Value of instructing time?

[timel]

Back to my previous post... the question is will going the instructor way give you a leg up in the industry... I am simply saying that with the changes of how co-pilot time is counted and if your plan your first 4 years right, the guy doing ramp while studying will probably be a head of a guy going the instructor route.

It is actually a good question to think of.
The co-pilot time is going to change it all. I think rampies is more a western culture, in Quebec it is pretty inexistent, compagnies do hire mainly instructors or pilots with aerial work time / air taxi. Maybe it will change with the new atpl rules.

If you get an instructor job that gives you 300-500 hours a year. In 3 years you will have 900-1500 accumulated but not insurances of having a job after that. If you work as a rampy you work like two years max at the ramp and after three you'll probably be like 700 hours, but you will be setted to go all the way up. Instructor is unstable wages and can be poverty while being a rampy you will probably earn your life better than a copilot.

It is always a guess... But good point :-p

[Krimson]

Just try to find one who'll hire somebody without a MEIFR ticket, already in their pocket! I defy to to name just ONE.

There are actually a lot of them in Alberta.
While I do not agree with a ramp job to start your flying career, it is the way of the industry at this point. You will be farther ahead than instructors once you start flying. I know many instructors who would kill to sit right seat in a navajo, just to start "real flying". I'm not saying instructing isn't real flying; we need quality instructors and especially career instructors (good job and thanks for stepping up and giving us all hope for the future). It's the 200hr instructors who are only there to log hours and move on, it's the drain on the industry. As much as I hate the ramp-to-pilot scheme which gets abused, I think 200hr "pilots" teaching students is even stupider. How can you teach if you don't know how it works yourself? If you are just there for your own personal gain, every flight becomes the same...follow the curriculum and don't do a thing extra.

Once the instructor starts at your company, you will likely be in the same place, so at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. Take what opportunity you are given and can live with. Whatever your first job is, flying is likely to be a secondary task to a primary purpose, just be sure to remember why you got hired and do your job.

[powerbrian]

At the end of the day, if you read my first post you will be way further ahead in the industry as a whole doing the ramp thing....

Two years of instructing and you have 1000-1200 PIC
Two years on the ramp and you have......forklift driving skills, and NO current flight skills. Just then 200 hours you went in with.
Yup, you are on drugs.
Illya

Common Illya.... I finished my flight training 2 years ago. I went up north and my classmate stayed home to instruct. I was 4 months on the ground and i now have 1000 tt 800 turbine. My classmate who stayed back has 600 tt and is looking to apply to my current company. It all depends

[DanWEC]

I think it will swing the ultimate time building progression into the favour of ramping first, but all I know is that given the choice between happily flying an airplane for 2 years, or being exploited in a ground position, in order to possibly get "ahead" by a year, a few years down the road, I know which one I'd choose, all day, every day... And it's the choice I've already made!

[Illya Kuryakin]

You spent 40K on your licence. It does not have "slave" or "forklift operator" on it. It's a Commercial Pilot Licence. A monkey can load an airplane. It seems obvious to me, almost daily, that some companies let monkeys fly their airplanes as well.
Illya

[Krimson]

Same with legal apprentices making coffee all day. I don't think the proper brew ratio is included on the bar exam.

[Jack In The Box]

I disagree that "pic is pic." wacko hit the nail on the head, there is real credit given, in most circumstances, to the type of flying being done.

That said, I instructing time valuable? Hell Ya! Does it make you more marketable as a pilot (vs someone without the experience) duh! But if the choice is between two equal candidates, one with half instructing time, the other with straight multi turbine or the like... I'm going with option 2

YMMV

[Illya Kuryakin]

Same with legal apprentices making coffee all day. I don't think the proper brew ratio is included on the bar exam.

Sure Putting on a pot of coffee is the same as spending two years letting your already limited skills deteriorate doing a job that has nothing to do with what you were trained to do. Yup. On what planet?
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

I disagree that "pic is pic." wacko hit the nail on the head, there is real credit given, in most circumstances, to the type of flying being done.

