College of Pilots

[highlander]

I am renewing! I am proud to be a member. I think it is absolutely ignorant to expect this grassroots organization to immediately have any impact on the Canadian aviation landscape. What the college needs is not only support from membership but also people to step up and volunteer and help. I signed up as an ambassador and I would encourage people who seriously believe in this to email the college, tell them you might be willing to help. Some of the greatest organizations out there have come to depend on volunteers. Don't be too quick to criticize.

[ipilot54]

You make the assumption the posts on this site represent a majority of Canadian pilots.

YOU are the one making assumptions and are incorrect. No need to go into details though, suffice it to say, I have been around the industry for a "while". (too long???)

And yes, there are many professionals out there but we are not talking about newbies in 703/4 ops.

[Doc]

To all those that say they will take a "wait and see approach" or remain "a spectator" I ask you WHY?!?! If you want the College to succeed than it needs your support, not your observations.

If somebody were to need your help to cross tha road would you "remain spectator" and see if they made it or go and help? How about taking a "wait to see" approach to see if they get hit by a car before you offer your assistance?

This profession will never change so long as pilots are not willing to try and make the change themselves. The negative opinions on here are an example of the reasons the progress has been slow. You want change, MAKE IT HAPPEN!! Don't wait to see if someone will make it for you.

When they publish a mandate to address certain issues which are paramount in my mind to young pilots, perhaps they will receive support from the "nay-sayers" such as myself. These are: working conditions, livable wages, the end of "pushing", the end of bonds, cash up front, and all levels and types of what can only be called "indentured servitude", companies deciding who shall crew flights (not third parties like "Contrail", fair hiring practices, not based on gender bias etc., an end to ramp/dock servitude as a "way in" to the pilot's seats.........and a few other wee gems.....talk to me.
As far as TC relinquishing control over pilot licensing etc., to a poorly named "college"....."In the year twenty-five, twenty-five"......that'd be about the time frame.
BTW, the "support" teacher refers to is MONEY.....do you even get a membership card for your $$$.....??

[Xander]

I joined back in April.

Will renew when the time comes.

Will also try to convince my colleagues to join.

Having a professional association is the first step towards having any influence at all on the political level, and in the decision making process. Agreed there is still lots to be done, but do you ask a newborn baby to pay the rent? Didn't think so.

The mentoring program is a much better idea than what young pilots currently have i.e. the usual "should I become a pilot" thread on this forum.

Can someone clarify this: is it going tombe free to join for AC pilots? I think I read that in the last president's letter but maybe I misunderstood.

If this is true, it's a major talking point when I try to sell the College to my fellow AC pilots.

[single_swine_herder]

..... content edited .........

The root of the problem is - and we said this before - that the "profession" of piloting is too easy to access, creating a never-ending glut of newbies with little to no formal education all the way to masters degrees - willing to do anything to build-up hours. Pilots are not respected at all within the ranks of operators and management at all levels. Trust me, they shit on all of us, period. Essentially, we are considered glorified bus or backhoe drivers. Yup, that includes all of us from helos to heavy iron starched-shirts and all, no matter the paycheck or the number of bars on the epaulettes. ......

Now here's where I start to become worried. So just who will decide if "good old Joe's" son Joe Jr will be allowed to get a Commercial Pilot's Licence? Who will be the group that sits around the Central Planning Council desk and control the flow of young people into the industry, and why should they suddenly be trusted to manage the resource?

Sounds like a play book out of the former Soviet Union where they attempted to plan the economy, doled out training in certain occupations (generally based upon strength of political affiliation, or bribes,) and issued pay and other privileges based upon the Central Planning Committee's "Glorious Five Year Plan."

So let's say that the select group determines that this year, only 16 people should be allowed to become pilots.... (or maybe none at all for about 5 years) .... . because after all, there would have to be some time period where the present glut of oversupply would need to be eliminated before entering into the new era in the Canadian aviation equivalent of the Trudeau govt "Wage & Price Controls."

Where would these people train? I would guess it wouldn't be at your local mom & pop FTU, the larger schools are constantly bashed as being "Puppy Mills" that have been deemed by the senior posters on here to be staffed by brainless boobs .... so those companies would all be put out of business except for teaching a few PPL and Recreational Pilot Permits a year.

There would need to be an approved one or two university type programs somewhere in the country. Good luck with that. A CPL and a four year degree would be a good 150 K .... easily a number well within reach of a young person who rode his/her bike to the airport for 10 years out of a love of airplanes.

So do we devolve to the type of practises used by Trans Canada Airlines in the 50's when the max hiring age was 21 .... where if you were related to a Captain flying the line, you were pretty much guaranteed a job in a nepotism filled workplace?

