WJE Flow through
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Re: WJE Flow through
Wait a minute, so do i interpret this right?....
U join WJE.
U are right seat for a year
You then get the nod for left seat.
You say yes, of course.
You do ur training. Ur now a skipper.
WJ mainline is now nocking on ur door.... u have to come here within the next year you "forfeit" your right to come to mainline. ( I assume, if there are positions open)
As a concerned WJ'er you say ok ill come to Mainline. Someone takes ur seat in the left seat and the cycle repeats.
My thought is... The pilots at Encore especially the skipper, are going to be fairly "green" in almost all situations. The reason is, the timeline as you upgrade and move through WJE is at the pace that if you do not accept a position (when one comes up) you give up your chance of going to mainline. In my view, you've giving the pilots almost no choice in wanting to stay at Encore for either pay/schedule/left seat experience/yadda yadda yadda, because your chances of getting to mainline diminish. Essentially what I'm trying to say is buddy in the left seat of that thing most likely doesn't have much experience flying in left seat of a Q400 and doesn't really get a fair shot at moving up to mainline at his or her own pace. It's more of a push in my opinion.
Am I grossly misinformed?
U join WJE.
U are right seat for a year
You then get the nod for left seat.
You say yes, of course.
You do ur training. Ur now a skipper.
WJ mainline is now nocking on ur door.... u have to come here within the next year you "forfeit" your right to come to mainline. ( I assume, if there are positions open)
As a concerned WJ'er you say ok ill come to Mainline. Someone takes ur seat in the left seat and the cycle repeats.
My thought is... The pilots at Encore especially the skipper, are going to be fairly "green" in almost all situations. The reason is, the timeline as you upgrade and move through WJE is at the pace that if you do not accept a position (when one comes up) you give up your chance of going to mainline. In my view, you've giving the pilots almost no choice in wanting to stay at Encore for either pay/schedule/left seat experience/yadda yadda yadda, because your chances of getting to mainline diminish. Essentially what I'm trying to say is buddy in the left seat of that thing most likely doesn't have much experience flying in left seat of a Q400 and doesn't really get a fair shot at moving up to mainline at his or her own pace. It's more of a push in my opinion.
Am I grossly misinformed?
Re: WJE Flow through
dude, i think hiring a wj will be a lot slower than encore
Re: WJE Flow through
The way I read it is if WJ calls you up and you pass, you have 2 years from then or you forfeit your spot. Not 2 years from when you start....200Above wrote:Wait a minute, so do i interpret this right?....
U join WJE.
U are right seat for a year
You then get the nod for left seat.
You say yes, of course.
You do ur training. Ur now a skipper.
WJ mainline is now nocking on ur door.... u have to come here within the next year you "forfeit" your right to come to mainline. ( I assume, if there are positions open)
As a concerned WJ'er you say ok ill come to Mainline. Someone takes ur seat in the left seat and the cycle repeats.
My thought is... The pilots at Encore especially the skipper, are going to be fairly "green" in almost all situations. The reason is, the timeline as you upgrade and move through WJE is at the pace that if you do not accept a position (when one comes up) you give up your chance of going to mainline. In my view, you've giving the pilots almost no choice in wanting to stay at Encore for either pay/schedule/left seat experience/yadda yadda yadda, because your chances of getting to mainline diminish. Essentially what I'm trying to say is buddy in the left seat of that thing most likely doesn't have much experience flying in left seat of a Q400 and doesn't really get a fair shot at moving up to mainline at his or her own pace. It's more of a push in my opinion.
Am I grossly misinformed?
Re: WJE Flow through
That is correct.
I've got a pretty good handle on the flow through. If anyone has specific questions please feel free to PM me....
I've got a pretty good handle on the flow through. If anyone has specific questions please feel free to PM me....
