Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

[GyvAir]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-a ... -1.2719838

A Ukrainian security spokesman said Monday that data from the recovered flight recorders shows Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 crashed due to a massive, explosive loss of pressure after being punctured multiple times by shrapnel. Andrei Lysenko said the plane suffered "massive explosive decompression" after it was hit by fragments he said came from a missile.

I didn't know FDRs had shrapnel detection capability.

[Mig29]

Good observation my friend, too bad many people don't see the truth....We are being served the news and "facts" based on b.s.

[Deadwood]

Good observation my friend, too bad many people don't see the truth....We are being served the news and "facts" based on b.s.

FDRs track systems operational status. There's a very distinct failure pattern that can be traced by seeing which systems failed (location) and when (timeframe). A missile/shrapnel hit would have areas of intense failure scattering out to areas with less systems failures from the epicenter of the blast/hit.

If you want to wear a tinfoil hat, more power to you.

To me the facts are pretty clear:
The rebels had access to soviet era BUK systems, easily capable of shooting down airliners at cruise.
The rebels tweeted about shooting down a Ukrainian transport around the time the airliner was shot down.
The rebels deleted the tweets when they realized they'd murdered hundreds of innocent civilians.

http://news.yahoo.com/rebel-suggests-in ... 50060.html

[Mig29]

Deadwood,

I am not an expert for FDRs but I would not base my assumption on Yahoo or articles that say "claimed but not verified" ...We had plant wrong intel in the past on which major wars were waged. There is a great chance that unfortunately this 777 was shot down rather then had major mechanical/structural failure. That is very sad, and it should have never happened...regardless who actually did it.

I would wait for the aviation experts to release their report, but I doubt they will release the full truth. Too much at stake for everyone involved.

[Brock Landers]

Rebels tweeting makes me lol

[boeingboy]

There is a great chance that unfortunately this 777 was shot down rather then had major mechanical/structural failure......I would wait for the aviation experts to release their report, but I doubt they will release the full truth. Too much at stake for everyone involved.

Hmmm.............I think it's 100% chance it was shot down - don't you?

[boeingboy]

One more - just to be sure.....

[Deadwood]

We had plant wrong intel in the past on which major wars were waged

Planting intel and false flags is different from a war crime. The USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian airliner, but at least the US admitted they did it, while not admitting legal responsibility, unlike the russian supported rebels in this case, who are desperately backpedaling so as not to lose support (War crimes and murdering a plane full of civilians is bad PR when you are trying to win hearts and minds)

@Boeing boy: Doesn't look like a shoot down at all. Those are just speed holes and birdstrikes...

[Mig29]

Deadwood,

do I need to repeat my quote again?? I said "There is a great chance that unfortunately this 777 was shot down ..."

But what you are stating is that it was the rebels who did it...based on some yahoo tweets or tape recording. All I'm saying is lets wait and see who did it. I'm not going to point fingers at anyone yet, because just like you, I wasn't there and I'm pretty sure you were not either.

Remember during the Kiev protest/anarchy/riots in early spring?? Remember when bunch of "protesters" were shoot by a sniper as some unidentified security forces were advancing towards them near some gov't building? I remember how the west accused the former Ukrainian regime of using lethal force on its own people....few days later, it turns out it was an inside job and the anti-gov't people shot their own.

Lets wait and see who did shoot this 777...that's all I'm saying....Those pics don't mean much to me in determining who did it! But they could in fact be useful for experts to figure out if it was a missile hit or gun shots from a fighter jet....because there were reports that fighter jet(s) was(were) in very close proximity of the MH17. Tin foil hat you say, maybe? But at least look at it from both directions....you are a pilot I assume? Don't base conclusions just on one story

Here is one side of it:
http://www.storyleak.com/evidence-conc ... operation/

[Mig29]

here's another article by a Lufthansa pilot....his theory is just that, a theory but worth reading...

http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissensc ... sian-mh17/

WHY is the cockpit area so heavily shredded with bullet holes, and no other parts of the fuselage show the same marks?? The bullet holes in fact show that they existed the cockpit outwards on the Capt's side...which mean that it was probably shot from the other side. Again, this goes with the theory that fighter jet(s) were in the vicinity of MH17
http://my.firedoglake.com/operationmind ... -gun-fire/





If you don't feel like reading the whole article, I highly suggest you watch the clip from CBC's interview with one of Canadian int'l observer who was there....fast forward to 6:00min and listen.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNMj-M-GDl0#t=441



Could it be that it was "mistaken" from Russian president's jet that flew over almost the same path as did MH17 shortly before?




http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

Maybe....maybe not.