That said, I instructing time valuable? Hell Ya! Does it make you more marketable as a pilot (vs someone without the experience) duh! But if the choice is between two equal candidates, one with half instructing time, the other with straight multi turbine or the like... I'm going with option 2

YMMV

Is 1500 hours of multi-turbine PIC worth more than 1500 PIC as an instructor? No shit Sherlock! But is 1500 hours instructing worth more than two years loading airplanes? No shit Sherlock!
Problem is, some of you actually think loading airplanes is worth more than PIC, because it's only PIC in a 150! Hey, I've flown a 150 from Toronto to Nassau, Freeport, Spanish Wells and back. Learned FAR more than I would have loading Metros in YWG!
Illya

[powerbrian]

There are lots of dispatch positions. In my case I dispatched for 3-6 months. I learned the ins and outs of our routes/schedules etc. I was then into an airplane. It can take you longer just to get your instructor rating let alone actually fly .

[airspeed250]

Is 1500 hours of multi-turbine PIC worth more than 1500 PIC as an instructor? No shit Sherlock! But is 1500 hours instructing worth more than two years loading airplanes? No shit Sherlock!
Problem is, some of you actually think loading airplanes is worth more than PIC, because it's only PIC in a 150! Hey, I've flown a 150 from Toronto to Nassau, Freeport, Spanish Wells and back. Learned FAR more than I would have loading Metros in YWG!
Illya

Illya,

Do not deny the experience argument you are putting forward. The issue is that companies are moving to a trend of hiring their FO's internally. I just had this conversation with an instructor a couple weeks ago.... he's stuck. He told me point blank... do not instruct. Go work ramp and get your license and ratings... live in a normal city making a decent wage, and already have seniority with the company when you start flying. Where I live, guys on the ramp are making $20/hr and can get lots of overtime.

I've seen guys at the FTU go work ramp or flight coordination while they do their CPL, and two years later are right seat on a King Air. Their instructor is still instructing, sending out resumes to firms up north because they don't have the experience to go direct entry captain down south where their student is FO now. Their former student was getting paid more than an instructor, more than an FO, working ramp or dispatch, and not living in the middle of nowhere. It's not too hard to find a 40k/year+ office job with some of the 704/705 companies, or more if you have previous experience (ie accounting). My buddy is doing just that, making a very good salary, and now has great office experience to fall back on should he lose his medical. He put in two years, and will be right seat shortly. He didn't have to move north, and on the weekends he found a side job flying a Cessna to build some PIC. There are pro's and con's, but after seeing instructors at my FTU having troubles moving out of instructing, while former students are on a ME turbine, with seniority, then it seems to not be such a bad start. The major risk is the economy slows down and you get stuck waiting for years, but if that is the case, those instructors will struggle to find work as well and not have their foot in the door, unlike the ramp/dispatch person.

[Oxi]

I worked previous as an instructor and did just over 800 hours in a year, working long hours and weeks. I sacrificed some social and family time but I was out of instructing just over a year and half and gave everything I could to my students. During that time I didn't just stick around the training area but made use of different aircraft in the fleet, taught and flew actual MEIFR, flew across the states/provinces, while doing ground schools when things got slow. My students learned a lot from flying into grass strips to any possible stall configuration they could think of. During my venture into the 704 world it helped me get the job by not just being a typical instructor so to speak... as well as having my hours, it is checks in a box for an upgrade in a years time to captain.

Talking to previous co workers and friends I find a trend that many instructors don't help themselves. They expect having 1000 hours or 1500 etc they should fit right into a turboprop or small jet position because they have given up so many long hours, poor pay and valuable time. If they put more concentration into writing their ATPL exams, networking, being a better pilot and seeking the opportunities that can be few and far between it goes a long way. In short they become comfortable.


oxi

[trey kule]

one with half instructing time, the other with straight multi turbine or the like... I'm going with option 2

This got me to thinking. On one hand it seems the thinking behind this is that time is the only thing that is important.
A very popular misconception.

On the other hand, there is a group who claims time on the ramp is important so the company can get to know you, or something like that.

