Skydive caravan

[Big Pistons Forever]

I have knowledge, and resulting faith, in the good will of the operation.

I have knowledge of the operation and my faith is anything but good. This operation is IMO a pox on aviation and to the extent I have influence on hiring at a few operations, I would unhesitatingly recommend NOT hiring anyone who worked there.

[gongshowking]

Props on that last comment. My rant stems from the overall tone of these discussions, Canadian aviation seems to have lost any sense of camaraderie or mutual support. Its pretty easy to weigh in with our armchair non-knowledge of what happened and slam people. Weve all swallowed the pill that every aviation incident will be deemed pilot error so just start the flames from that vantage and revel in the fact that it happened to some numbskull other than you. Just wait till your turn comes and and look around to see who your true friends are. Malevolence seems to win out in online forums, anyone outside of Canadian aviation would read half these discussions and deem us to be a bunch of a-holes.

[PilotDAR]

I would unhesitatingly recommend NOT hiring anyone who worked there.

Hmmm, perhaps you have had a different experience with them. To each their own. I have worked with this organization and flown in their [that] aircraft. I was pleased with the diligence. I trust that attitude carried across their operations in general. Indeed, with 6500 hours, and 50 hours on Caravans, I did not meet their experience requirements to fly the Caravan. They are sure a LOT better than a few other jump operations I have known, including the one I stopped flying for, because I was so unimpressed with the lack of safety culture. I've seen bad both in Canada and the US, and this operation is much better than that.

[170 to xray]

Just looking at Google Maps, 10 sideroad/3 line, south of the Cookstown airport. I assume he was landing to the north because I don't see any tress on the approach end landing south.

He didn't undershoot a little..... What side of 3 line is the field he ended up in?

[pdw]

On the south side. Looks like lined up for rwy 36 Cookstown; landed/stopped 600 meters short, facing west.

[Doc]

What can cause a guy, on a nice day (suitable for jumping out of planes) to land three furlongs short of a runway, in one of the most reliable airplanes out there today. Has he talked to anybody yet? If there was some "reason" the airplane just couldn't make it to the airport, we really should know. Anybody?

[Colonel Sanders]

I don't think we're allowed to talk about that subject,
Doc - it's "off limits" just like landing long on a 10,000
foot runway at YYB, or natives.

[pdw]

At the risk of becoming an armchair investigator

From the article:

"When he's coming for his approach (to the airport), he needed a little more power because he had to go over the trees and then land, and he didn't have the power. So instead of crashing the trees, he crashed in the field"

Possible FCU failure at the worst possible moment?

(taken with a few grains of salt being spectator reports and all)

Flame away!

Sounds like Flame out !

There's a very strong wind increase / gust going thru there out of NNW at 1500 local, evidenced on a number of weather histories/stations (Wunderground) the same time of this accident (precisely 3pm June 8 2013 ) ... as may be echoeing in this witness'es account.

This type of engine can experience flameout a lot easier while levering for more "power" in the flatter/flattening approach as fuel is hastily introduced ... as for such very sudden peak demand for thrust "needed" to "go over the trees" after entering the surge of headwind turning final.

We'll see, sounds like (on the News Video) TSB will decide if there will be further investigation (a report) or whether it will be "case closed".

[Siddley Hawker]

I figured it would be something like that.

[burhead1]

entering the surge of headwind turning final

Yep

[Cat Driver]

When I flew airplanes with PT6's in them my greatest fear was a flame out during the dreaded low altitude downwind turn.

[iflyforpie]

That's nothing compared to the variable tailwinds, Cat.

Agreed with BPF

TINSTAAFL

This operator deserves the negative attention, the increased insurance rates, and hopefully the terminal loss of business.

[Doc]

Sounds like Flame out !

There's a very strong wind increase / gust going thru there out of NNW at 1500 local, evidenced on a number of weather histories/stations (Wunderground) the same time of this accident (precisely 3pm June 8 2013 ) ... as may be echoeing in this witness'es account.

This type of engine can experience flameout a lot easier while levering for more "power" in the flatter/flattening approach as fuel is hastily introduced ... as for such very sudden peak demand for thrust "needed" to "go over the trees" after entering the surge of headwind turning final.

We'll see, sounds like (on the News Video) TSB will decide if there will be further investigation (a report) or whether it will be "case closed".

Have you ever, even had a ride in an airplane? Where DO you come up with this mindless drivel?

[pdw]

You had requested:

If there was some "reason" the airplane just couldn't make it to the airport, we really should know. Anybody?

The engine went out unexpectedly as suggested in the article, which was quoting a reliable source.

[Doc]

You had requested:

If there was some "reason" the airplane just couldn't make it to the airport, we really should know. Anybody?

The engine went out unexpectedly as suggested in the article, which was quoting a reliable source.

A PT6 doesn't tend to just "go out". Unless there's no fuel for the poor thing. At least that's always been the case in my slightly more than limited experience with them. I'm just not buying it. It may be fact, but it's VERY unlikely......unless "finger trouble" was involved?

