College of Pilots.

[loopy]

Tom, thanks for the info.

I agree that we as a profession need some voice. I'll paraphrase the argument I have made in previous threads. I think that wanting to create a college and essentially taking over licensing and regulation from TC is a stretch. We need a united lobby on behalf of all of us in the profession, which in my mind is an association. Many professions (psychologists, doctors, dentists, among others) have both a college and an association. The college licenses and regulates the profession and the association lobbies on behalf of those in the profession. The college role in our case is taken by TC, unless they decide to hand that off. The role of TC, or a college, in part, or in whole, is to protect the public. The role of an association is to represent the member of a profession.

I don't disagree with much of what the college represents, but I really think we need a Canadian Association of Professional Pilots (CAPP). My two cents.

[Doc]

Tom, thanks for the info.

I agree that we as a profession need some voice. I'll paraphrase the argument I have made in previous threads. I think that wanting to create a college and essentially taking over licensing and regulation from TC is a stretch. We need a united lobby on behalf of all of us in the profession, which in my mind is an association. Many professions (psychologists, doctors, dentists, among others) have both a college and an association. The college licenses and regulates the profession and the association lobbies on behalf of those in the profession. The college role in our case is taken by TC, unless they decide to hand that off. The role of TC, or a college, in part, or in whole, is to protect the public. The role of an association is to represent the member of a profession.

I don't disagree with much of what the college represents, but I really think we need a Canadian Association of Professional Pilots (CAPP). My two cents.

Well said loopy. Give the "college" idea a "rest" and look into a unified "Association" and you just might get someplace. Pilots are NOT Doctors OR lawyers, but "blue collar" workers.for the most part. They need a "voice" to be sure, but not another "regulator"......TC does a poor enough job of that already, and they're not about to hand over control to a "college" by whatever name you choose to call yourselves.

[BTyyj]

.

[URC]

Cost- well, if this is successful to the point of achieving the legislation where all 24,000 fixed and rotary CPLs and ATPLs must be members, then if the fees were set at $240 (in essence $20/ month), that would be $5,760,000 per year of income. Is that enough? I don't know. I guess it really depends on what we as a group want from this and then we'll have to cost it out.

Compared with other similar organizations that you appear to want to emulate I don't think $5.7 million is realistic. Annual expenses, Law Society of Upper Canada $70.0 million, College of Physicians and Surgeons Ontario $44.5 million, Certified General Accounts of Ontario $38.4 million. I suspect a national bureaucracy large enough for pilot self governance would approach the higher end closer to the $70 million figure ? This would result in fees of thousands of dollars per year per pilot. I just don't understand the justification for such a small group taking on such a large expense ? While I agree with the ultimate goals of improving the industry, I don't agree with the College vision of a self governance model. Too expensive, for that reason I'm out.

[dahspeers]

League of Extraordinary Gentlemen has a nice ring to it.

[iflyforpie]

Pilots are NOT Doctors OR lawyers, but "blue collar" workers for the most part.

And pilots should be paid accordingly. So why does everyone complain about salaries? If pilots are blue collar workers, then they shouldn't be paid very high relative to doctors and lawyers. The pay should be more in line with some of the other better paying blue collar jobs, such as elevator installer, electrician, trucker, etc., which should only be around $50 000-$65 000/year with some experience, much less than many are currently raking in as pilots. Or am I missing something here?

You are missing the supply/demand aspect of it. More people want to be pilots than electricians or truckers.

So the solution is easy right; throttle the supply? Doesn't work that way. Operators pay peanuts for pilots so they can low ball customers who would otherwise just drive to where they are going (nearly as fast with security checks) plus have a car when they get there.

[xsbank]

What you all fail to see is that all of the professions with "colleges" (why does that term give you all fits?) are legitimate professions. Doctors, lawyers, geologists, psychologists, engineers etc. all have colleges and in order to practice what they do, you must be a member. Most of you complain that "the good old days" are gone and what we are facing is lower salaries, worse working conditions, legal consequences to screw-ups, and a huge loss in perceived "status" as a professional charged with keeping our passengers and equipment safe. Some have complained that bus drivers are paid more than lots of us who carry the same number of passengers. If this deterioration in our working lives is acceptable, feel free to put your head back in the sand. Those of you who have it all under control (here's looking at you, Doc) and have a lot to offer to those who frequently don't, what are you doing to help? Fussing about costs and budgets and regulatory stuff is a narrow-minded cop-out, an unwillingness to keep an open mind and an intellectual failure to support your profession. Here is an opportunity to put your money where your mouth is, otherwise, I invite you to propose another solution.