How about equipment advancement? Are we going to control that too? Maybe when someone enrolls in flight training, we should assign him or her a seniority number and tattoo it on their wrist so they could plan their careers and pay scales with some degree of certainty regardless of competency, or merit.

Once you start going down the road of meddling in the basic laws of the free economy, you're heading in a direction that I (for one) would find reprehensible.

If my grandsons decide they want to be in the business someday, let 'em ... and let 'em do it based on their own initiative and entrepreneurial spirit ....... I've been hearing the same old song & dance for 50 years, as did my grandfather before me .... too many pilots, too few jobs. Yup .... that's true.

But here's a full page headline in bold font..... "it ain't new."

[Doc]

For those of you so willing to allow others to control your future, single_swine_herder's above post should be required reading.

[Dh8Classic]

Now here's where I start to become worried. So just who will decide if "good old Joe's" son Joe Jr will be allowed to get a Commercial Pilot's Licence? Who will be the group that sits around the Central Planning Council desk and control the flow of young people into the industry, and why should they suddenly be trusted to manage the resource?

That brings up an interesting point. Would this group say something like....Hey, I went to University for 4 years so anybody who wants an airline job has to otherwise....too damn bad for you.

[Legacy]

For those of you so willing to allow others to control your future, single_swine_herder's above post should be required reading.

This is done on so many levels for so many careers in the first place! For starters the cost of going to university. As it is right now pilots are destroying the career as it is. At this rate there will be nothing left of it that is respectable in about 15 years. So we should be trying a new approach with it. Maybe it will weed out all the pilots that live off mommy and daddy and will work for peanuts on the entry level positions or pay for ppc BS.

[jeta1]

Agreed, there should be no controlled access to the profession. But to suggest that the profession is worthy of the word "College", now there is the conflict. There is in fact nothing "collegiate" about getting a CPL - unlike doctors, engineers, lawyers or R.Ns. - and obviously everyone wants to keep it this way. Therefore the pilot career paths or options should remain open to all, but the group should be more appropriately called the "Professional Pilots Association of Canada". For me the word "college" is what will always conflict with any potential credibility of the "CPP" where credibility is needed. We are five years into this debate now (posts on the College already go back to 2008) and this WORD is what is holding it back.

[Doc]

I joined back in April.

Will renew when the time comes.

Will also try to convince my colleagues to join.

Having a professional association is the first step towards having any influence at all on the political level, and in the decision making process. Agreed there is still lots to be done, but do you ask a newborn baby to pay the rent? Didn't think so.

The mentoring program is a much better idea than what young pilots currently have i.e. the usual "should I become a pilot" thread on this forum.

Can someone clarify this: is it going tombe free to join for AC pilots? I think I read that in the last president's letter but maybe I misunderstood.

If this is true, it's a major talking point when I try to sell the College to my fellow AC pilots.

I have to assume you tried to type "is this going to BE FREE to join for AC pilots...."????
The segment of the aviation industry in this country that can MOST AFFORD to pay for a membership, will get one for FREE? You had better be kidding. If I'm a struggling Bearskin pilot, wondering how I'll ever survive my TEN THOUSAND DOLLAR LOAN I took our to buy my job.....do you think I'll spare a dime for something some Boeing 777 driver gets for FREE Not too bloody likely, mate!

[Boreas]

I absolutely agree with Doc on the free membership for AC guys. It would actually be kind of funny.

When I first heard about this college, I remember asking a couple of people I work with - I work overseas - if they had something similar in their respective countries. One reply stuck with me: Apparently there's an organization in Spain that has a similar mission and similar stated objectives. However, I was told that it was effectively a bunch of guys that work at Iberia, that have BBQs and golf outings and that do absolutely nothing to improve the industry - at least for the lower echelons.

Take it for what it's worth of course. Although I have to say, it's not an unlikely scenario.

[7thirtyseven]

College: company, group ; specifically : an organized body of persons engaged in a common pursuit or having common interests or duties 5 a: a group of persons considered by law to be a unit


Of course the idiot pilots would assume it means some kind of higher education will automatically follow... Wrong def. Gentlemen.

Here we have an organization of volunters attempting to help the next generation have a better future and the clowns come out.... "What have they done for me?" "Its the soviet union all over again" "no one shpuld be allowed to work on docks" blahblah blah. Think friends... Right now we are NOT a proffesion.. In any form. Our only chance is through this college... Keep in mind though that the doctors, lawyers etc have had millenia for the proffession to develop... Especially some doctors basics were laid down several thousand yrs ago. Expecting the "college to provide miracle returns in a few short years is typical pilot idiocy....

Now you can go ahead and argue if we want to be a profession all you want, thats a fair arguement to have.

[Doc]

College: company, group ; specifically : an organized body of persons engaged in a common pursuit or having common interests or duties 5 a: a group of persons considered by law to be a unit

Expecting the "college to provide miracle returns in a few short years is typical pilot idiocy....

