Have you ever landed gear up?

[Driving Rain]

I missed doing a gear up ( land ) on an amphib T Beaver by a whisker. Took off from the water put me in an immediate left base to final. I didn't even retract the takeoff flaps. Caught the error about a 1/2 mile from TD. Best part I was working along side of Cat Driver at the time.

[CpnCrunch]

Interesting that four people choose 'more than twice'. Anyone care to admit it?

I've never flown a retractable, and I would worry that I could forget. A Baron landed gear-up at my local airport, and it was being flown by the owner of an air charter company (and he was real pissed off at himself!) He was doing a touch-and-go and on the roll-out he pulled the gear lever instead of the flaps. There was another plane in the circuit, and he must have been preoccupied with that.

[spaner]

I see that a few guys disagree..

That's OK, but check your reasoning. Is it just because "that's the way you've always done it"?
Is it deviating from SOPs? I just briefed it, two crew CRM SOP. Is it operationally outside of the AFM? No..You can fly around with the gear hanging out.

Let me hit you with a few,
Figure 8's for night currency, whilst getting some good night circling practice in.
System actuation motor over-taxing via time interval. 8 cycles in 4 minutes all while under load. That's when it's going to break on you, pop the CB; or eat a door.
What about ice/slush or mud/muck contamination. Hanging the gear for an interval to clear it.
What about landing 5 miles away, would you suck the gear up? Why? If so, you might just and well keep your hand on the lever...you'll be putting back down in 30 seconds.

If a particular procedure does not fit the circumstance, a proper brief will cover SOPs, AFM; Training or not. You're not really going to fail one engine or set it on fire...

I'm not advocating to change lesson plans or anything like that, but just to knock a few guys off of their "written in stone" type attitudes.

I could argue the opposite as well.
How many videos have you seen with an AC fly into the tree line, at the end of the runway with the gear hanging out?

They never got a "positive rate"...

[iflyforpie]

The only thing I don't agree with is leaving the gear down because you are afraid you will forget to put it down.

[Jack In The Box]

He was doing a touch-and-go and on the roll-out he pulled the gear lever instead of the flaps.

Now THAT is one of the more stupid SOPs out there! Yeah, I get in circuits you have to hit the flaps. But on regular landing, leave the damn flaps alone! I have never had a captain or FO ask me to, or try to retract flaps on me upon landing when I'm PF. But if they did, you damn well believe I'd be slapping their hand away from the pedestal. Raise the flaps when you're off the runway and can take a better look!

And I don't even fly a plane where they are remotely similar levers.

[spaner]

I agree 100%. iflyforpie

One should always be actively aware of the configuration of the aircraft, but more importantly, why it has been configure in that way; brief it.

Where people get into trouble, I THINK, is for the exact reason that an FTU would argue against.
REPETITION-type learning/experience.

The domino effect. If you get forced outside of your little pile of dominos, mistakes tend to happen quickly. Like if you've never experienced pulling the gear up, AT ANY OTHER TIME, than "positive rate" call, you're probably going to not want to do at any OTHER time.

Putting it down, same thing. Your tool bag should have more than 5 or 10 reasons for doing either.
AND, none of them should rely/depend on repetition.

[Cat Driver]

I have two questions.

First:

This " positive rate " call, if you don't call positive rate will the gear still go up when you select up?

Second:

When pilots talk about their " Tool box " of maneuvers, tricks whatever no one ever told me I had to get a tool box to put my stuff in to be a good pilot.......so where can I get one?

[iflyforpie]

Lots of guys swear by MAC and Snap-On... but they are way too expensive for my tastes...

[iflyforpie]

It is interesting how the poll is spitting up... lots of never and lots of more than twice.

It reminds me of a meeting at the Penticton Flying Club years ago where we had a guest speaker from the TSB give a talk. He asked if anyone in the room had ever crashed an airplane, and half the room put their hands up. He asked if anyone had ever crashed an airplane more than once and the same people put their hands up again!

[Siddley Hawker]

Gear down ski up, does that count for something?

[Adiabatic]

RH Main almost all the way up :/ Chose not to land with all of them up!

[Adiabatic]

Also went from flying two crew 12,500lbs+ to flying solo in a small multi engine airplane even the same day. GUMPS checks entering the zone and short final in a possible absence of a checklist helps. Gas Undercarriage Mixtures Props Switches. I'm sure there are other versions out there.

[Siddley Hawker]

Well, in that case...

I once had the nosewheel down but not locked on the G-once. After exhausting the emergency checklist with negative results, contacted Gulfstream in SAV and asked if they thought a touch and go and allow the nosewheel to touch the runway might lock it into place. They said "Go ahead, it's your airplane." It worked.

[fish4life]

A good reason to bring the gear up in the circuit is to help clean up that drag should you lose an engine, airplane I fly will do a 5 mile flight from time to time and we always bring the gear up as it might not be able to climb out single engine if the gear is left hanging down

[TheStig]

Bit of an odd poll as there are only two types of pilots, those who have landed gear up and those who will.

[Cat Driver]

Bit of an odd poll as there are only two types of pilots, those who have landed gear up and those who will.

Are you saying all pilots who fly retractable gear airplanes will eventually forget to put the gear down?

[Sidebar]

... there are only two types of pilots, those who have landed gear up and those who will.

Does that include Doc?

[Strega]

Bit of an odd poll as there are only two types of pilots, those who have landed gear up and those who will.

I dont think so Tim.. This cowboy aint ever gonna land with the gear up...

[Gannet167]

I would not leave gear down in the circuit.

