King Air 90 Training

[Eric Janson]

Good Morning,

We are looking at purchasing a King Air 90 or 100 for personal use (myself and business partners). Any ideas as to where we can go about purchasing training and cost of said training?

Make sure you look into Insurance requirements as well. Depending on the experience levels of the people involved there may be restrictions or you may not be able to get Insurance at all.

[cdnpilot77]

F.o.ever, check your PM's

[ahramin]

Shortest time four days

You submitted an application for an OC and TC got back in four days? It takes them two hours to decide where theyre going for lunch.

POC. Admittedly that one was a concatenation of fortuitous events including the auditor already in town to check an application submitted 2 weeks prior. Didn't seem surprising to me at the time.

Just checked the TC website and found this:

Issuance of a Temporary Private Operator Certificate
normally: 60 days max: 120 days
Amendment of a Temporary Private Operator Certificate
normally: 30 days max: 90 days

I've never experienced anything close to this long. I don't see how this could even be possible. 120 business days to approve a POC? That's 6 months. There's no way someone would leave their $30M plane sitting for 6 months waiting for paperwork. A couple times I've had new owners put their aircraft on my POC for a month while waiting for their POC but even that dodge wouldn't work if the above numbers are correct as even an amendment would take a biblical amount of time.

Has anyone actually heard of someone having to wait more than a month for a temporary POC?

[single_swine_herder]

I've been told by my POI those wait times are based upon the worst possible delay in the worst office due to lack of people to process work during the worst time of the year .... meaning the downtown Toronto Office when staff are generally taking their vacation time.

My experience is nowhere near those cautioned Level Of Service response times..... but then, I haven't had anything to do with the YYZ office in many decades.

[f.o.ever]

Is there any way around this POC issue?

Meaning that, I don't see much value in appointing a CP, Ops Mgr, Dir of Flt Ops, and put together all sorts of training syllabi, so that I can fly myself and my partners to our various business meetings and the odd weekender with our families

[Colonel Sanders]

The rules are constantly changing for
CAR 604 POC (and are due to change
again any day now) but I think as of
right now, you only need a POC for
a jet, or a large airplane (over 12.5)

http://gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2013/2013 ... .html#d101

604.03 No person shall, without a temporary private operator certificate issued under section 604.05, operate any of the following Canadian aircraft for the purpose of transporting passengers or goods:
(a) a turbo-jet aeroplane; or
(b) a large aeroplane

I'm sure I'm wrong - TC makes this stuff
as difficult as possible to understand - but
I think you're good to fly a King Air under
12.5 without a POC - right now.

The rules may change in a few days, though.

Note for the sharp-eyed: CAR 604.03(a)
says "turbo-jet" NOT "turbo-fan". Apparently
turbo-fan aircraft under 12.5 don't require
a POC - today (and nor should they).

[ahramin]

I don't see much value in appointing a CP, Ops Mgr, Dir of Flt Ops, and put together all sorts of training syllabi

You've got that right.

As stated, at the moment there is no need for a POC for a BE90, but that may change this month. The good news is once these rules get published they should be fairly static for a while, certainly when it comes to whom they apply to.

[Colonel Sanders]

I know Canadians love big government and
high taxes, but has anyone ever bothered to
do a cost/benefit analysis on the POC? You
know, compared the accident rate of King Airs
in Canada vs King Airs in the USA (no POC,
just part 91).

I presume Canada should have a lower accident
rate with King Airs because we have so much
more paperwork associated with them, and
everyone knows that the amount of paperwork
and bureaucratic overhead directly improves safety.
But at what cost?

[KAG]

Check out this website if your in the market to buy a used gov machine http://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav
I've seen some of TC BE90 on there.

[ahramin]

New POC rules:

Prohibition
604.03 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall operate any of the following Canadian
aircraft for the purpose of transporting passengers or goods unless the person is the holder of a
private operator registration document:
(a) a large aeroplane;
(b) a turbo-jet-powered aeroplane; or
(c) a turbine-powered pressurized aeroplane certificated for more than six passenger seats.

I notice it says certificated for more than six passenger seats, not registered.

[Aeroplane17]

New POC rules:

Prohibition
604.03 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall operate any of the following Canadian
aircraft for the purpose of transporting passengers or goods unless the person is the holder of a
private operator registration document:
(a) a large aeroplane;
(b) a turbo-jet-powered aeroplane; or
(c) a turbine-powered pressurized aeroplane certificated for more than six passenger seats.

I notice it says certificated for more than six passenger seats, not registered.

So is this law now? How do we know?

What a joke this is. Everyone just sit back and take it. Some owners might just say screw it after thousands of dollars and a grounded aircraft for who knows how long, While we get this paper work in order for a " one man show" type operation. Bigger govt...gotta love it.

[Colonel Sanders]

(c) a turbine-powered pressurized aeroplane certificated for more than six passenger seats.

This is in line with what I was previously
told - TC is pushing people to single turbines
(instead of twin turbines) to avoid the POC
monster.

Nice reduction in the level of safety, to keep
our big government happy.

[ahramin]

Aeroplane17, in my post there is an attachment of the new rules which will be published in the next Gazette. If you want to be sure I'm not winding you up you can get a copy of same from your local TC office. It's law. Current POC holders will have 2 years to comply with the new requirements, non-POC holders are grounded.

I know the FAA is big on cost benefit analysis, a pity TC has not applied it to this gong show.