Now you can go ahead and argue if we want to be a profession all you want, thats a fair arguement to have.

So, not expecting "miracles" here, but what have they done? Where's their mandate to actually improve ANYTHING for young pilots? Furthermore, if it's just a word, "college", why not use just a word...."association"?
You seem to think they are going to improve the industry for the next generation of pilots. Okay, I'll bite. BY DOING WHAT EXACTLY? Allowing Air Canada pilots free memberships? By imposing THEIR ideals of "ethics" upon the rest of us? By trying to take over licensing and controlling access to the "profession"? Meat and potatoes time children. Screw the sizzle, lets see the STEAK!

[Dockjock]

I'm renewing, easy choice. The what have you don't for me lately crowd...Doc et al- do you think they're gonna come up to Thunder Bay and get you a raise on your King Air? Yah a real issue of national importance.

This won't grow without support, so congratulations to those "waiting and seeing" so you can say I told ya so if it fails. As for airline membership, ACPA, WJ pilots and ALPA all contributed seed money, and members got discounted fees. Had they been given memberships, we would already have 5500 members but hey, airline pilots are rich so screw them!

This won't succeed if nobody joins. This board has been a whine-fest for almost 15 years, I honestly cannot fathom that many of the old timers wouldn't think a national college would be a good idea. Suit yourself but its pretty stupid to expect progress without support.

[Legacy]

Some people are just plain selfish. Me me me me me. Gets annoying

[El Comat]

I will be renewing without thinking twice. This is a chance to start a small snowball down the hill that could bring great change in the medium- to long-term. Expecting short-term "rewards" is absolutely ridiculous! It's $5/month people!!!! My union dues when I left Jazz were TWELVE TIMES that. Lets give the College a chance to gain momentum. The best way to give that momentum is to sign up so they can have some strength in numbers. Don't enroll for yourself, enroll for the future of the "profession" (let's hope we can get there!).

EC

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Well for whatever it is worth I no longer fly for a living, but I am a member of this new group because at least someone is trying to improve aviation....

....hopefully as it gets bigger the elected people will figure out how to better the industry.

[ea306]

Well for whatever it is worth I no longer fly for a living, but I am a member of this new group because at least someone is trying to improve aviation....

....hopefully as it gets bigger the elected people will figure out how to better the industry.

And isn't that a refreshing change in itself?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

And isn't that a refreshing change in itself?

Yes.

The reason far to many pilots are working in stone age conditions and slavery pay is mainly because they have no power in numbers because they are not organized.

[TomM]

Hello All,

It's amazing how the conversation here can be so circular.

Today is a reflective day for me as it was one year ago today that we opened the website 8 Aug 2012.

As far as AC pilots joining for free: No.

In 2009-10, the pilot associations of Air Canada, WestJet, Sunwing, Air Georgian and the former pilots association of Skyservice all contributed what equated to roughly $10 per pilot (ACPA gave 32K, WJPA $10K, etc). So, in our first year of offering memberships, the board agreed to offer thanks to these pilot groups by offering reduced rate memberships $50 vs. the full $60. That offer is running out Sept 1, assuming we can get the IT piece sorted out. So, in short, no free memberships.

We viewed the above money as "in kind" donations with no strings attached. In an effort to distance ourselves from the unions/ associations, we opted to the above discount to pay that back to those pilots. And, as I said above, that thank you ends 1 Sept.

No ALPA-Canada affiliated pilot groups provided seed money.

We also have $20 memberships for PPLs in CPL training and this fall, we are offering retired pilots $20 memberships AND a vote. We are showing respect to those that have passed before us through the vote. PPLs in CPL training are not given voting privileges.

As far as what we've done this past year, it is essentially building infrastructure and identifying areas of interest for the future boards to tackle. We took in roughly $61,000 worth of membership fees from a little more that 1,100 pilots and incurred just short of $28,000 of expenses (meetings, IT, legal fees, banking fees, etc.) so we had at the end of fiscal year 1 (2012-13) a surplus of just over $33,000.

Our annual report will be up on the website in the fall and will explain all of this and more in detail.

Am I proud of what we've accomplished in the past year? Yes and no. I believe we have done a lot with the limited resources we have. Could we have done more? Perhaps, if there were 8 days in a week and 27 hrs in a day. That doesn't mean that I eat, breathe this thing, I just mean that I also take time to fly a full block, commute to work between Moncton and Toronto and be a husband and father to teenaged daughters. Please, I am not seeking your pity or admiration, I am simply painting the reality of the picture. All the other board members have stories that are a variation on that theme.

This fall will see the national elections. I hope that we will get a slate of great candidates to take the project forward and add more legitimacy to this.