[bizjets101]

http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/

[FICU]

WHY is the cockpit area so heavily shredded with bullet holes, and no other parts of the fuselage show the same marks?? The bullet holes in fact show that they existed the cockpit outwards on the Capt's side...which mean that it was probably shot from the other side. Again, this goes with the theory that fighter jet(s) were in the vicinity of MH17

Not bullet but sharpnel holes because the SA-11 uses a lead pursuit trajectory and explodes ahead of the jet so the 777 flew into a cloud of sharpnel.

They have only talked about a Su-25 Frogfoot in the area as the "fighter" and the Su-25 is a fat, non-after burning heavily armoured ground attack jet used in the same capacity as the US A-10. It would barely get to FL330 with any kind of payload. Also, it has a twin barrelled 30mm tank busting cannon as it's only gun, like the A-10, and those rounds would make much bigger holes than what you see in the shredded cockpit images.

For the "machine gun" reference... No modern war plane carries machine guns... only cannon and Russian made jets would likely have a 23mm as the smallest.

A SAM took the 777 down. The only question is was the Russian military involved in helping the operators use it.

[Mig29]

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/08/07 ... s-experts/

I guess we'll have to wait and see the results of FDR/CVR analysis

[Diadem]

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/08/07 ... s-experts/

I guess we'll have to wait and see the results of FDR/CVR analysis

If ever there was a reliable media outlet, it's the Iranian government's official news outlet, quoting "some US intelligence sources" no less.

[floydfrank]

Just came across this: http://themillenniumreport.com/2014/08/ ... pert-says/

I am not implying by posting this, the nationality of the aircraft that destroyed MH17. This link does not state where the author gets his proof that the aircraft was Polish, it could have been a Russian Mig for all I know.
It has appeared for a time now, that the damage to MH17 is inconsistent with what a BUK sam would do. For that matter, not consistent with what an air fired missile would do either..

[FICU]

I like this quote:

"Thus, if such a large aircraft like Boeing-777 of Malaysia Airlines had been hit by surface-to-air missile, the crew would have been able to warn traffic control services of the situation on board."

Did this "expert" not see the cockpit photos ripped apart by shrapnel? What a joke. This expert doesn't seem to know about intercept trajectories of a large radar guided SAM.

And another:

"These shells go through targets, leaving traces of perfectly circular shape."

Like the perfectly circular shaped holes in the cockpit? Fragments of various sizes shredded the cockpit.

Next expert...

[floydfrank]

Why was there no fire if a shrapnel spewing missile blew up a 100 metres from a fuel laden, heavy aircraft? I'm thinking along the lines of TWA 800, which blew up in massive fireball over a 5 volt sending wire that arced in proximity to jet fuel. At least, that is what the "experts" say happened. So, if jet fuel is so highly explosive, why did MH17 not blow up like a screaming pin wheel? That's all I ask, well, that and why was it diverted over Donbass, but that is a question for another time..

[Diadem]

Why was there no fire if a shrapnel spewing missile blew up a 100 metres from a fuel laden, heavy aircraft? I'm thinking along the lines of TWA 800, which blew up in massive fireball over a 5 volt sending wire that arced in proximity to jet fuel. At least, that is what the "experts" say happened. So, if jet fuel is so highly explosive, why did MH17 not blow up like a screaming pin wheel? That's all I ask, well, that and why was it diverted over Donbass, but that is a question for another time..

Fire requires not only fuel and heat, but oxygen. If you put a spark (or a hot projectile, for that matter) in the middle of a fuel tank, it won't burn without the proper fuel-air mixture. TWA 800 exploded because of fuel vapours in a partially-empty tank being ignited. After MH17 crashed and the fuel spilled out, giving it access to oxygen, it burned for hours.

[floydfrank]

Does anyone recall when the Concorde fuel tanks apparently blew up when hit by shrapnel? Some may argue that the leaking fuel entered engine intakes and ignited, but I am not aware of a conclusion on that. The physical evidence from MH17 shows blatant strafe marks on one or both wing surfaces, this is not consistent with damage from a missile.

[GyvAir]

Well, floydfrank, with solid science, methodology and facts like that so incontrovertibly backing up your argument..

[floydfrank]

The next inquiry will have to be into MH17 being over the area of Donbass, and the fact that the ATC tapes of the event have been withheld. If Ukraine is going to assert that Russia was involved and would presumably wish to provide the proof, why would they not release these tapes after over a month?

