Gogal accident report

[trey kule]

http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses_inflight.html

Click on courses to access both

There are two (2) courses. One for inflight, the other for ground ops...you have to go to the second screen if you only want the ground course

[pelmet]

Well, at the cost of thread drift, let me ask you.

1. What is the effect of windshield de ice on the rubber gaskets it runs over? What is its effect on the grease on the flap and aileron hinges? Not instantly, but from repeated applications. How does a fluid designed to be used on glass affect the plastic light covers? The boot finish?

There is a bit more to applying fluids then just removing the ice. I dont know the answer to the above questions, which is why I would not use it. I just might be making a wrong assumption.

I wouldn't be overly worried about the very long term effects of some windshield de-ice fluid on grease when the grease is replaced at inspections. Meanwhile the short term effect is a safe takeoff instead of a cancellation possibly for weeks on end at a remote location. Really...plastic light covers are a concern.

Let me ask you this...would you be more satisfied(ie. mind put at ease) if it was an officially approved anti-ice fluid?

[trey kule]

You know, we all like to point out how economics trumps safety in commercial operations.

What I see here is private operators doing exactly the same thing. There are proper applicators available for small aircraft. Built in heaters and operated by pressure. But they cost money. Proper anti ice and de ice fluids are available...but the cost of a liter is expensive.
Learning about them and how to properly apply them...an hour or two.......

But you see if you are not overly concerned about such things you can save a bunch of money by buying a little spray bottle and a gallon of windshield washer fluid. And it will get you home instead of being stuck somewhere for months. At least that is the assumption.

And just to be clear before the extreme examplists post about a little bit of frost, that is not what I am talking about. Or a dusting of dry snow .

So yep, Pelmet, Where fluid de icing is required, or desired, I want the proper fluid, properly diluted, and applied under pressure at the correct temperature, and I dont think the cost savings you suggest , are worth risking my life and the lives of those who fly with me . But hey, I worry about things that you obviously dont....kept me alive for over four decades of flying.

This pilot cut corners. Using windshield washer fluid is cutting corners as well. It is a matter of degree. You believe some corner cutting is obviously OK, and have convinced yourself that not getting stuck is so important that cutting corners is OK.

Surface contamination, as can be seen from this accident can be a fatal issue. Yet people will try to justify not dealing with it properly because they are not overly concerned about the fluid and application, and.....and,..I love this...they will get home instead of being stuck somewhere Isnt that called. ..get-home-itis.?

[pdw]

It can also often only make things worse if there's short supply in a small squirt can at these temperatures; in -5 to -8 with some wind, a fluid has to be a fairly high temp to make a dent.

Fond dreams of successful de-icing are where its hovering nicely right near the freezing point. Sure, then give it a little squirt and it works great. The pilot gives the go-ahead 'hop in we'll be off in a minute'. Much colder, and you're immediately stuck. Just not going to be as easy with a lingering catch grabbing from the night before, found after dawn at minus eight C overnight under the wing covers ... sort of the way it seems to be described (from this report).

If your fluid has 'low enough' freezing point and there's enough volume to do the job, is type of de-ice fluid you find around/near your airport as much of an issue ? If you run out of fluid and none is around, then a loss mitigation of finding a suitable fluid to use is the only option.

Here though, there's another hindrance not hard to miss, as there's not even a weather station within a hundred kilometers. Most places now are getting at least one in town AND at the airport because they're not expensive. How does the crew/pilot tune in early as to WX-info / conditions, what to expect for when arriving at the field ?

[fish4life]

Simple garden sprayer with an insulated blanket around it so you can plug it in and keep it warm. If it looks like that won't work then don't go that day if your going to get stuck or bring 2 or of them.

[1&2SpooledUp]

[quote="trey kule"]

It distresses me a bit to read pilots talking about a little spray bottle of some kind of liquid or another....pressure, dilution, and temperature of the fluids are important, as well as using the correct fluid. I sometimes wonder how pilots pass the surface contamination course successfully, and then head off with a bottle of car windshield deice.