Again, in the circular nature of this forum, the college has no interest in limiting the number of pilots in Canada. If anything, we hope to encourage young people to consider aviation as a career, so I kind of view that as the opposite.

If you want to learn more, get the facts from our website www.collegeofpilots.ca

Sincerely,
Tom Machum
President of the Interim Board

[Doc]

I'm renewing, easy choice. The what have you don't for me lately crowd...Doc et al- do you think they're gonna come up to Thunder Bay and get you a raise on your King Air? Yah a real issue of national importance.
port.

\

Go back and actually READ my post. Don't recall making any comments AT ALL about getting a raise for myself. If you were to READ it, you would see what I want from the "college" before I will offer any of MY support. It's ALL about working conditions for YOUNG pilots....go ahead.....read it!

i see NO reason to support an organization that I don't agree with.

[CFR]

What was it Groucho Marx said? "I wouldn't join any organization that would have me as a member!"

[URC]

What the college wants to accomplish is going to cost millions of dollars. A service that is already being funded by the taxpayers. I suspect having pilots absorbing these costs themselves in the form of yet more user fees would have the opposite effect of attracting more people to the "profession". Also, show me a political system, democracy, that doesn't end up polarizing people, 50%+1. It's clear that the MAJORITY of the pilots in this country are not interested in this ridiculous pipe dream. It will get very interesting if the very small MINORITY of pilots running this thing try and change the political mandate without a clear MAJORITY of the pilots onside.

[CFR]

What the college wants to accomplish is going to cost millions of dollars. A service that is already being funded by the taxpayers. I suspect having pilots absorbing these costs themselves in the form of yet more user fees would have the opposite effect of attracting more people to the "profession". Also, show me a political system, democracy, that doesn't end up polarizing people, 50%+1. It's clear that the MAJORITY of the pilots in this country are not interested in this ridiculous pipe dream. It will get very interesting if the very small MINORITY of pilots running this thing try and change the political mandate without a clear MAJORITY of the pilots onside.

A knowledgeable self monitored professional organization that sets its own standards often precludes ignorant government intervention through regulation.

[Xander]

Hello All,

It's amazing how the conversation here can be so circular.

Today is a reflective day for me as it was one year ago today that we opened the website 8 Aug 2012.

As far as AC pilots joining for free: No.

In 2009-10, the pilot associations of Air Canada, WestJet, Sunwing, Air Georgian and the former pilots association of Skyservice all contributed what equated to roughly $10 per pilot (ACPA gave 32K, WJPA $10K, etc). So, in our first year of offering memberships, the board agreed to offer thanks to these pilot groups by offering reduced rate memberships $50 vs. the full $60. That offer is running out Sept 1, assuming we can get the IT piece sorted out. So, in short, no free memberships.

We viewed the above money as "in kind" donations with no strings attached. In an effort to distance ourselves from the unions/ associations, we opted to the above discount to pay that back to those pilots. And, as I said above, that thank you ends 1 Sept.

No ALPA-Canada affiliated pilot groups provided seed money.

We also have $20 memberships for PPLs in CPL training and this fall, we are offering retired pilots $20 memberships AND a vote. We are showing respect to those that have passed before us through the vote. PPLs in CPL training are not given voting privileges.

As far as what we've done this past year, it is essentially building infrastructure and identifying areas of interest for the future boards to tackle. We took in roughly $61,000 worth of membership fees from a little more that 1,100 pilots and incurred just short of $28,000 of expenses (meetings, IT, legal fees, banking fees, etc.) so we had at the end of fiscal year 1 (2012-13) a surplus of just over $33,000.

Our annual report will be up on the website in the fall and will explain all of this and more in detail.

Am I proud of what we've accomplished in the past year? Yes and no. I believe we have done a lot with the limited resources we have. Could we have done more? Perhaps, if there were 8 days in a week and 27 hrs in a day. That doesn't mean that I eat, breathe this thing, I just mean that I also take time to fly a full block, commute to work between Moncton and Toronto and be a husband and father to teenaged daughters. Please, I am not seeking your pity or admiration, I am simply painting the reality of the picture. All the other board members have stories that are a variation on that theme.

This fall will see the national elections. I hope that we will get a slate of great candidates to take the project forward and add more legitimacy to this.

Again, in the circular nature of this forum, the college has no interest in limiting the number of pilots in Canada. If anything, we hope to encourage young people to consider aviation as a career, so I kind of view that as the opposite.

If you want to learn more, get the facts from our website http://www.collegeofpilots.ca

Sincerely,
Tom Machum
President of the Interim Board

Tanks for the clarifications Tom, much appreciated. Also thanks to you and the staff at the CPPC for undertaking this huge task while flying a full block on the line and taking care of your family at the same time...keep up the good work!

I'll keep talking about the college to my colleagues regardless of the joining fee.

Cheers.