[pdw]

A while back noticed discussion on another forum with regards to some ops restricting approaches below 1500rpm with that engine/aircraft, the only reason offered being about reducing premature wearing-out of"NG valves" ... if that helps any. From the responses then, didn't sound like there was a unanimous consensus.

[GUMPS]

Variable tailwinds causing flame outs....
I don't know if docs suspecting he just simply ran out of jet juice but that's what I'd think. Never dropped skydivers but how much or how little fuel do they put in for an up and down?

[Inverted2]

If it was a flameout, it sure was a hard landing for a plane that glides pretty good (with the prop feathered). 15 years ago I unfortunately did their 182 "type rating" course. I did not know till after that he didn't pay you squat. I remember they fueled you just enough to do the jumps so if there was an issue with air in the fuel lines, this would be the place.

[Doc]

If it was a flameout, it sure was a hard landing for a plane that glides pretty good (with the prop feathered). 15 years ago I unfortunately did their 182 "type rating" course. I did not know till after that he didn't pay you squat. I remember they fueled you just enough to do the jumps so if there was an issue with air in the fuel lines, this would be the place.

Are these the Bozos selling 182 check outs? Screw them. Hope the insurance company tell them to pound sand. Karma can be a bitch.

[Redneck_pilot86]

If it was a flameout, it sure was a hard landing for a plane that glides pretty good (with the prop feathered). 15 years ago I unfortunately did their 182 "type rating" course. I did not know till after that he didn't pay you squat. I remember they fueled you just enough to do the jumps so if there was an issue with air in the fuel lines, this would be the place.

You mean, plus the 30 minute legal reserve, right? If not, part of me hopes that was thee cause so TC pulls the OC and gets rid of this scumbag.

How high was this jump from? A caravan will very easily descend at 3000 fpm or more, if he was ding a high rate of descent with a bit of flap out, maybe he just recovered late and didn't have enough jam to stop the descent...I know I have been in caravans with the nose up and full power, still descending. It gets more believable the higher he started from.

[Inverted2]

If it was a flameout, it sure was a hard landing for a plane that glides pretty good (with the prop feathered). 15 years ago I unfortunately did their 182 "type rating" course. I did not know till after that he didn't pay you squat. I remember they fueled you just enough to do the jumps so if there was an issue with air in the fuel lines, this would be the place.

Are these the Bozos selling 182 check outs? Screw them. Hope the insurance company tell them to pound sand. Karma can be a bitch.

Yes same company.

[Doc]

If it was a flameout, it sure was a hard landing for a plane that glides pretty good (with the prop feathered). 15 years ago I unfortunately did their 182 "type rating" course. I did not know till after that he didn't pay you squat. I remember they fueled you just enough to do the jumps so if there was an issue with air in the fuel lines, this would be the place.

You mean, plus the 30 minute legal reserve, right? If not, part of me hopes that was thee cause so TC pulls the OC and gets rid of this scumbag.

How high was this jump from? A caravan will very easily descend at 3000 fpm or more, if he was ding a high rate of descent with a bit of flap out, maybe he just recovered late and didn't have enough jam to stop the descent...I know I have been in caravans with the nose up and full power, still descending. It gets more believable the higher he started from.

Sounds like everybody needs a little more training? TC won't pull their OC, but the insurance company could (and should) leave them high and dry. That might do it.

[CPLMike89]

If it was a flameout, it sure was a hard landing for a plane that glides pretty good (with the prop feathered). 15 years ago I unfortunately did their 182 "type rating" course. I did not know till after that he didn't pay you squat. I remember they fueled you just enough to do the jumps so if there was an issue with air in the fuel lines, this would be the place.

You mean, plus the 30 minute legal reserve, right? If not, part of me hopes that was thee cause so TC pulls the OC and gets rid of this scumbag.

How high was this jump from? A caravan will very easily descend at 3000 fpm or more, if he was ding a high rate of descent with a bit of flap out, maybe he just recovered late and didn't have enough jam to stop the descent...I know I have been in caravans with the nose up and full power, still descending. It gets more believable the higher he started from.

Exactly from what I recall with the prop feathered the glide ratio is around 14:1 empty. The only time I've seen over 2000 FPM (where the VSI pins) in the Van was during an emergency decent at VNE (175) in smooth air. I also used to fly a 182 for a dropzone and yes it was minimum fuel on all loads to be able to fit that extra person in the 182 cabin. This particular operation is pretty greasy with regards to the way they treat their pilots, its been said before karma is a biotch.

[Doc]

Are these the same guys looking for a Skyvan driver on our jobs forum?
Wonder how much that job doesn't pay?

[CPLMike89]

Are these the same guys looking for a Skyvan driver on our jobs forum?
Wonder how much that job doesn't pay?

Naww, Parachute school of Toronto is looking for a driver for their NAFTA skyvan and they do actually pay their pilots (although I don't believe its much), the accident Caravan belongs to skydive Toronto, AKA the same guy that asks you to pay for a 182 "Type rating" what a bunch of bull.