[BTyyj]

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[Beefitarian]

Well said, xs. Some how Union has become not a union. I missed what the guy said in the westjet forum but everyone is discussing how management would know if one of those had lurked around. One person basically suggested if a person approached him in the parking lot to ask about joining a union he'd tell on them after telling them to eff off.

The whole point isn't paying monthly fees and hiring people to represent a group. It's becoming a group and representing each other.

Call it a banana if it makes it sound nicer.

[iflyforpie]

Good post xsbank.

iflyforpie - My post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I find it hypocritical when its discussed that the industry is degrading, while simultaneously comparing it to a blue collar profession, which was what I was trying to point in my post. If it is indeed a blue collar profession, then many pilots are actually overpaid.

The problem is the traditional definition of the terms 'white collar' and 'blue collar' is obsolete.

It's obsolete because these days... a white collar job can be anything from a secretary or a minimum wage position in a call center (if they exist in this country anymore) to a stock broker. A blue collar job is anything from a janitor or general labourer to a guy running an oil platform (or a series of oil platforms). White collar and blue collar have absolutely nothing to do with what a person is paid... it is just the classification of their function in the work force. The shlubs in Office Space were white collar workers... and Peter at the end decided he'd rather do blue collar work.

'Blue collar' describes probably about 90% of aviation out there... the exceptions being the customer relations aspects of corporate and some of the larger air carriers, and management. In aviation, we are equipment operators, plain and simple. Typically, our compensation goes up with the number of passengers or value of cargo we carry and the cost and size of our aircraft (read potential for collateral damage--even a $200 million Boeing or Airbus can cause damages several orders of value higher than the aircraft itself) .... the same as blue collar workers operating a well site, large construction equipment, or working in dangerous situations.

Whether we are white collar or blue collar should not have any effect on what we are paid. Again, back to supply and demand.

[BTyyj]

Fair enough, ifly. My comments were based on my own personal perception on the differences in pay between blue collar and white collar, which is obviously no longer the case.

[Gino Under]

FWIW
The word association is just another synonym for college.

At least the college exists and I think we owe it to ourselves to participate in it if for no other reason than no one has offered a better solution to the pathetic state of aviation in this country. Granted it may take awhile for some to come to the realization that participating in a professional organization like this will (over time) gain both in momentum and its influence.
The size, effectiveness, and influence is in our hands if we choose to do it collectively.

The failure of some to see what could be done shouldn't be seen as a reason to stay away but more of a reason to participate and mold it into something that works for OUR profession as a whole.
I know I've pi**ed away a lot more than 60 bucks on much dumber ideas than this.

Why not give it a shot by signing up for a membership. Be heard for once.

Gino Under

[Beefitarian]

Here I fixed this so it's easier to see.

League of Extraordinary Gentlemen has a nice ring to it.

I might Pay to join that if they give out wallet cards or some sort of I.D.

[cncpc]

FWIW
The word association is just another synonym for college.

At least the college exists and I think we owe it to ourselves to participate in it if for no other reason than no one has offered a better solution to the pathetic state of aviation in this country.

No, it isn't. University is another synonym for college. I have a degree from a college, not an association. A college at a minimum implies a post secondary education.

No one has offered a solution for the pathetic state of democracy in this country. A voters college won't fix that.

[photofly]

College has a broader meaning than just an educational institution:
See meaning 4:
http://east.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/college

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Lets split the following into to parts.

No one has offered a solution for the pathetic state of democracy in this country.

Canada is more a socialistic state run by a dictator than a democracy.

A voters college won't fix that.

No it will not change the way Canada is governed, but it can give working pilots leverage to change the industry for the better.

If fear of government is what is stopping a lot of you from trying to change the system maybe you need me to come out of retirement and be your shield from fear, because I have nothing to lose career wise, and for sure a bit of research will convince you I don't fear Ottawa's ruling class.


How could it possibly be worse than the way your government is now running it?

[xlwing]

With a government which forces pilots back to work when they're on strike? Something's not right here... Where's the rights of a pilot. Seems quite obvious that pilots hold a VALUABLE key to all of Canada and every other nation on the planet - economical. So valuable that countries can't afford having air carriers or their crews down on strike. Does ALL defence of a pilot then rest with unions? There doesn't seem to be a very good job as of lately. Could this 'college' potentially splay this imbalance of power? It doesn't seem to be on their agenda. There's definately issues present, and there needs to be an action of defence. It's frankly appauling.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

With a government which forces pilots back to work when they're on strike? Something's not right here...

Canada is more a socialistic state run by a dictator than a democracy.

