7thirtyseven wrote:Kag what I think you may have missed is a change in the wind. Its not the job itself thats the issue, or the relationship withmanagment. Most pilots recognize that there will always be a pile of shit to wade through or around. Rather the shift has been to an ambivilance (best case) or pure hatered (worst case) of the WJPA itself. All it will take is a minor goof up by someone in middle management and the WJPA will be gone. Given the current state of affairs on the second floor, my odds are 50:50 that the WJPA does not survive this round of negotiations.
This really intrigues me.
WestJet is arguably (from the outside at least) the best flying job in Canada right now. Good pay, good equipment, interesting route structure, good working conditions and most importantly, a good working relationship between the pilots and management. The pilots are represented by an association that achieved all that for them, why on earth would they even be thinking about an outside union?
The bigger question is; what do you think a union would do for you that your association can't?
What does this statement mean; "Given the current state of affairs on the second floor"?
Ha your "bigger question" makes a leap to far.... I should have said my odds of the WJPA surviving "in its current form".
And the current state of affairs in the second floor relates directly to Flight ops in all itts guises. Nothing unusual, just the age old problem of fine folks getting power and gradually drifting out of the "reality loop". Kinda just like NHL coaches there is a lifecycle. I think our current "coaches" are pushing the lifecycle envelope... Not a negative thing, just the way things go when human beings are involved.
Every company gets the type of association or union it deserves. Westjet has, thus far, done a fine job at keeping their labour group happy. If management makes a drastic change and does not include labour input in the decision making, then the workers will evolve the way they interact with management. This is true in most industries.
loopy wrote:Every company gets the type of association or union it deserves. Westjet has, thus far, done a fine job at keeping their labour group happy. If management makes a drastic change and does not include labour input in the decision making, then the workers will evolve the way they interact with management. This is true in most industries.
7thirtyseven wrote:Nothing unusual, just the age old problem of fine folks getting power and gradually drifting out of the "reality loop". Kinda just like NHL coaches there is a lifecycle. I think our current "coaches" are pushing the lifecycle envelope... Not a negative thing, just the way things go when human beings are involved.
Interesting perspective.
I have met most of your Flight Ops management team at one time or another, one is a very close personal friend. From what I've seen you are very lucky to have the people you do. My impression is they are all dedicated professionals who care passionately about the people and company - and all are very much in touch with reality.
loopy wrote:Every company gets the type of association or union it deserves. Westjet has, thus far, done a fine job at keeping their labour group happy. If management makes a drastic change and does not include labour input in the decision making, then the workers will evolve the way they interact with management. This is true in most industries.
Thus far it has dependant on a very close interaction, but that has gone. Just a function of the realities of size and scope. As for management making "drastic change" I believe its a subtle drift that has allready occured.
Pilots being the bright boys and girls we are are generally reticent to even recognize these changes and havea coherant discussion without resorting to fear and anger.
Westjet is a different beast than it was when the WJPA was set up... It is entering the adolecent phase of its lifecycle. There will be some growing pains as the WJPA enters ITS adolecent phase, to successfully do this first requires a recognition, then a discussion without the fear and anger, I am NOT implying that a union is the answer, in all likelyhood a union just wouldnt be a good fit for the majority of pilots in the WJPA but it has to be part of the discussion.
7thirtyseven wrote:Nothing unusual, just the age old problem of fine folks getting power and gradually drifting out of the "reality loop". Kinda just like NHL coaches there is a lifecycle. I think our current "coaches" are pushing the lifecycle envelope... Not a negative thing, just the way things go when human beings are involved.
Interesting perspective.
I have met most of your Flight Ops management team at one time or another, one is a very close personal friend. From what I've seen you are very lucky to have the people you do. My impression is they are all dedicated professionals who care passionately about the people and company - and all are very much in touch with reality.
Ya me too.... And NHL coaches are great people too, nothing personal. All management drifts from the reality loop, at many places this isnt a big issue but with the way the relationship between employee-employer is at WJA it has the potential to be a huge issue.
7thirtyseven wrote:All management drifts from the reality loop,
Give me an example of where yours has drifted.
Like I said, I've met most of them at various conferences and symposiums over the years and all seem very grounded and thoroughly in touch with reality.
Wow. Creeping slowly towards legacy costs and now the inkling of legacy politics.
The establishment of Encore was a good litmus test of whether it is still a WJ team, or perhaps now team(s). It is all good if WJPA and management agree on the rules but what happens of the rank and file pilots do not?
WJ is a case study in alternative labour relations. The test of time is perhaps the greatest test of all.
7thirtyseven wrote:All management drifts from the reality loop,
Give me an example of where yours has drifted.
Like I said, I've met most of them at various conferences and symposiums over the years and all seem very grounded and thoroughly in touch with reality.
rudder wrote:Wow. Creeping slowly towards legacy costs and now the inkling of legacy politics.
The establishment of Encore was a good litmus test of whether it is still a WJ team, or perhaps now team(s). It is all good if WJPA and management agree on the rules but what happens of the rank and file pilots do not?
WJ is a case study in alternative labour relations. The test of time is perhaps the greatest test of all.
I hope that there will be a positive outcome.
Id prefer to think the "inkling of legacy politics" is more a change in the landscape that is Westjet. I suppose it was inevitable but with the growth the personal gets replaced with the system, one of which (in the context of this thread) is unionization. There is no question that the WJPA has to change with the changing make up of its pilots and the changing make up of the company that employs them. Like all things growing there is challenges, pain and denial. Right now I think most of us are in a stage of denial, but the truth is change at the WJPA level is inevitable... Hopefully we will all get involved and come up with a leap of maturity to continue the "case study in alternative labour relations". I too hope for a positive outcome, but the odds are much greater for this if there is an ongoing frank discussion rather than crisis managment. Ie I think the cracks are starting to show and Id prefer a measured move to a new form rather than a "holy crap, lets try picking up the pieces"
I've been watching these posts for the last little while so I thought now would be a good time to chime in.
The days of the high paying pilot jobs are long gone. For those of you who think you are entitled to high wages need to have a look at the times. Costs have increased over the last 20 years and consumers are looking for deals. They will book a flight if it is 20 dollars cheaper. Westjet and Air Canada are in the business to make money and they will do what they can to make a profit for the shareholders.
Recently I received an email for Air Canada stating "lowest prices guaranteed". AC will not sit on the sidelines and get their butts kicked while Westjet expands. It has been around for 75 years and will be around 75 more. It has learned from the Westjet model and will not make the same mistakes in the future. Westjet in turn will try and maintain a cost advantage over its rivals. This has been done for decades with all business models including aviation.
I am all for earning a descent wage and im not defending the present wage structure of either carrier, but facts are facts and these are the sign of the times. Would any of you operate a business to lose money. Put yourselves in the their shoes and think how you would handle the situation.
As far as union are concerned, be careful what you wish for. I think the days of the union are gone the way of the dodo ( some unions are a bunch of dodos). I think WJ pilot association is great. Management and pilot group having meaningful discussions and trying to solve issues before they escalate. AC also has an association that works with the company to solve issues. Unions are greedy and think about themselves and are more interested in lining the pockets of union heads and bosses instead of the people they represent.
Both canadian airlines are great in their own way. Each has its flaws but it is what it is.
I don't work for Westjet or AC but have been in aviation for nearly 30 years and have seen the ups and downs of aviation. For those of you young buck wet behind the ear newbies, get used to the new aviation, stop your whining, enjoy what you have, put your feet, relax, enjoy the ride and have a drink
Rant over, time to get out of bed....ok a few more minutes