Re: WJE Flow through
I think it is pretty sad and disgusting that the only way Encore can attract people to come and work for crap pay and working conditions is by dangling a carrot; its also very revealing as to the true nature of said employer. Personally, I would be concerned with the type of individual I would be attracting under such conditions; an individual who is not only willing to sell themselves short but also fail to see the long term consequences that their actions have on the industry as a whole, are not characteristics I would find terribly enduring--particularity for an airline that likes to tout "Team Work." I might be wrong, but I suspect that the number of pilots willing to allow themselves to be so clearly manipulated is dwindling. But if I am wrong, I sure the hell can not wait until I can rid myself of this industry once and for all.
Re: WJE Flow through
True. Perhaps instead of the WJ flowthrough program it should be called the WJ INTERN Program as it would appear that is what WJ views the Encore pilots as - interns that are required to earn their spot at WJ (and subsidise that opportunity).truedude wrote:I think it is pretty sad and disgusting that the only way Encore can attract people to come and work for crap pay and working conditions is by dangling a carrot; its also very revealing as to the true nature of said employer. Personally, I would be concerned with the type of individual I would be attracting under such conditions; an individual who is not only willing to sell themselves short but also fail to see the long term consequences that their actions have on the industry as a whole, are not characteristics I would find terribly enduring--particularity for an airline that likes to tout "Team Work." I might be wrong, but I suspect that the number of pilots willing to allow themselves to be so clearly manipulated is dwindling. But if I am wrong, I sure the hell can not wait until I can rid myself of this industry once and for all.
Re: WJE Flow through
Truedude & Rudder,
So let me get this straight: WJ and WJPA make an agreement that completely prevents whipsawing (something your airline has years of experience with) and it's a bad thing? Give your head a shake. Would it have been better if there was no flow? The pay is what it is, I know it sucks, and I know all you want is more pay for WJE pilots so you can try to extract more $$ during your own negotiations. You care only about yourself and cleverly disguise it as a concern for the welfare of WJE pilots. Typical trade unionism.
If I was in the position of looking at WJE or Porter/Jazz, etc, I'd rather have poor pay for 2 years and an all but guarantee at a decent job than what you have: a good wage and no guarantee that I will ever make more money. Keep in mind, by the time a Jazz pilot makes better money (year 3) the comparable WJE pilot is at WJ. After 4 years, the Jazz pilot is still making ~60k while the WJ pilot is making well over $100k.
So let me get this straight: WJ and WJPA make an agreement that completely prevents whipsawing (something your airline has years of experience with) and it's a bad thing? Give your head a shake. Would it have been better if there was no flow? The pay is what it is, I know it sucks, and I know all you want is more pay for WJE pilots so you can try to extract more $$ during your own negotiations. You care only about yourself and cleverly disguise it as a concern for the welfare of WJE pilots. Typical trade unionism.
If I was in the position of looking at WJE or Porter/Jazz, etc, I'd rather have poor pay for 2 years and an all but guarantee at a decent job than what you have: a good wage and no guarantee that I will ever make more money. Keep in mind, by the time a Jazz pilot makes better money (year 3) the comparable WJE pilot is at WJ. After 4 years, the Jazz pilot is still making ~60k while the WJ pilot is making well over $100k.
Re: WJE Flow through
And that,my friends,is how management can get away with lowering the conditions more and more.Bede wrote: I'd rather have poor pay for 2 years and an all but guarantee at a decent job than what you have: a good wage and no guarantee that I will ever make more money. Keep in mind, by the time a Jazz pilot makes better money (year 3) the comparable WJE pilot is at WJ. After 4 years, the Jazz pilot is still making ~60k while the WJ pilot is making well over $100k.
Typical shortsighted view. You don't seem to understand the long term consequences Bede.
I find it appalling from a fellow pilot. Makes me wanna puke...
And that is why we have pilots flying Embraer jets in the US for 19000$ a year,as they hope to have a better salary once (if?) they get hired at a major...