[Prairie Chicken]

I recently read Into the Abyss, and what struck me most was how little the culture in aviation has changed since that 1984 accident.

We have to give the College a chance to change this culture. I don't know if it will work, but I really don't think it can be worse than the status quo.

[2.5milefinal]

I say pay the 60 (or so) bucks and lets see where this goes.

[Instructor_Mike]

URC
Cost- well, if this is successful to the point of achieving the legislation where all 24,000 fixed and rotary CPLs and ATPLs must be members

Membership should not be mandatory. I agree with the ideals of the college, but I won't support it if they are trying to be like another union who go from collective bargaining and supporting the workers to padding their own pockets and more bureaucracy. If I don't like the way the collage is operating, I should have the choice not to support it.

To me the college is shaping up to be similar (I'm not saying the same) as a union. Overall I don't mind unions, but they get out of control just as much as a corporation. The case with Caterpillar in London comes to mind where a union could have accepted a pay cut or lose their jobs completely and they chose the latter.

Edit: I thought it was only a small pay cut, not 50%. My mistake.

[mbav8r]

Instructor_Mike
To me the college is shaping up to be similar (I'm not saying the same) as a union. Overall I don't mind unions, but they get out of control just as much as a corporation. The case with Caterpillar in London comes to mind where a union could have accepted a pay cut or lose their jobs completely and they chose the latter.

Mike, with all due respect, that's a very simplistic way to look at what transpired with Caterpillar. First, it wasn't just simply a pay cut, it was a 50% pay cut, would you choose to work for half of what you make or stand your ground for whats right? Second, I don't believe anyone, union or worker actually believed they would just close the doors. Third, the government allowed a US company to come in buy our(Canadian) technology and take it with them without any ramifications, it seems this was the plan all along.
I can guarantee one thing, if the company I work for came to me and said, work for half of what you make now, or we're closing the doors, I'll tell them to close the doors. That's not union speak, that's just doing whats right.

[Instructor_Mike]

Mike, with all due respect, that's a very simplistic way to look at what transpired with Caterpillar. First, it wasn't just simply a pay cut, it was a 50% pay cut, would you choose to work for half of what you make or stand your ground for whats right? Second, I don't believe anyone, union or worker actually believed they would just close the doors. Third, the government allowed a US company to come in buy our(Canadian) technology and take it with them without any ramifications, it seems this was the plan all along.
I can guarantee one thing, if the company I work for came to me and said, work for half of what you make now, or we're closing the doors, I'll tell them to close the doors. That's not union speak, that's just doing whats right.

Ok, I apologize, I didn't realize it was that much of a pay cut, but the US factory was already ready to go from what I understand. Why did anyone believe they wouldn't just close the doors? I guess it depends on your pay grade, level of training and hire-ability for another job somewhere else. I'd rather live off 14K again this year as opposed having no job at all.

[xsbank]

Red herring. Don't let paranoia and a closed mind prevent you from moving forward. Everyone can cite an example where a union caused difficulties but there are countless examples where workers banding together have resulted in improvements in working conditions. Don't let ignorance nor prejudice nor fear guide your decision. Canadians are remarkably pliant and indifferent to their circumstances whenever some sort of authority is involved, but we call it individualism and pretend that's a superior stance than just saying no. With this org. you can have your cake (macho self-interest) yet eat it too (a strong group lobbying on your behalf). This is win/win, especially for those of you who fear authority, are working your way up the ladder and have found out how ****ed up and insecure this industry really is.
Have one less beer this weekend, give the money to the college and see what can happen to our industry. You might get a groovy new set of college wings to wear with your leather jacket and watch.

[xlwing]

Would the college actually lobby though? I can't see how simply upholding a standard of professionalism and ethics, which is fairly executed in the airlines already and which this college isn't even fully targeting, can improve conditions. They even state they won't get involved in labour disputes, affairs, pay rates, etc... Just because McDonald's employees start wearing ties and act highly professional, doesn't mean they suddenly elevate in the eyes of the public and government and get treated any better (and no, I'm not directly comparing Mcdonald's to aviation... ). I can say there are many pilots out there that act outright unprofessional and that at times I am embarassed to even be associated with, (you'd think it would be common sense to be professional - I know I don't have to pay someone to tell me how to be). This, however, if 'fixed', won't change anything, and if so, very little. There's no imminently concerning negative stigma against pilots that I know which ultimately is affecting work conditions. Anyhow, it just seems as though the concern of the college is over a pilot's public image rather than a primary focus on their abilities and worth, and so, not really a direct benefit, but rather tertiary, in that which we would like - working conditions.