing was pretty much OK

Seriously though, it is a good question. Excellent question!!! good attitude...

Lets look at what a good landing should consist of...Landing exactly on center line or center of the runway width...Touch down exactly where you planned to touch down.. Wheels kissing the ground. and if there is a crosswind, upwind side earlier . downwind side settling down nicely.
No drift on touching down, and perfect straight roll out. ailerons and elevators moved into the proper position for the wind....
Takes but a few seconds to ask yourself these questions and run through your scorecard.
Dont accept good enough..Centerline is centerline...not 5 feet off it.. Done your assessment, try to do better on the next landing..
The biggest problems are the attitude that if you did not set off the ELT and managed ito keep it off the runway lights, it is good enough..Do not be satisfied with anything but perfect from yourself, and keep trying. You will be surprised how if you discipline yourself and demand perfection from yourself you will do well. Very well..
If you make a major type boo boo, dont simply pass it off as an 'oh well'. Have a chat with yourself..Make a committment not to do it again.

The problem is most pilots pretty much finish up the flight about 3 feet above the runway, and if they dont damage the landing gear and are able to taxi to the terminal they consider it a successful landing.
We all have bad days..But dont use that as an excuse..

Now to the second part..Go back to basics..Start with how to judge the landing point on the approach and to set up a nice approach without jockeying the power lever back and forth from idle to full power. Make the airspeed needle look like it is glued on the correct speed. Dont excuse yourself because there is a little turbulence.
If you are having major difficulties then go for a little flight with someone who knows how to teach this...Take it up to altitude,,, start a descent..Learn how to control the AS preciseily,Review how to tell where you are going to flare, and how to do it..If you can make a nice controlled descent at a precise aspeed, this becomes quite easy.. Now work on the flare, and once the wheels are on the ground dont start filling out your logbook...Keep flying the plane..filght time ends when the plane stops and it is best to come to a planned stop on the ramp.

And once you have pretty much got it together. Practice..Discipline yourself..Keep trying to make every landing perfect for the rest of your career.

Again, the biggest problem I have seen is pilots who simply think just OK is good.. You are not going to fly with an instructor all the time..Learn to objectively evaluate your landings. Never stop trying to make the next landing perfect..That is what really sets the great pilots apart from the rest.

Most of the time, a good landing is the result of a good
approach. Sure, if you're a hero with a golden arm, you
can fly the most horrible, screwed-up approach and in a
moment of magic over the numbers, transform it into a
majestic landing.

Uh huh. If you're a hero with a golden arm, you stopped
reading this by now because you have nothing left to learn
in aviation - certainly not from some weird, cranky old
biplane airshow pilot.

For the rest of us mortals, a good landing is the result of
a good approach.

What is a good approach, and how do you do it?

Well, turning onto final, the first thing I am looking for is
alignment with the extended runway centerline. Co-ordinated
turn left or right as required. Crab for any crosswind, ball
in the center the entire time.

Next thing I am looking for is white/red on the VASI. If
you are white/white push down to the correct 3 degree
glidepath. If you are red/red pull up to the correct 3 degree
glidepath. This is not rocket science.

Now that we are on the extended runway centerline and
the correct glidepath, the next thing I want is to get the
airspeed under control. If you are fast, reduce power or
add flap. If you are slow, add power. You should have a
nominal power setting and aircraft config (gear, flaps) which
should get you in the ballpark, which you have to adjust for
circumstances (wind, traffic).

So we are now on short final. We are precisely on the
extended runway centerline - you wouldn't believe how many
people cannot see lateral errors - and we are white/red
on the VASI and the airspeed is nailed.

That's how a good landing starts.

Do not let your airspeed decay as you approach the runway
threshold. Common error. Maintain the approach speed until
over the threshold, and power off. You should not be excessively
high or low over the threshold. Flare. Level off at 6 inches and
try to stop the aircraft from landing, with a minimum of control
inputs.

Do not saw at the elevator - we call that "fishing for a greaser"
and can result in a nasty PIO. The smaller and fewer your inputs,
the better.

Continual back elevator to stop the aircraft from landing will
result in minimum speed at touchdown which is good for many
different reasons.

People often get busy during the flare and get off the centerline.
Common error. Simple brain/CPU overloading. You need more
practice until the percentage of your brain required to perform
the flare drops below 100% and there is some CPU left over to
maintain centerline.

As you slow down, STICK OVER FULLY INTO THE CROSSWIND.
I cannot emphasize enough that you use adverse yaw to help
you oppose the natural weathervaning tendency of the aircraft
as it slows down and the rudder loses effectiveness. You still have
a honking big vertical fin out there, and it's going to want to point
the nose into the wind. This is NOT just some weird biplane/taildragger
thing - I do this in the C421 and L39.