I was teaching a few guys to do V1 cuts in a sim. They did everything right - except in the chaos of the fire bell and 100 other warnings going off, checklists, avionics failed, etc. they missed the gear up call. Without delving into the why and how and which company SOPs were poorly written and allowed the error to occur, blah blah blah, they figured it out when they realized they were climbing slow that they weren't going to clear the obstacles on departure.

The point is the last thing I'd want to do is build negative learning by deviating from what you normally do. In an emergency, you want to go back to basics - first of all, fly the plane. Missing the gear was a pretty rare mistake and I doubt they'll do it again in a similar scenario but if these guys had been doing multiple circuits and were in the practice of leaving the gear down - this error might be even more common.

Other aircraft's gear speeds are so much slower than normal circuit speed, that leaving it down just isn't an option. If your aircraft can't handling multiple gear cycles, then you may have to adjust how many circuits you do before giving it a cool down period. Either way, I wouldn't allow a crew to get used to a situation where the aircraft is unusually configured and they're ok with it. If something is different, you need to have that nagging feeling that something is wrong - something is different, why? what? So sticking to normal SOPs is important.

The whole point of doing circuits is to practice flying the airplane so you can become more proficient at it. Part of flying the airplane is remembering to configure it properly for any phase of flight. If you're intentionally flying it in a different way than you would operationally, then you are training differently than you fly operationally (which is stupid and negates the whole point of doing the training is to be better operationally.) In addition, if you're worried that you might land gear up - that's even MORE reason to practice putting the gear up and remembering to put it down - so that you don't forget to put it down when you're flying on a revenue trip. By trying leaving the gear down to reduce the risk you'll land gear up - you may actually be increasing the risk that you'll land gear up because you're not as accustomed to having to put it down.

[spaner]

I find the comments and reasoning to be very interesting.

The only thing I don't agree with is leaving the gear down because you are afraid you will forget to put it down.

Missing the gear was a pretty rare mistake and I doubt they'll do it again in a similar scenario but if these guys had been doing multiple circuits and were in the practice of leaving the gear down - this error might be even more common.

So what's it to be? (note not from the same person, just a consensus)

What the comments in general have in common, is that they prefer to rely on a system of action that is generated from repetition type learning and action. So that they DON'T have to think, and the action becomes automatic, almost a subconscious action as apposed to a conscious decision/action. The latter, I'm advocating here.

I suggest, that by inserting more opportunity for the pilot to consciously and actively consider the action, or in this case, the configuration, would he not also be more apt to do so during an emergency?

Where;
"What should I be doing now? becomes, more of, "What I have decided to do now."

Sure, this comes with long term experience, but, could it not be of some benefit for over all competency for those just relying on their knowledge of "drills"?
I say that the circuit is NOT teaching guys to make conscious decisions, but attempting to get them to produce an action required by a drill, subconsciously.

"John, you know the gear is still down, right?" "Sure do, we're landing in 30 seconds"
"Yea, but the drill says that we have to bring it up, and THEN put it down for landing"

Remove reasoning...insert drill...sign off PPC...

Landed gear up. Did the pilot crash the plane? Or did he just mess up the drill...

[Cat Driver]

Landed gear up. Did the pilot crash the plane? Or did he just mess up the drill...

That is easy to answer, the pilot crashed the airplane because the pilot did not check the gear position and confirm the gear was positioned for the surface that the pilot was about to land on.

Common sense, situational awarness and pre planning is what prevents unnecessary accidents.

[spaner]

Common sense, situational awarness and pre planning is what prevents unnecessary accidents.

No, it is not. It's experience, and a willingness to operate the aircraft outside of the SOPs, is what prevents unnecessary accidents.

Proven time and again.
Our SOPs for approach require active airspeed calls to both initiate and configure the aircraft for landing. Which is common.
"140"..."Gear Down"
Circuits, on the first one, (me-backseat) I see slowing through 150, and Call "ENGINE FIRE LEFT". AND, put my hand on the PNF's shoulder...he, he..
New, drill...
Problem is, below 130, the mind considers the "140" call complete, because its ALWAYS been complete before; at that point in time. So it MUST be complete NOW..repetition.
Engine is secure,
If we get to short final before finally getting to "the check/drill" for the gear "finals"...
Overshoot, Overshoot, Overshoot.
Works 100% of the time, for a new crew, 50/50 for guys with 5000 + hours.

Only two things usual happen to "save the day" with a high time crew.
1) The PNF calls "140" anyway, rare.
2) The guy in the left seat, regardless of PF/PNF says Fnck everybody, reaches over, puts the gear down. Common.

[Learning2Fly]

Saw it happen while driving East bound 401, CYYZ

It was a Dash8, landing 33L approx. 500', and crossing the highway.

I looked at my wife and said, "we have sims for that airplane at work...hey, where are the wheels?!"

Seconds later while over the airfield, the pilot pulled up for a go-around.

So much for those checklists! To this day I wonder if ATC advised the crew, or if the
avionics callouts saved the day.

[Pratt X 3]

Did that Dash 8 look like this? Or this?
Then the wheels up approach was intentional as they were checking the ILS. They fly the approach faster than the gear speed in order to complete the number required as efficiently as possible.
They also have CRJ's like this that do the same thing:

[trampbike]

What the comments in general have in common, is that they prefer to rely on a system of action that is generated from repetition type learning and action. So that they DON'T have to think, and the action becomes automatic, almost a subconscious action as apposed to a conscious decision/action. The latter, I'm advocating here.

I suggest, that by inserting more opportunity for the pilot to consciously and actively consider the action, or in this case, the configuration, would he not also be more apt to do so during an emergency?

Tons of reasearch in psychology are in disagreement with what you suggest here.

Still, that doesn't mean than you should not take the time to analyse the whys and hows of the different drills.