Being on the other side of the desk so to speak, I can tell you that attitude, maturity, and previous work experience in an non aviation job are just as important as log book hours. And it might interst some of you to know how we assess attitdue..Take for example the post....I have over 1000tt and 800 turbine... The question that pops to mind is how much of that is PIC...And yes, even with the loosening of time for higher licenses, PIC counts. If the 800Turbine time , for example is all right seat, it gives us a surprising good indication of the pilots attitude..And that is just an opinion so no need to argue over it..It works for us.

The one off examples of this or that comparison are also just that, for the most part..One off. Not the rule. The exception.

Personally, if someone has a good instructors training record, and is not job hopping weekly, I look at them very favourably, other things considered. The jump in the right seat out of flight school, not so much. And it does not matter if FO time counts 1.1 or you have 8000 hours of turbine time...in the right seat.

There is just to much focus on hours in the logbook by the I want to get hired crowd. The reality is if you meet the insurance or other requirements for time, you get looked at..After that it is all about you. not whether you time was in a C 150 or not...

As to the poster who claimed that it was OK to state 40 circuits a day, because, IIRC, it is a common thing to say, it is not. The only people who make this kind of ignorant comment are those who want to put others down.

On a personal note. It has been decades upon decades since my instructor rating lapsed. And my hope is to renew it again after I retire. I think it is a noble calling, and does not desrve that kind of comment. ..which is maybe why I find your comment so offensive.


My rant for the day.

[dazednconfused]

Take for example the post....I have over 1000tt and 800 turbine... The question that pops to mind is how much of that is PIC...And yes, even with the loosening of time for higher licenses, PIC counts. If the 800Turbine time , for example is all right seat, it gives us a surprising good indication of the pilots attitude..And that is just an opinion so no need to argue over it..It works for us.

trey kule,

Sorry, what does this tell you of the pilots attitude? I'm simply curious. I figured 1000 tt/800 ME turbine right seat would be favourably viewed upon. To me it says their employer was willing to trust them, after knowing them for many months or years, with ~200 hours going into significantly more complex aircraft.

It sounds like an ideal combination is ramp or dispatch, M-F, and instruct/tow banners/para-drop/fly your own plane on the weekends to build PIC.

[Krashman]

Timeline,

Finished CPL/MIFR/Instructor
Instructed 1 year, 900TT
Flew 206 charter 1.5 years 1500TT
Flew Navajo SPIC, B200 FO 1.5 years 2200TT
B200 Capt 1.5 years 3000TT
Airline.... not sure when I last wrote in my logbook ????TT

Just have fun guys, I enjoyed 95% of my days flying, including instructing.

As mentioned on this thread, attitude is the most important. I never really cared about what kind of time you had unless I needed to hire a King Air capt. If I could see you would show up to work on time, fit for duty and not complain the whole day about aviation, you would be fine working for most companies.

[loopa]

If I could see you would show up to work on time, fit for duty and not complain the whole day about aviation, you would be fine working for most companies.

Surprisingly this seems to be an issue for a lot of people!

Great post Krashman.

[FatCowCanFly]

I would say 1000 to 1500 hours and level it into class 2. Because it is to show you are not a job hopping Instructor and have devotion to instruct, not just logging hours.

I am an Instructor at this moment with 400TT. I just wanna say being a good instructor is not easy and its very different compare to someone who work on ramp and get a right seat on MEIFR.

Most of us in this forum went though flight training without much of problem because we are devoted to aviation and actually study for it. A lot of students I have here always try to kill me. With just 150 instructing time. I already have 3 students who tried to kill me with stall 300ft on final, spiral dive 500ft above ground from base to final AND refuse to give command of the airplane to me, also 0 flaps to full flap exceeding vfe while 150 feet above and half way down on runway attempting to land with 1500ft remaining. BTW they are handed off to me from other instructors who left the company. Not someone i train from no experience at all.

You may have logged more PIC hour than me. But my instructor PIC hours are actual PIC that i EARN from recovering from the mistake from students.

FatCowCanFly