This is an interesting thread, funnily enough we were sitting around discussing this last month. "We" including two guys who train upwards of 200 working pilots every year all across the country, and are two of the most experienced and best training pilots in the industry. Probably close to 40,00hrs between them.

The conclusion after a great deal of food and beer was essentially this:

- As with almost any other profession, a large majority of pilots are not really cut out for flying.

- Of those a hefty percentage have excellent careers in certain segments of the industry that do not push skills, ie flat lands, or non-vertical reference flying

- The rest of that group stand out as "Poor" pilots and at least in helicopters are relegated to very basic work, or find their way out of the industry all together.

- The other 25% are above average and can essentially do almost any work, ie. mountain flying, long line (vertical reference), and other complicated jobs safely.

- Of that 25% there are about 10% who have "it," the natural talent on the controls combined with the head on the shoulders to make the standard. So the guys who perform the hardest work, in the toughest conditions, and who do it not only safely but efficiently and stand out to the customer.

Given this loose conclusion, I think it's pretty clear why "most pilots suck at landing airplanes." The Colonel and others can teach competency, but only so far.

Was a very Avcan discussion...! And well lubricated too.

Quote:
While not as experienced as ., I'll gladly go up with you in it too. George is happy with it.

JBL

Great idea.....

....It is going to be some months until I will be back in Pitt Meadows so you two should do as much flying as possible.

....I bet Bob will let you use the little tail wheel machine in his hangar also

..when you can control that perfectly on the take off and landing you will be a far better pilot akoch, and J.B. must be able to make it do what he wants because he flies it all the time..

- Of that 25% there are about 10% who have "it," the natural talent on the controls combined with the head on the shoulders to make the standard.

Agree 100%.....

.....except I split that ten percent in two parts..about half of those ten pilots are also excellent mechanics and they are never out of work.

Thank you for the tips guys. On to more practicing, it is a nice day here for a change!

about half of those ten pilots are also excellent mechanics and they are never out of work

Met a guy like that last month. A better stick than I am
and a better mechanic that I am. Was very humbling!

You are correct that he is very much in demand. For example,
while I was there he did an annual on a T-6. Owner paid extremely
large bucks for the last annual. But the engine had been barking
for a couple years. He popped open the left mag, parts fell out.
Also, the tailwheel was shimmying. Very expensive shop claimed
to have rebuilt it. But the parts in it were at least as old as I am.

He had that T-6 running superbly, very quickly. Then he went out
and did some surface acro in it, to test it out.

So much for the very expensive, big name shops and their fradulent
annuals.

trey wrote:According to some here, if you do not set off the ELT, no one sees you taxi back on to the runway, and you can walk far enough away from the plane to allow plausible denial to the gear damage the landing was pretty much OK

If you can damage the gear without setting off the ELT you must have some sort of marketable skill.

Colonel Sanders wrote:Owner paid extremely
large bucks for the last annual. But the engine had been barking
for a couple years. He popped open the left mag, parts fell out.
Also, the tailwheel was shimmying. Very expensive shop claimed
to have rebuilt it. But the parts in it were at least as old as I am.

Wait, wut tha? ~grumble~

Yeah, the retainer spring for the points was broken.
God knows what they were doing in flight - probably
firing at random times. No wonder the poor R-1340
was barking. Tough engine.

And he paid enough for his last annual at the very big
name shop to buy a two seat Cessna.

Maybe it broke after the "rebuild", sounds suspect though.

- As with almost any other profession, a large majority of pilots are not really cut out for flying.

I thought I was the only one here that believed that!

As an instructor, you must have recommended a fair few you thought were in that category. Do say for how many unfortunate souls you did the decent thing and told them to give up because they weren't cut out for it? Better than bitchin' about it here.

Same goes for all you instructor-prima-donnas. For how many "not cut out for it" students did you discontinue training?

The other factor I've noticed is the 'give up' factor. Rather than maintaining directional control, wings level or banked into the appropriate cross wind, holding the flare, and holding the nose wheel up (or the tail wheel down) through the ground roll... they simply say CLOSE ENOUGH and plunk the airplane down... or wheelbarrow or porpoise as they force it to stay on the ground.. and don't use the rudder or aileron until they feel they need it (or in the case of a tailwheel airplane... too late)

I like this answer. The landing will be much better if the pilot stops flying when the plane stops moving, and not before. A pilot planning to fly the plane all the way through to a stop, will fly it better the whole time.