Re: WJE Flow through
This is assuming of course there is room for the Encore pilot to move to mainline. Stagnant growth at mainline while Encore grows will only see the Encore pilot staying where they are. Will an Encore pilot hired in 2 years from now be at mainline in 4?Bede wrote: If I was in the position of looking at WJE or Porter/Jazz, etc, I'd rather have poor pay for 2 years and an all but guarantee at a decent job ..... Keep in mind, by the time a Jazz pilot makes better money (year 3) the comparable WJE pilot is at WJ. After 4 years...
Re: WJE Flow through
Bede,Bede wrote:Truedude & Rudder,
So let me get this straight: WJ and WJPA make an agreement that completely prevents whipsawing (something your airline has years of experience with) and it's a bad thing? Give your head a shake. Would it have been better if there was no flow? The pay is what it is, I know it sucks, and I know all you want is more pay for WJE pilots so you can try to extract more $$ during your own negotiations. You care only about yourself and cleverly disguise it as a concern for the welfare of WJE pilots. Typical trade unionism.
If I was in the position of looking at WJE or Porter/Jazz, etc, I'd rather have poor pay for 2 years and an all but guarantee at a decent job than what you have: a good wage and no guarantee that I will ever make more money. Keep in mind, by the time a Jazz pilot makes better money (year 3) the comparable WJE pilot is at WJ. After 4 years, the Jazz pilot is still making ~60k while the WJ pilot is making well over $100k.
If ACPA had ended up with WJ-20% for a pay scale and that was being used against you at the bargaining table then you would be unhappy too. The WJPA cares only about itself and cleverly disguise it as a concern for the welfare of WJE pilots. Turnabout is fair play.
Re: WJE Flow through
Rudder,
The pay is actually market median -10% with the balance coming from EPP and profit share. Median -20% was originally proposed but it was really pathetic so the WJPA and management agreed to increase to median - 10%. That is the same way the execs and WJ pilots are paid. Other than the crummy schedule right now, I am confident that the T4 for a WJE pilot will be similar to a Jazz pilot. You do of course have a pension plan which is worth a lot.
Isn't it ironic how this whole industry seems to be hell bent on attacking each other wage structures? Remember Jazz was at one time the scourge of this industry for flying CRJ's for 30% less than AC. Then Jazz accepted B757's for RJ wages (yes I know status pay - I supported you on that).
The WJPA cares about WJ and WJE pilots. It cares for Jazz pilots as much as ALPA cares for WJ pilots. (ALPA doesn't even care for it's own pilots - see Sunwing foreign pilot issue which ALPA has done nothing about).
The pay is actually market median -10% with the balance coming from EPP and profit share. Median -20% was originally proposed but it was really pathetic so the WJPA and management agreed to increase to median - 10%. That is the same way the execs and WJ pilots are paid. Other than the crummy schedule right now, I am confident that the T4 for a WJE pilot will be similar to a Jazz pilot. You do of course have a pension plan which is worth a lot.
Isn't it ironic how this whole industry seems to be hell bent on attacking each other wage structures? Remember Jazz was at one time the scourge of this industry for flying CRJ's for 30% less than AC. Then Jazz accepted B757's for RJ wages (yes I know status pay - I supported you on that).
The WJPA cares about WJ and WJE pilots. It cares for Jazz pilots as much as ALPA cares for WJ pilots. (ALPA doesn't even care for it's own pilots - see Sunwing foreign pilot issue which ALPA has done nothing about).
Re: WJE Flow through
I can assure you that statement is complete "bunk".....The WJPA cares only about itself and cleverly disguise it as a concern for the welfare of WJE pilots. Turnabout is fair play.
