Debt is for people in a very big hurry. I don't
buy stuff on credit. If I can't afford it, I don't
buy it.
If I could tell young people one thing:
Pay your credit cards off in full at the end of the month
I know, I am a silly old man that doesn't know anything.
The average Canadian’s non-mortgage debt – which includes credit cards, car loans, instalment loans and lines of credit – reached $26,935 in the first quarter
Terrifying. It's a good thing that interest rates will
never, ever go up.
Yup .... another excellent bit of advice from Dave Ramsey ....... I've been doing that for decades and now have a hard time using the card at all .... for almost anything except confirming bookings .... and then I pay them on the same day.
I've been debt free within a year or so of starting to listen to his radio show and podcasts and am a strong proponent of his doctrine.
In my stupid days, I made the huge mistake of buying a new car rather than a used one and letting some other sucker take the hit on depreciation. Would you go and borrow money to buy Nortel stock when it was heading for 2 bucks a share? Well .... that's what you're doing when you finance a car loan ..... because after all .... "You can't get anything good for less money."
For the poster who was turned off by Ramsey's expression of his faith ...... so what. Take the stuff you like and leave the rest alone. I can tell you that following his advice has put me in a different world of financial stability and independence of thought and action.
One of the most gratifying things I learned to do was to anonymously pay for a meal for a fellow in uniform with his family then stand off to one side and watch his reaction, and that of his wife and kids when they are told "it's been covered by someone who just wants to say thank-you for your service and volunteering to protect us."
Colonel Sanders wrote:
Thing is, interest rates have been near zero
for so long, the youngsters can't remember
a time when they were anything but.
I do, why do you think we grew up po'? I think my parents paid some ungodly 18% interest on their first mortgage. I suppose they should have raised us in a tent to avoid debt, but it seemed to turn out ok.
If you don't take on a bit of debt, you're going to be stuck renting, which is just pissing your money in the wind. Unless of course you have a bunch of help, something that tends to be forgotten.
Debt is for people in a very big hurry. I don't
buy stuff on credit. If I can't afford it, I don't
buy it.
Sometimes life and opportunity won't wait for you to be comfortable. Everyone should be in a hurry, life is short, and you can't take the money with you.
If I could tell young people one thing:
Pay your credit cards off in full at the end of the month
I would second that too, but by everyone's theory, no one should ever have one. I thought I was clever when I was young and didn't have one for a long time, until I really needed a small bit of credit to get through a bind. I would personally tell every new pilot they should have one for emergencies, I know everyone else is self made and carries a big wad of bills around, but I'm not comfortable doing that.
single_swine_herder wrote:For the poster who was turned off by Ramsey's expression of his faith ...... so what.
Its tough to take financial advice from one side, but then condone using up your finances for another. But that's my opinion, and you can hold your own.
SSU wrote:If you don't take on a bit of debt, you're going to be stuck renting, which is just pissing your money in the wind. Unless of course you have a bunch of help, something that tends to be forgotten.
Real estate prices never go down, interest rates are going to stay low, renting is pissing your money away.
Lets look at that last one. I'm renting a condo right now. $1100 a month. This place sold for $300 000 a couple years ago, strata fees are $300 a month, taxes are minimum $1500 a year. If the owner bought the place with 10% down on a 25 year mortgage, the interest, mortgage insurance, strata fees, and taxes come to over $1100 a month. And whenever anything breaks, I pick up the phone and the owner hires a professional to come in and fix it, which isn't cheap.
If the interest rates stay at 0 and the housing prices rise at 10% a year every year until armageddon then the owner will do just fine. But if the interest rates go to 5 percent the place won't be worth what she paid for it and she won't be able to afford to pay the mortgage.
The solution is to think and especially do the math instead of making financial decisions based on cliches. I saw many people go underwater on their mortgages in a town in Northern Alberta. When they lost their jobs, they couldn't move because they couldn't sell the house.
The solution is to think and especially do the math instead of making financial decisions based on cliches. I saw many people go underwater on their mortgages in a town in Northern Alberta. When they lost their jobs, they couldn't move because they couldn't sell the house.
The problem there is people unfortunately go into way more debt than they need to. A related matter. Either way, you're correct that cliches aren't how you should base your financial decisions. "Never take on debt" goes along with "renting is wasting money" I personally dislike renting, if there are other options. As long as you don't treat it like a gambling option (like so many Albertans have) a home is always a sound investment, but like any other thing, shop wisely.
If you don't mind me saying, you're getting a steal on rent. When I signed on to my last mortgage, all in I was going to be paying around 1500/month to live there, rent on the other hand in the area had skyrocketed to a whopping $2000/ month all in. In fact I was sort of ousted, the landlord would only let me stay at my previous rental rate of $1200/ month of I signed a long term lease, which wasn't to my liking at the time.