[7ECA]

Come on people, give your heads a shake.

As was noted, the SA-11 SAMs use a lead pursuit trajectory, which means that the missile ends up exploding ahead of the target, which then flies through a cloud of shrapnel. This then will cause significant damage to the aircraft. In the case of MH-17, you are looking at a pressurized aircraft, that had a rather shocking amount of damage done to the cockpit, and forward fuselage, all of which would have punctured the pressure vessel, causing an explosive decompression.

As for not releasing the tapes, or why the crew didn't radio in a mayday, odds are they didn't even know what hit them, or at least one can hope they didn't know...

[Mig29]

right, you all accuse floydfrank for being an "expert" but you all give your own expert opinions on how fuel burns and how SAM missiles work....bacause just like you all, WE were all there that day? right? bs.

I ask you all a legit question, why haven't the Dutch released the tapes since they said a preliminary report will be issued by 25th of last month?? Why so much silence, other then few news bits on how few more remains of the victims have been flown to their respective countries....why is the West still not blaming Russia for this, they all went silent. Where are US radar/satellite images claiming Russia's involvement...all this suddenly went silent in the last few weeks....I guess news needs to be interesting to the public, and this stuff apparently isn't anymore.

As for the Iranian source, here's one, from our own backyard....but again, who care now, right?

"Facts withheld regarding the MH17 Malaysian airlines crash. Dutch Government Refuses to Release Black Box Recordings
By Sara Flounders
Global Research, August 30, 2014
workers.org
Region: Russia and FSU
Malaysia-MH17

Notable for its absence in the corporate media is any mention of the July 17 downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 over Ukrainian territory, killing all 298 people on board.

At that time, and without any evidence, all U.S. and NATO officials immediately blamed Russia and the Ukrainian rebels in eastern Ukraine for shooting down the Boeing 777. They used this charge to whip the European Union into imposing sanctions on the Russian economy.

On Aug. 11, the Dutch Safety Board announced that a preliminary report would be published in a week with the first factual finding of the ongoing investigation into the flight that departed from Amsterdam and crashed in Ukraine. The Netherlands was given custody of the flight data recorder, or black box recordings, from the crash.

As of Aug. 25, the Dutch government has refused to release the recordings. (RIA Novosti, Aug. 25) This, of course, immediately raises suspicions that the Kiev junta forces were responsible for the crash.

Questions had already been raised of why the Kiev forces would have placed numerous BUK anti-aircraft batteries in the area when the rebels have no planes, why the Malaysian flight was diverted hundreds of miles by Kiev ground control over the battle zone, and why Kiev air traffic control data and radar data of the flight have still not been made ­public.

Did the Ukrainian military shoot down the passenger plane simply to create a provocation that could be turned against the rebels in east Ukraine and Russia?

Demands for an independent inquiry into the crash are growing. One petition raises the danger of the U.S. expansion of NATO and military encirclement of Russia and posed the possibility that Flight MH17’s crash resulted from an attempt to assassinate Russian President Vladimir Putin, whose aircraft was returning from South America the same day.

The media’s silence now and the absence of U.S. officials providing any concrete evidence in over a month from their own spy satellites or radar add fuel to the growing questions and deep suspicions of the Kiev coup regime’s role in the crash and the growing danger of U.S./NATO military expansion."

[bumffs]

Why is nobody upset about the use of artillery on civilians by the Ukrainian Military ?

If the Ukrainians will use artillery on their own civilians ,there is no doubt in my mind they would shoot down a civilian aircraft on purpose.

Show the Radar tapes or end the sanctions against Russia.
There is no doubt that if those tapes showed evidence against Russia they would have been made public by now.

Time to end the sanctions.

[7ECA]

I'd say that at the moment, the world is a bit more concerned about the overt Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine, rather than the investigation of the shoot down of an airliner. Priorities change, and the media will focus on the more interesting story to try and get better ratings.

Seems to be a pretty typical investigation to me, lots of speculation when the incident first occurred, some statement of facts released early on, and then silence. Odds are, there won't be a whole lot released until some sort of a formal report is released, if one ever is. Lets remember that the plane was shot down over/in a conflict zone, the debris field was never secured, parts were moved/disturbed, evidence was removed, looting occurred, etc. Even in the best case scenario for investigating an accident, it can take over a year to release a report.

As for the allegation that the aircraft was diverted purposely over the Donetsk Region, that is the first I have heard any such rumour. And as a matter of fact, that can be quickly dispelled, seeing as how most, if not all of the international routes from Europe to Asia, have aircraft in that area.