Re: WJE Flow through
That might be one of the stupidest things I have ever read. This isn't about making sure I can "extract" more money during my negotiations; its about ensuring that pilots, ALL pilots, are appropriately compensated. And I am sorry, but what Encore is paying their left seat pilots is beyond disgusting. And for you to come on here and actually try to defend it is sick. What you seem to fail to understand in that incredibly short sighted post, is that when one pilot group gets payed less than they are worth, it effects us all negatively. Eventually that downward pressure created by this little experiment will run full circle, and the Westjet pilots will find themselves in the disagreeable position of being paid more than industry average--and I am sure it will happen at the most opportune moment for management. They will continue to add one year extensions to your current contract until the economy softens, then they will strike--and they will be asking for a lot more than an extra day of work. And it will be a position entirely of your own making.Bede wrote:So let me get this straight: WJ and WJPA make an agreement that completely prevents whipsawing (something your airline has years of experience with) and it's a bad thing? Give your head a shake. Would it have been better if there was no flow? The pay is what it is, I know it sucks, and I know all you want is more pay for WJE pilots so you can try to extract more $$ during your own negotiations. You care only about yourself and cleverly disguise it as a concern for the welfare of WJE pilots. Typical trade unionism.
I also find it rather sad that you think all pilots want to work for Westjet. I am happy were I am, and I shouldn't have to keep looking over my shoulder for the rest of my career because a couple suits somewhere have come up with a creative solution to extract more profit from and operation. And I sure the hell shouldn't have to defend myself to another pilot who seems to think that this is somehow a good thing. I can work the rest of my life at Jazz (under our current contract) and make a decent wage and raise a family comfortably. How is that a bad thing?
Re: WJE Flow through
I'm glad you're happy at Jazz. It's probably the best regional job in the country. Good group of guys and good pay. I worked there for 4 years.truedude wrote: I also find it rather sad that you think all pilots want to work for Westjet. I am happy were I am, and I shouldn't have to keep looking over my shoulder for the rest of my career because a couple suits somewhere have come up with a creative solution to extract more profit from and operation. And I sure the hell shouldn't have to defend myself to another pilot who seems to think that this is somehow a good thing. I can work the rest of my life at Jazz (under our current contract) and make a decent wage and raise a family comfortably. How is that a bad thing?
I hate to break it to you but the WJPA's job is not to look after your interests. Sorry. Did ALPA look out for SkyService pilot's interests when it offered to fly 757's at RJ wages? How about when it was constantly trying to get Air Canada narrow body flying. I was there and it was talked about a lot. Talk about pot calling the kettle black. I'm not faulting you, your just doing what's best for your career. The issue is that you fault others for doing the same.
Re: WJE Flow through
You seem to have a bit of revisionist history going on. First, I think you fail to understand how group pay actually works. What Jazz was charged by the pilot group to crew the 757's was not RJ wages. They were charged a fairly standard 57 wage, it was then just spread around amongst all pilots. Second, that flying was lost from SkyService before Jazz stepped in; it was only a matter of where the flying was going to end up. As for the narrow body flying from Air Canada: That may be a fantasy from some disgruntled pilots that goes back long before we were there, but that is all it is. It will never happen. And as far as WJPA, they are doing their own pilots a disservice by allowing the company to pay what they are paying. I am not sure how you fail to see that no matter what company we work for, the relationship amongst pilots is symbiotic. When one group forces other groups down, eventually it will swing back around and drag that first group back down. It is unlikely that any pilot at Westjet will see a raise for the foreseeable future. But I can guarantee you that if the economy turns sideways that your management is going to come to you with their hands out asking for something back.Bede wrote: hate to break it to you but the WJPA's job is not to look after your interests. Sorry. Did ALPA look out for SkyService pilot's interests when it offered to fly 757's at RJ wages? How about when it was constantly trying to get Air Canada narrow body flying. I was there and it was talked about a lot. Talk about pot calling the kettle black. I'm not faulting you, your just doing what's best for your career. The issue is that you fault others for doing the same.
Re: WJE Flow through
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Last edited by Bede on Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: WJE Flow through
Of choose there was no disappointment at jazz about the Embrarers going to SR. you were trying so hard to have them stay at air Canada.truedude wrote: As for the narrow body flying from Air Canada: That may be a fantasy from some disgruntled pilots that goes back long before we were there, but that is all it is. It will never happen. And as far as WJPA, they are doing their own pilots a disservice by allowing the company to pay what they are paying. I am not sure how you fail to see that no matter what company we work for, the relationship amongst pilots is symbiotic. When one group forces other groups down, eventually it will swing back around and drag that first group back down. It is unlikely that any pilot at Westjet will see a raise for the foreseeable future. But I can guarantee you that if the economy turns sideways that your management is going to come to you with their hands out asking for something back.