SSU wrote:If you don't take on a bit of debt, you're going to be stuck renting, which is just pissing your money in the wind. Unless of course you have a bunch of help, something that tends to be forgotten.
Real estate prices never go down, interest rates are going to stay low, renting is pissing your money away.
Lets look at that last one. I'm renting a condo right now. $1100 a month. This place sold for $300 000 a couple years ago, strata fees are $300 a month, taxes are minimum $1500 a year. If the owner bought the place with 10% down on a 25 year mortgage, the interest, mortgage insurance, strata fees, and taxes come to over $1100 a month. And whenever anything breaks, I pick up the phone and the owner hires a professional to come in and fix it, which isn't cheap.
If the interest rates stay at 0 and the housing prices rise at 10% a year every year until armageddon then the owner will do just fine. But if the interest rates go to 5 percent the place won't be worth what she paid for it and she won't be able to afford to pay the mortgage.
The solution is to think and especially do the math instead of making financial decisions based on cliches. I saw many people go underwater on their mortgages in a town in Northern Alberta. When they lost their jobs, they couldn't move because they couldn't sell the house.
The Dave Ramsey formula for mortgage is scale your "needs vs wants" discussion so you aren't paying more than 25% of your guaranteed monthly income based on a 15 year amortization period. A down payment of 20% is preferable. Then you pay that off as soon as you can possibly manage it by eating beans and rice, and for dietary variation, you eat rice and beans .... KD and wieners is for those rich wasteful pilots .... LOL.
Then you flip it and move on up in accordance with the same formula til you reach your house goal and then pay it off in total by making sacrifices that have your friends thinking you're a nut-case.
The idea at that stage of the financial plan is to live life now like nobody else, so that later you can live life like nobody else.
ahramin wrote:If the interest rates stay at 0 and the housing prices rise at 10% a year every year until armageddon then the owner will do just fine. But if the interest rates go to 5 percent the place won't be worth what she paid for it and she won't be able to afford to pay the mortgage.
There's a "Higher Education Bubble theory", likening folks who can't find a good enough job to pay their student loans to those stuck in sub-prime mortgages whose homes are worth less than they paid for them. Theory goes that this is another bubble waiting to burst.
Personally, I don't see how an aviation degree is going to give an individual an edge when it comes to the first aviation job in North America. Every small operators out there doesn't exactly hire co-pilots straight out of FTUs and aviation colleges. If they all expect newbies to ramp toward a co-pilot job, then what's the point of an aviation degree? Does the extra money spend on the degree cut down on the number of months on the ramp? If you look at what BCIT is offering, some of those courses are aimed at desk manager or management pilot roles. I suspect no one outside of the airline industry would even consider the diploma relevant. Like Mr. Ramsey said, you're digging a huge hole of debt for a very small initial earning compare to someone with an engineering / computing science / business degree. The other factor is the stability of these small operators which directly affect the stability and ability to service the student loan or debt.
I might humbly suggest that if you want to be a pilot,
get as many hours in your logbook and an ATPL as
frugally and as quickly as you can - WITHOUT GOING
INTO DEBT.
As has been pointed out many, many times here
before, one way to do that is to develop a trade or
skill and work at that, and get your aviation qualifications
and hours while you stand under the money tree.
That real-world private sector experience will
actually make you a better pilot. As is pointed
out here frequently, pilots that go from high school
to aviation college to their first job in aviation,
often have a really warped perception of reality - in
addition to a mountain of student debt.
I might also mention that many of the sexy new
"integrated" pilot training programs actually put
fewer hours in your logbook. Stay away from them.
You want more hours in your logbook, not fewer.
No one gives a sh1t that you have 1000 hours of
groundschool training in pneumatics, hydraulics,
aviation law, etc.
I might also mention that many of the sexy new
"integrated" pilot training programs actually put
fewer hours in your logbook. Stay away from them.
You want more hours in your logbook, not fewer.
No one gives a sh1t that you have 1000 hours of
groundschool training in pneumatics, hydraulics,
aviation law, etc.
And more importantly, no one gives a shit how much sim time you have either. I'll wager that there's a lot of wish-they-were-atpls out there who wish that money they paid on a simulator was money spent on single engine night PIC.
I know I have a bad attitude towards sims, but to
me, writing sim hours in your logbook is like writing
hours spent looking at internet pr0n in your logbook.
I would be at least a little bit embarrassed to do that.
Neither one counts towards your flight time.
Aviation Diploma programs are guilty of selling the program at whatever cost to fill their seats. This is called "advertising or marketing"...
Yes, I have seen big aviation diploma programs even in Alberta use the sim time to pad the logbook to the disadvantage of the student logbook. Of course, they claim its in the interest of safety but really - who pays for it??