When you are operating at airports with no services, you have to improvise (using good judgement of course). Type 1 fluid (cold) is useful for removing residual ice when carefully sprayed on the boots only. It helps soften the ice enough so it can be easily brushed or scraped off. I've once used isopropyl alcohol to remove a thin layer of frost on the wings. It was only -4 and the sun was just coming up so there was no risk of it refreezing. Again like I said, use good judgement.

It all comes back to company culture. If you are new to the industry and this is the way you are trained to operate, you will develop bad habits in a hurry. TC should be holding these companies responsible instead of calling every accident "pilot error". There are companies (you know who they are) still operating that have had multiple accidents due to the way they operate and train their crews, but TC still allows them to operate and put peoples lives at risk on a daily basis. WTF is wrong with this industry???

[Big Pistons Forever]

If the company can have their own fuel facility at the airport it would seem reasonable that they could stock proper aircraft deicing fluid and a portable sprayer.

The thing I find amazing is that the pilot was not IFR rated. If you are flying what a 300 mile route in the back of the beyond there is no way you can do this and be legally VFR and keep to a schedule, which is what this outfit had been doing for a long time.

Was this just a way to avoid training costs ?

[Chuck Finley]

Company culture or not, it's time pilots grow a mutual pair and tell those operators to f-off.

"But I only need to do this for a 1000 hrs or so" "i need the hours then i'm out"

It's beyond me why some pilots accept to do that. It's time you start taking responsibility for YOUR actions!!!

[pelmet]

What I see here is private operators doing exactly the same thing. There are proper applicators available for small aircraft. Built in heaters and operated by pressure. But they cost money. Proper anti ice and de ice fluids are available...but the cost of a liter is expensive.

So yep, Pelmet, Where fluid de icing is required, or desired, I want the proper fluid, properly diluted, and applied under pressure at the correct temperature, and I dont think the cost savings you suggest , are worth risking my life and the lives of those who fly with me . But hey, I worry about things that you obviously dont....kept me alive for over four decades of flying.

This pilot cut corners. Using windshield washer fluid is cutting corners as well. It is a matter of degree. You believe some corner cutting is obviously OK, and have convinced yourself that not getting stuck is so important that cutting corners is OK.

Surface contamination, as can be seen from this accident can be a fatal issue. Yet people will try to justify not dealing with it properly because they are not overly concerned about the fluid and application, and.....and,..I love this...they will get home instead of being stuck somewhere Isnt that called. ..get-home-itis.?

The problem you have is your mindset that obviously feels that because it is approved, it must be safe.

Somebody(private operator) does the safe thing and de-ices using a fluid that is perfectly legal(because it is not illegal) and we are being preached to about how it is not safe. First of all, where does it say that the private operator has to have some sort of type of applicator under a certain pressure at a specified temperature? Nowhere. No doubt the rule for the private operator is that the critical surfaces must not be contaminated which is exactly what Mr. small private operator is doing in many cases using certain fluids. Like anything, common sense is a requirement for flying and how you do certain things. The regs can't cover this.

Yet you are telling us how unsafe this person is by ridding their wings of contamination. It is quite apparent that if all the legal requirements required for commercial operators were met that Mr. private operator would now be a safe pilot in your mind. Why, because all the associated regulations are being followed.

Your case is backed up by the unanswered questions you asked earlier such as about the long term affect of these non-approved fluids on the flight controls and the grease on them after repeated applications among other things. Well, I can assure you that in your supposedly safe extremely regulated world that there have been numerous incidents of serious flight control difficulties due to anti-ice fluids . Yet these were approved fluids, so therefore, the implication from your posts is that they must be O.K.(ie safe) overall because...they are approved. And no doubt, these approved fluids were applied at the proper temperature under the proper pressure.

I list just a few incidents below:

Bae 146: http://www.flightsafety.org/asw/feb07/a ... 4.pdf?dl=1
Dash-8: http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cf ... 026146.pdf
Near stall 737: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... on-393527/


So if this known continuing flight control issue is in your mind acceptable for the so-called safe commercial operators, why are you so concerned anabout the non-approved private operators. Incidents have been happening for years ad continue you happen in the airline world(we just about had a 737 crash as seen in the link above) yet you condemn the private operator doing his best to be legal, as an unsafe operator by not complying with your supposedly safe world which it turns out is not. I am sure you would have followed the exact same procedures as the pilots in these incidents did thinking about how safe a pilot you are(and how unsafe I am) yet still would have had the same incidents.