I never defended the pay at encore. I actually said it sucked. This thread is about the flow agreement which I defended and you attacked.
Anyways, back to our regular scheduled programming about the flow.
Re: WJE Flow through
It has been insinuated here that jazz took the 57's from sky service when In fact it was only after sky service went tits up that jazz got the contract from Thomas cook flying. I would also like to point out that those very planes are now being operated by FOREIGN PILOTS under the Westjet banner, along with the other seat miles in your 37's, presumingly for LESS than jazz could do it for since TC paid millions to break the contract with jazz. Imagine that.
I don't see how anyone can say the WJPA is looking out for WJE pilots. Just look at the Encore WACON and FLOW to see this new low. The WJPA has truly earned the title LACPA, a derogatory term that has been coined from the other side of your bargaining table. Sad to see from the outside what has happened to your once great employer guys, as you are now the "bench markers", we hope you can turn your ship around before you become just another airline.
I don't see how anyone can say the WJPA is looking out for WJE pilots. Just look at the Encore WACON and FLOW to see this new low. The WJPA has truly earned the title LACPA, a derogatory term that has been coined from the other side of your bargaining table. Sad to see from the outside what has happened to your once great employer guys, as you are now the "bench markers", we hope you can turn your ship around before you become just another airline.
Re: WJE Flow through
Of course we were disappointed. If flying is going to be farmed out, we would have liked to have seen it come our way; but we were WAY to expensive. And as for the flying being farmed out, that is not because of anything ALPA did.Bede wrote:Of choose there was no disappointment at jazz about the Embrarers going to SR. you were trying so hard to have them stay at air Canada.
I never defended the pay at encore. I actually said it sucked. This thread is about the flow agreement which I defended and you attacked.
Anyways, back to our regular scheduled programming about the flow.
I did not attack the flow through from Encore to Westjet. I attacked the reason for it coming about. It isn't the result of a benevolent management group; it exists because of the degrading pay at Encore. So instead of addressing the issue head on, your management group, together with your association, did an end around. But it doesn't change the fact that the pay is degrading, and every pilot at Westjet should be humiliated that they are associated with a group that would pay that kind of money.
I would also be concerned with who I would be attracting to work for Westjet moving forward. If you are already at jazz, or flying a King Air and making more money than a captain at Encore, with bills and a family, are you really telling me that you would leave that job to go work for Encore, to maybe work at Westjet in two years, providing that someones ridiculously optimistic calculation comes to fruition, and that you haven't had a thought or said anything that hasn't first been approved by the "ministry of love." I am not saying they won't attract people, but I would be concerned as to the integrity of those individuals they do attract.
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Re: WJE Flow through
Truedude, have you applied at AirCanada? Get a job there and you will be making less than you are now. You will be making less than most Kingair drivers AND horror of horrors.... You will be living in a major Canadian city.
Carrot or not, at least we have a flow, we have a connection between the pilots at Encore and the pilots at WestJet. Is it perfect? Probably not, but it is a great start for our pilot groups to work together moving forward.
As for Wacon... Ya we probably have work to do. As things settle down moving forward the true value of Encores compensation will be revealed. Odds are it will be half decent.
The "race to the bottom" thown on the shoulders of an airline with 4 A/C 90 days into its operation is ludicrous.
Carrot or not, at least we have a flow, we have a connection between the pilots at Encore and the pilots at WestJet. Is it perfect? Probably not, but it is a great start for our pilot groups to work together moving forward.
As for Wacon... Ya we probably have work to do. As things settle down moving forward the true value of Encores compensation will be revealed. Odds are it will be half decent.