Unfortunately, the PARENTS and even the applicant need to be buyer beware... there are better more cost effective options and more employable options.
If you're going to do a degree, then do it in finance. So that you will know how to manage your own.
Much of life is based on financial security, and the level to which you attain determines your quality of life. Conversely, the higher the level of debt, or credit, you are able to command, the poorer your quality of life.
Paying off a student loan is simple. Every penny you earn is already owned by the bank. So give it to them. If you already understand finance and debt, then you would have already applied to every government program available to reduce that debt. "Loan forgiveness", "Interest Relief" come to mind. Don't forget about "wellfare" for those months that you are traveling between jobs. Don't worry, you'll more than pay it back in taxes after you start to make ends meet. The taxman gets the first bite.
On the other hand, if you just bought the latest "IPhone", or the fiance a 10thou engagement ring, then your brainwashing is already too entrenched to do much about it. Just disregard the above.
Here's my 5cents on getting paid a high wage in any field, including aviation. There are 5 courses of action to reach that level,
1, BE FIRST
2, BE THE BEST
3, HAVE THE MOST EXPERIENCE
4, HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TOP DOG
5, CHEAT
Those that can employ all 5 in their chosen field command the highest compensations.
Mike Duffy comes to mind, #6 don't get caught with your wallet showing..
This is a copy of another posters response on the other thread.
Like so many others who have posted here, my feelings are biased by my experience as well. I may have a bit of a unique perspective, however, having taught at a college, while running a charter company, FTU next door. I'm just wondering if my thoughts seem way off base to others.
Here's my thinking: The biggest challenge this industry offers right now is getting the FIRST job. Once you're in, the bulk of your further education comes from the industry itself - on the job training (upgrades) if you will. I don't see a whole lot of operators hiring 200 hr CPL Multi IFR pilots directly into the right seat of a KA200, but I DO see the colleges continuing to sell their program based on that principle. I'm not questioning their ability to produce a high quality KA200 F.O., but I AM questioning the demand for that product. These days, unless your career is handed to you by your Daddy (more power to you if you can pull that one off ), we're all going to pay our dues in one form or another- Instructing, working a dock, F.O. on a bag run, etc.
Knowing what I do now, If I were doing it all over again, some of the questions I would be asking are: 1) What are the chances of getting a job where I train? 2) How quickly can I get out there and start paying my dues? 3) How much is it going to cost? 4) What do my instructors actually know about doing the job I'm being trained to do? 5) What IS the job I'm training to do, and how well prepared am I going to be to do that job?
The answer to question 1 is easy. There seems to be basically NO chance of getting hired right out of flight school by any College Program . That is not to say that every student that graduates from an FBO will get a job, but at least they have a CHANCE. While the connections made at a College are great, so too are the conversations you have and the connections you make on a daily basis with the itinerant pilots who hang out at the flight school FBO.
Question 2 depends more on the student at an FBO than anything else. I once took a student from 0 hours to CPL Multi IFR in 1 year (to the day, in fact ). If you're motivated (as most College Prospects are), and have the funds in place (ANY accredited school can get you student loan $$), there is no reason why it should take longer than 2 years to complete your licenses and ratings, and get out there. This puts you in the market at least a year ahead of the College Graduate. Remember also, as every Chief Pilot knows, Springtime is the season to have all your ducks in a row.
Question 3 is harder to answer. From my calculations, going the FBO route will leave you with between $10,000 and $20,000 hanging in your jeans. That's quite a bit of scratch for those first few years of paying your dues, or it goes quite a ways towards an independent degree or diploma. Is the extra amount spent in a College Program justified by the aid that education, or level of training, offers you either immediately, or eventually, in this industry. My answer is no, not today. Back when Commuter Airlines were hiring off the street (I've been told it actually did happen), the answer may have been different, but the times have changed now, and so has the entry level position.
Question 4 seems to be the really difficult sell for the FBOs, and in a way relates closely to question 3. The comment about QUALITY of instructors is a good one here. There is no question that on the whole the caliber of instructor at the college is higher (many College Programs use Class 4 instructors, so that alone cannot be an indicator, and many FBOs have career,experienced instructors on staff) - typically part 705 experienced. These professionals command a higher wage, therefore the cost of the College Program goes up. Is their level of knowledge and experience something that is going to make a difference when it comes to getting that first job? Is it going to make a difference 10 years down the line? I don't know. What I do know, is that an FBO school with a working charter side employs instructors who are also experienced in the working side of the industry. By no means am I trying to suggest that their level of knowledge is as deep as the College Professor, but they ARE doing, today, the job that a prospective CPL is training for. Can they teach a fresh CPL how to do their first flying job as well and as safely as a College Professor can? I think so. My point here, I guess, is that there are good instructors (and bad ones) everywhere if you look for them.