Perhaps a different attitude changing from I am holier than thou and you are unsafe(with your statements about 40 years of operations and my non-consideration of safety) to an attitude of encouragement to continue safe practice and here are some lessons to be learned from my world(assuming you are aware of these lessons which appears to not be likely).

I think you make an big assumption that approved must be safe and not approved for commercial operators has a higher likelihood of being unsafe.

So yep, Pelmet, Where fluid de icing is required, or desired, I want the proper fluid, properly diluted, and applied under pressure at the correct temperature, and I dont think the cost savings you suggest , are worth risking my life and the lives of those who fly with me . But hey, I worry about things that you obviously dont....kept me alive for over four decades of flying.

This pilot cut corners. Using windshield washer fluid is cutting corners as well. It is a matter of degree. You believe some corner cutting is obviously OK, and have convinced yourself that not getting stuck is so important that cutting corners is OK.

Surface contamination, as can be seen from this accident can be a fatal issue. Yet people will try to justify not dealing with it properly because they are not overly concerned about the fluid and application, and.....and,..I love this...they will get home instead of being stuck somewhere Isnt that called. ..get-home-itis.?

Probably the first time a lot of us have been told about what unsafe pilots we are for taking the time to remove frozen contamination from the wings but hey, there is a first time for everything.

[pdw]

...being stuck somewhere Isnt that called. ..get-home-itis.?

Only if "being stuck" leads into it.

[trey kule]

Probably the first time a lot of us have been told about what unsafe pilots we are for taking the time to remove frozen contamination from the wings but hey, there is a first time for everything.

My hope is others can read, and better interpret what I actually posted. It seems you missed it, and from your previous posts, I have to wonder if it was not intentional. I never ever alluded to not removing surface contamination. What I was speaking to, firstly, was if you are going to apply fluids, use the proper ones, use them correctly, and apply them properly.
That is not holier than thou I dont think. It is smart and safe. Will other ways work? I really dont know. Apparently you do ((I am speaking of fluid applications only, not surface contamination general)

The second , and more important issue, was pilot attitude. I have no idea where your legal/not legal argument came from. It was a difference of known use of fluids and procedures vs. a pilot's substitution of those with their own fluids and procedures. Maybe they will work. Maybe not. Maybe a few times. I dont like maybes, when for sures are available. Did you notice that all these unknown procedures are cheaper? Co-incidence?

The pilot here seemed to have thought the contamination was not a problem.. You seem to think that using proper fluids and procedures are not necessary. I see a similarity in the attitude.

And again, to be clear, I am not suggesting anyone try to fly with any contamination.

In any event, it is thread drift, and I did not mean to sound holier than thou. It just upsets me when these types of accidents occur and then people post that it is OK to not do things the proven way.
I will reframe from posting on this thread again.

[J31]

If the company can have their own fuel facility at the airport it would seem reasonable that they could stock proper aircraft deicing fluid and a portable sprayer.

The thing I find amazing is that the pilot was not IFR rated. If you are flying what a 300 mile route in the back of the beyond there is no way you can do this and be legally VFR and keep to a schedule, which is what this outfit had been doing for a long time.

Was this just a way to avoid training costs ?

They had the Caravan for over a year along with 2 Navajo Chieftains....ALL VFR DAY only! In fact they have had one Chieftain since 2003 and I suspect they have never had IFR on their OC.

I'm sure it reduced their cost to stay VFR only operating certificate, but at the loss of operational flexibility to operate IFR.

I can't believe a mining company chartered them for crew changes to Winnipeg with a VFR airplane.

[flyinthebug]

If the company can have their own fuel facility at the airport it would seem reasonable that they could stock proper aircraft deicing fluid and a portable sprayer.