Today's gentle tricycles are making lazy pilots, They get away with lazy, and become more lazy. My other plane will nearly always demand the rapid application of full to near full pedal in at least one direction during the roll out, even in still air. Careless not tolerated.

My other plane is much more forgiving, and can be landed with excellent precision if you try.



That is the runway. Other times, I laugh at death, land on little patches of ice

photofly...

Why do you say that I "must" have recommended a number of pilots who weren't cut out for flying? That must mean that every instructor out there has recommended students they didn't think were cut out for the task. I guess all instructors are prima donnas then. Nice logic!

I can tell you that I never recommended someone who I thought wasn't competent to operate an airplane safely for the license or rating they were applying for. I actually wrote up a 2 or 3 page report on one student who I thought shouldn't be trained because he was not cut out for it and handed that to my boss. He ended up switching instructors and last I heard he was arrested by the RCMP for driving drunk and never finished his PPL.

Because you think that the large majority of pilots aren't cut out for it. That's your considered opinion is it? I guess you were just incredibly lucky only ever to have trained one of these people, and every other student of yours is in that small minority of people who are cut out for it.

That must mean that every instructor out there has recommended students they didn't think were cut out for the task.

no. Only the ones who, like you, think that the majority of pilots aren't up to the task. I'd like to hear from them what practical steps they've taken to prevent these people following their dreams, too. Otherwise it's just so much bullshit.

It does, however, mean that every other instructor out there has recommended students that YOU don't think are cut out for the task. You're the one saying most pilots aren't up to it. Surely their instructors have all been heinously wrong to let them even approach a flight test?

I actually wrote up a 2 or 3 page report on one student who I thought shouldn't be trained because he was not cut out for it and handed that to my boss.

Seriously? A short, quiet conversation wouldn't have done it?

photofly...

Do you want to just start a flame war? Why didn't you start attacking sky's the limit? - He was the first one to say it.

Let me be clear: I never recommended someone who I didn't think was cut out for the license or rating they were applying for.

That does not mean that I didn't train people who I thought weren't cut out for it and it doesn't mean that someone else didn't recommend them for a higher license such as a CPL, where I would not have done so.

Colonel...

I talked to my boss a couple times about the student. It was my boss that requested a detailed report from me regarding the student's progress. The problem was that he was be sponsored by an organization to complete his training so it wasn't as easy as having a chat with the student.

photofly...

Would you recommend someone who you didn't think was cut out for the license or rating they were applying for? If the answer is yes then please explain. If no, I think it would be great if you just left it at that.

photofly...

It does, however, mean that every other instructor out there has recommended students that YOU don't think are cut out for the task.

Where do you even come up with this logic?!

dr.aero wrote:
That does not mean that I didn't train people who I thought weren't cut out for it and it doesn't mean that someone else didn't recommend them for a higher license such as a CPL, where I would not have done so.

I see. if you hadn't done it someone else would, so that's ok. Thats up there with "I was only following orders" in history's book of lame excuses.

If you really think most pilots aren't up to it, you should have grown some balls and done something about it, when you were responsible for training them.

dr.aero wrote:photofly...

It does, however, mean that every other instructor out there has recommended students that YOU don't think are cut out for the task.

Where do you even come up with this logic?!

Sigh.

Dr.aero thinks most pilots aren't up to it.

Most pilot were trained by, and recommended by, instructors other than dr.aero.

Other instructors must therefore have recommended pilots who dr.aero thinks are not up to it.


It's not tricky stuff.

Why didn't you start attacking sky's the limit? - He was the first one to say it.

i'm not attacking either you or him; just your hypocrisy, if you really believe it to be true and have done as little to remedy it as you say you have.

I'll give him the opportunity to say how many ill-suited students he turned away, first, before commenting further.

photofly..

It does, however, mean that every other instructor out there has recommended students that YOU don't think are cut out for the task.

Does that make it clearer?

And as for me getting "some balls" and doing something about students who I thought aren't cut out for it - I think that might illustrate your lack of instructing experience and your ignorance with regard to handling situations like this. It's like a 5 year old kid asking why the Russians and the Americans don't have a handshake during the cold war and be friends - it's not quite as simple as that!

I'll give him the opportunity to say how many ill-suited students he turned away, first, before commenting further.

How nice of you! But for me you decide to go full-force personal attack without even asking for clarification.

photofly...

Thats up there with "I was only following orders" in history's book of lame excuses.

That's not even close. That would be applicable if I was told by my boss to recommend a student who I thought wasn't competent and I did so.

I feel like I'm arguing with a child right now...