Question 5 has been answered throughout my ramblings here. The typical first flying job will be a 182 or 206 (maybe floats) flying day VFR charter, or as F/O on an Islander or Ho flying cargo (maybe pax), or ... Maybe part of the problem is that so few prospects want to even consider that these are likely to be their first jobs, that they can't see the reality of what they're getting trained to do. They see themselves as Airline Captains as soon as they graduate, so they pursue that type of training.
Hopefully I haven't pissed anyone off here...That wasn't my intention! For those who can afford the time and the $$, and who maybe need a little more discipline, there is no question that the College route is the way to go. I just feel that an FBO can produce AS GOOD A CANDIDATE FOR THE ENTRY LEVEL POSITIONS THAT EXIST NOW, for way less money. Simply trying to find out if there are others out there who are thinking the same way in terms of preparing yourself effectively and economically for the realities of this industry today.
1 guy has 3000hrs total time and a degree, another guy has 6000hrs and no degree.
Or
Both guys have the same qualifications except one guy has a degree, the other guy does not, but he's good friends with people high up in the company.
Guess who is getting picked?
I know guys and gals in every sector and every level of the industry. Somebhave degrees, some don't. Some are better at their craft than others. The possesion degree has nothing to do with it.
Colonel Sanders wrote:No one cares where you went to flight school.
No one cares where you went to college/university,
or what you took when you went there.
Isn't quite right, because:
Colonel Sanders wrote:only TWO things count:
1) your flight time 2) who you know
Of course, when some of those big evil courses are $25k start to finish and others are $100k, I would hope people can determine for themselves if the extra hundred grand for course B is really worth it.
I think you're saying that if you pay an extra $75k,
you get the privilege of spending three years on your
training instead of one, but you get to meet some
people.
Not the greatest business model for a puppy mill.
Amazing they stay in business.
With $75k, I could buy all the hookers and blow you
could imagine, for the CP. Take some pictures, and
you're set.
PS If you're sweating the diploma/degree checkbox
on the AC application, no worries. Athabasca U (and
others) offer correspondence courses. That and a little
"life credit" will get you a BA for the cows in HR. If you're
really hard up, shoot me a PM with your info and I'll send
you a Master's in Marine Biology from U of T (Tanzania).
Colonel Sanders wrote:I think you're saying that if you pay an extra $75k,
you get the privilege of spending three years on your
training instead of one, but you get to meet some
people.
Not even close to what I was saying, although I now realize my math in my last post didn't keep up with my edits.
What I was getting at was that there are puppy mills out there that other people pay for (fully subsidized by our tax dollars). Whether you can do it faster elsewhere is up for debate but I doubt you could do it any cheaper.
All Diploma Aviation Programs are greedy. All they are trying to do is "fill seats" or their program will be cancelled and they will lose government funding.
They will sell seats any way they can. It's called advertising:
They will tell potential students that there is a pilot shortage or that they can make $100,000 in the first year as a pilot or better yet, only pilots with diplomas get hired by the Airlines. The famous line - only students from their program get hired by the airlines not from flight schools.
falcon50fo wrote:All Diploma Aviation Programs are greedy. All they are trying to do is "fill seats" or their program will be cancelled and they will lose government funding.
They will sell seats any way they can. It's called advertising:
They will tell potential students that there is a pilot shortage or that they can make $100,000 in the first year as a pilot or better yet, only pilots with diplomas get hired by the Airlines. The famous line - only students from their program get hired by the airlines not from flight schools.
Anything to sell seats at their diploma programs.
I disagree. I took one of these programs.
The college provided ex military guys, guys from industry that have retired, former transport canada inspectors in combination with people who were expert teachers but had never left flight training. The result was a well balanced; incredible learning experience. I graduated in 2009 had a job on a king air 4 months later. Captain 8 months after that and on my first jet going all over the less than 2 years after getting my commercial.
I attribute that to several things. My work ethic. My ability to work with people and see it their way and thus help them get what they needed while doing the same for myself and my education. I had all the basics in place. A solid foundation that gave me the ability to learn. I had seen all sorts of things (CRM, SOPs, Jet Sims, winter ops, etc...) before I went up to get into the 703 goat rodeo. Armed with that education I excelled where others without it did not.
I also graduated debt free. Despite being a bit of an artard in highschool (60% average) I excelled in the college environment and received basically a full scholarship after the first 2 semesters. A commercial MIFR and a degree for 6K.
Am I special? Only to my mom.....Anyone can do it. Stop pissing and moaning about this that and every other bloody thing and go out and give everything you have with the biggest smile you can muster. You will get your just reward.