The thing I find amazing is that the pilot was not IFR rated. If you are flying what a 300 mile route in the back of the beyond there is no way you can do this and be legally VFR and keep to a schedule, which is what this outfit had been doing for a long time.

Was this just a way to avoid training costs ?

They had the Caravan for over a year along with 2 Navajo Chieftains....ALL VFR DAY only! In fact they have had one Chieftain since 2003 and I suspect they have never had IFR on their OC.

I'm sure it reduced their cost to stay VFR only operating certificate, but at the loss of operational flexibility to operate IFR.

I can't believe a mining company chartered them for crew changes to Winnipeg with a VFR airplane.

We inked a 3 yr contract with a large government agency and with all their audits and checks into our safety record, not once did the question come up..."Does your company hold a valid IFR approved AOC from TC"? A lot of these companies don't understand or even know what an AOC is or what variations of it there is. They wanted all the info on the pilots and if they were IFR rated...but never once asked if we had an IFR AOC. I know it sounds crazy, but my guess is no one ever asked in this instance either. With all the pilots IFR rated, they would likely assume that the company was legal to fly IFR.

My 1st PA31 PPC was VFR...to save on training costs? bingo!! Then TC walked in and saw 3-4 of us flying daily sked with VFR PPCs and said ok that's enough of that, and we all got IFR PPC`s immediately after his visit. We did hold an IFR AOC but the Ops Mgr/Owner saw a loophole with training us only to VFR PPC standards which saved him 2 hours of training minimum on the HOs per pilot. No sim rentals or purchase costs. All this adds to the bottom line at the end of the year....assuming you don't have an accident that costs you far more.

Tragic accident and very sad that icing is still claiming lives after all the training & education we receive on it.

Fly safe all.

[pelmet]

The second , and more important issue, was pilot attitude. I have no idea where your legal/not legal argument came from. It was a difference of known use of fluids and procedures vs. a pilot's substitution of those with their own fluids and procedures. Maybe they will work. Maybe not. Maybe a few times. I dont like maybes, when for sures are available. Did you notice that all these unknown procedures are cheaper? Co-incidence?

You state that small private guys using a non-approved de-icing fluid for frost removal without certain application pressures is an unsafe pilot because of the potential which unknown effects including the long term effect on the grease on the flight controls, yet are quite happy with your airline system that has had multiple near accidents due to controllability(as linked by myself earlier) and somehow feel that you are the safer pilot.

All I can say is you have a very strange attitude and a misunderstanding of the realities of the world. Ignorance truly is bliss. It must be safe if officially approved and not safe if not officially approved.

You would make a good bureaucracy.

[pdw]

Tragic accident and very sad that icing is still claiming lives after all the training & education we receive on it.

This is true. There is obviously more that needs to be done to eliminate this type of accident sequence.

[Chuck Finley]

No amount of training or education can fix stupid!

[pdw]

There was a number of reasons given for this accident. Which one are you referring to ?

[CpnCrunch]

There was a number of reasons given for this accident. Which one are you referring to ?

I would guess he was referring to all of them

[CpnCrunch]

My 1st PA31 PPC was VFR...to save on training costs? bingo!! Then TC walked in and saw 3-4 of us flying daily sked with VFR PPCs and said ok that's enough of that, and we all got IFR PPC`s immediately after his visit. We did hold an IFR AOC but the Ops Mgr/Owner saw a loophole with training us only to VFR PPC standards which saved him 2 hours of training minimum on the HOs per pilot. No sim rentals or purchase costs. All this adds to the bottom line at the end of the year....assuming you don't have an accident that costs you far more.

Doesn't really make financial sense, unless you're in some magical part of Canada that you can fly VFR every day in winter (or perhaps willfully breaking the CARs all the time). The whole point of IFR is to fly on more days when the weather is crappy, thus saving you money because you don't have to cancel as many flights.

[Big Pistons Forever]

My 1st PA31 PPC was VFR...to save on training costs? bingo!! Then TC walked in and saw 3-4 of us flying daily sked with VFR PPCs and said ok that's enough of that, and we all got IFR PPC`s immediately after his visit. We did hold an IFR AOC but the Ops Mgr/Owner saw a loophole with training us only to VFR PPC standards which saved him 2 hours of training minimum on the HOs per pilot. No sim rentals or purchase costs. All this adds to the bottom line at the end of the year....assuming you don't have an accident that costs you far more.