The "race to the bottom" thown on the shoulders of an airline with 4 A/C 90 days into its operation is ludicrous.
Re: WJE Flow through
Your are right that you will be making less money at Air Canada to start; but I would also argue career progression would be a little more certain at AC than this little expirment. Because if you are going to seriously try and sell to people that when Encore reaches maximum capacity that it will take only 2 years to flow through to Westjet, you either haven't thought it out very well, or you are simply lying. As for the flow through, it has nothing to do with the pilot groups working together, and everything to do with the bottom line. You can try to wrap it up into a pretty package, but under the facade is still the same pile of B.S.7thirtyseven wrote:Truedude, have you applied at AirCanada? Get a job there and you will be making less than you are now. You will be making less than most Kingair drivers AND horror of horrors.... You will be living in a major Canadian city.
Carrot or not, at least we have a flow, we have a connection between the pilots at Encore and the pilots at WestJet. Is it perfect? Probably not, but it is a great start for our pilot groups to work together moving forward.
As for Wacon... Ya we probably have work to do. As things settle down moving forward the true value of Encores compensation will be revealed. Odds are it will be half decent.
The "race to the bottom" thown on the shoulders of an airline with 4 A/C 90 days into its operation is ludicrous.
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Re: WJE Flow through
Ive had enough airline jobs to know that having pilot groups working together is a HUGE bonus for me personally.
No one is making promises of 2 yrs... When an Encore pilots "placeholder" comes up he has 2 yrs to refuse it before it becomes dormant. Big issue? No. But it may give someone the luxury of holding off till a place in the base he/she prefers at WestJet comes up. It also puts a cap on things so that it all doesnt become unmanagable.
Like you, I in general lean to the side of pilots demanding more for their skill/time. Unlike you I cant blame individuals for their own conclusions and I see it through supply/demand glasses. Got my fingers crossed that the percieved difficulty of Encore attracting qualified guys is a signal that we have all reached the bottom and that things for us all will start towards the upswing.
No one is making promises of 2 yrs... When an Encore pilots "placeholder" comes up he has 2 yrs to refuse it before it becomes dormant. Big issue? No. But it may give someone the luxury of holding off till a place in the base he/she prefers at WestJet comes up. It also puts a cap on things so that it all doesnt become unmanagable.
Like you, I in general lean to the side of pilots demanding more for their skill/time. Unlike you I cant blame individuals for their own conclusions and I see it through supply/demand glasses. Got my fingers crossed that the percieved difficulty of Encore attracting qualified guys is a signal that we have all reached the bottom and that things for us all will start towards the upswing.
Re: WJE Flow through
The one thing Encore has and will always have in its corner is us, the WJ pilots. Most of whom have been at one regional or another and have seen things like flow and whipsawing go side ways. Yes there are obvious concerns and IMO mistakes already made but its a work in progress. The WAWCON will improve, the flow through will get proven, the kinks will get ironed out and the nawsayers will still bitch.
Like all things time will tell.
Like all things time will tell.
Re: WJE Flow through
Nobody has addressed my question. I guess it is because nobody has considered it? Westjet growth cannot continue forever. There will at least be stagnation and probably contraction in the future. Then what?
yycflyguy wrote:What happens in times of mainline contraction? Will there be a flowback of mainline pilots into Encore positions meaning bottom guy at Encore faces furlough?
Re: WJE Flow through
Of course I don't believe that it is true. If you look, I was simply repeating verbatim the same overly aggressive accusation that was used in one of the replies. I guess that I should have added a smiley face so that it would have been understood as tongue in cheek. The blanket suggestion that unionized pilot groups are mired only in self interest is not supported by the facts.WJ200 wrote:I can assure you that statement is complete "bunk".....The WJPA cares only about itself and cleverly disguise it as a concern for the welfare of WJE pilots. Turnabout is fair play.
And now, it would appear that there are some divergent views within the WJ pilot group about representational alternatives going forward:
http://www.wppa.ca
I am sure that it is making for an interesting internal debate.