Doesn't really make financial sense, unless you're in some magical part of Canada that you can fly VFR every day in winter (or perhaps willfully breaking the CARs all the time). The whole point of IFR is to fly on more days when the weather is crappy, thus saving you money because you don't have to cancel as many flights.

It makes perfect sense. You go for the cheaper VFR PPC and then tell your guys to make sure they get the trips done, no excuses for turning the trip down accepted. The wink wink nudge nudge is the pilots fly in cloud, but hey it's uncontrolled so nobody is going to know and as a bonus you only have to carry VFR reserves so you can load more pop and chips and even better no need to waste money maintaining the aircrafts certification for IFR flight.

Now you can undercut the competition who follow the rules and common sense and scoop their business. What could possibly go wrong

[pdw]

I would guess he was referring to all of them

All lumped in under the one description; .. guess that happens quite a lot, and fairly easy to do.

Pick them apart though (the whole sequence of events), it's not so straightforward to jump to judgement; something that might have looked boneheaded enough to call it on the surface simply won't fit that label as readily when taking some extra time to scrutinize (some of these type of reports) in greater depth ... see what's really going on.

There are two IMO very similar Van takeoff-accident sequences listed in the reports; they are on Oct 2001 and Jan 2004. I would not label these anything but very very unfortunate after studying every detail.

[flyinthebug]

It makes perfect sense. You go for the cheaper VFR PPC and then tell your guys to make sure they get the trips done, no excuses for turning the trip down accepted. The wink wink nudge nudge is the pilots fly in cloud, but hey it's uncontrolled so nobody is going to know and as a bonus you only have to carry VFR reserves so you can load more pop and chips and even better no need to waste money maintaining the aircrafts certification for IFR flight.

Now you can undercut the competition who follow the rules and common sense and scoop their business. What could possibly go wrong

BPF is 100% correct. Well said and agreed.

[Clodhopper]

To all the newer CPL pilots out there, considering places like Gogal for their first job:

1 - When you're PIC the buck stops 100% with you. If you choose to fly overweight, fly with ice on the aircraft, fly VFR in IMC, its going to be 100% your a$$ if even the slightest thing goes wrong.

2 - The second even the slightest thing goes wrong and TC or god forbid the TSB gets involved, your company is going to pull out all the training manuals, records, signed ground school forms, and logs showing each and every minute spent covering topics such as: winter operations, de-/anti-icing, weight and balance, performance, systems knowledge. They will point to this massive stack of documents, and regardless of what pressure they put you under, say straight-faced "we trained him not to do this, see." The operator will, without a doubt, be the first one to throw you under the bus. Because UNLIKE YOU, they understand the legality of Point #1. Believe me, at those operators, nobody knows it better than management.

3 - Best advice ever given to me - Every decision you make in regards to flying, remember, in order: LIFE - LICENCE - JOB. Put your job #1, and you may lose the other two....

Another good quote, by a former DFO/Owner: "I don't care who you hire, or their experience, find someone. If there's an accident or we lose a plane, that's what insurance is for."

[pdw]

"I don't care who you hire, or their experience, find someone.

The sentiment that can be expressed out of frustration too when it's been difficult to "find someone", i.e. a suitable replacement for a pilot moving-on. The boss might not like the new hire but his plane can now fly if the "LICENSE" is valid, the business and the legal taken care of.

If there's an accident or we lose a plane, that's what insurance is for."

The Chief Pilot is having difficulty with selecting for the vacated position and is bogged down with the difficulty of having to choose from candidates that in his/her impression aren't perfect enough (some frustration there), so there's a pep talk from the boss to maybe get things moving. It's also true about the insurance. How long did it take to replace flight MH370 ?

[Chuck Finley]

pdw. Out of curiosity. Do you think it's okay to fly with a little ice? What about a little overweight? Will she fly just fine?