Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
AuxBatOn wrote:You can cancel and join because you are compatible to the traffic in the circuit and a circling approach is not dangerous for your type.
I can't think of any reason why people would not have at least a handheld with them.
REALLY??????7ECA wrote:The idea that there is some sort of a compatibility issue with handheld radios and "certain aircraft" is pure BS.
$200 gets you an ICOM transceiver. Sure it will not have the same kind of broadcasting range as a panel mounted unit with a larger transmitter and better antenna, but it will sure as hell get the job done - at the very least allowing you to broadcast a good five miles or more, and will receive extremely well.
It doesn't prevent from briging them, even if it's just to listen to people. They even sell earbuds that connect to the radios, so the require 2 hand bullshit excuse doesn't work.fleet16b wrote:REALLY??????7ECA wrote:The idea that there is some sort of a compatibility issue with handheld radios and "certain aircraft" is pure BS.
$200 gets you an ICOM transceiver. Sure it will not have the same kind of broadcasting range as a panel mounted unit with a larger transmitter and better antenna, but it will sure as hell get the job done - at the very least allowing you to broadcast a good five miles or more, and will receive extremely well.
Maybe in you limited aviation experience
Some Classic, Vintage and Antique aircraft for example have open ignition and that interferes greatly with radios.
Also some ultralights , parasails etc also cannot use them
as they require two hands at all times to fly them
When you deal with TC, get the response in writing with the inspectors name. And until it is in writing, what they say doesn't amount to jack squat. You can ask 4 different inspectors and get 5 different opinions (you're halfway there; only 2 more to go!) And remember that there are very few TC inspectors left that have a real interest in aviation like in the good 'ole days. Most are only interested in keeping off the radar and getting their pension. They would rather no airplanes left the ground as that would give them less work and less risk to something preventing them from collecting that pension. The longer they stay out of the industry and in their office, the more off the wall things they come up with, including no IFR in an ATF. A bit cynical, maybe, or I've just had bad luck seeing some of these things first hand.fleet16b wrote:My point was that IFR approaches at an ATF are a questionable at best.
Not to mention apparently not allowed at an ATF according to TC
However, I am beginning to question that TC statement after listening to some of the IFR people here and plan to question TC further.
Listen to them how ? all you can hear is interferenceAuxBatOn wrote:fleet16b wrote:REALLY??????7ECA wrote:The idea that there is some sort of a compatibility issue with handheld radios and "certain aircraft" is pure BS.
$200 gets you an ICOM transceiver. Sure it will not have the same kind of broadcasting range as a panel mounted unit with a larger transmitter and better antenna, but it will sure as hell get the job done - at the very least allowing you to broadcast a good five miles or more, and will receive extremely well.
Maybe in you limited aviation experience
Some Classic, Vintage and Antique aircraft for example have open ignition and that interferes greatly with radios.
Also some ultralights , parasails etc also cannot use them
as they require two hands at all times to fly them
It doesn't prevent from briging them, even if it's just to listen to people. They even sell earbuds that connect to the radios, so the require 2 hand bullshit excuse doesn't work.
AgreedPratt X 3 wrote:When you deal with TC, get the response in writing with the inspectors name. And until it is in writing, what they say doesn't amount to jack squat. You can ask 4 different inspectors and get 5 different opinions (you're halfway there; only 2 more to go!) And remember that there are very few TC inspectors left that have a real interest in aviation like in the good 'ole days. Most are only interested in keeping off the radar and getting their pension. They would rather no airplanes left the ground as that would give them less work and less risk to something preventing them from collecting that pension. The longer they stay out of the industry and in their office, the more off the wall things they come up with, including no IFR in an ATF. A bit cynical, maybe, or I've just had bad luck seeing some of these things first hand.fleet16b wrote:My point was that IFR approaches at an ATF are a questionable at best.
Not to mention apparently not allowed at an ATF according to TC
However, I am beginning to question that TC statement after listening to some of the IFR people here and plan to question TC further.
Not to mention headset jacks, so you can use your headset to listen and transmit through the handheld.AuxBatOn wrote:It doesn't prevent from briging them, even if it's just to listen to people. They even sell earbuds that connect to the radios, so the require 2 hand bullshit excuse doesn't work.
I do not fly a NORDO Finch but if I was in that scenario in a NORDO aircraft , I would get in line behind the last aircraft in the circuit , which in this case would be the second trainer.goingnowherefast wrote:Fleet16b, now I'm posing a question for you.
What would you, as a NORDO pilot, prefer a business jet do?
It needs to be at least 150kts in the circuit and has an approach speed of 120kts. It's downwind is 3 miles beside the runway, and needs to fly a 3 mile final in order to complete a safe stabilized approach. It's also in the medium wake turbulence category. It just broke out of cloud 6 miles away at 2000' AGL on an instrument approach. You are flying a NORDO Fleet Finch, and there's 2 other small single engine trainers in the circuit as well, but they have radios and know about the jet.
I guess Im not answering clear enoughAuxBatOn wrote:And then what? Once you see there is a Citation on final, what would you do?
AuxBatOn wrote:What if there is space in front of the Citation for the second trainer but not for you?
As #4 , I land #4AuxBatOn wrote:I guess I wasn't clear:
1- What do you prefer the Citation does
2- What actions do you take
Really you need this much detail ?goingnowherefast wrote:What do you prefer the Citation do?
I can't believe I have to break it down further you must be trollinggoingnowherefast wrote:Your really not being clear at all. Are you trying to say that after the second trainer lands, you let the citation go straight in, then you are #4 afterwards?
Nonsense. It was *stated* several posts ago, I don't agree that it's correct. Conforming to a circuit does not necessarily mean flying the exact same path that every other airplane flies. It means slotting in without f*cking up the established pattern. If it's just one NORDO, as in the quoted scenario, then fly a big loop and let him land, because he was there first.goingnowherefast wrote:It is impossible for a Citation to conform to a 152/cub circuit. This was established several posts ago.
Correct, but the scenario given was a NORDO landing in minimum conditions, not landing below VFR. I've flown many times at VFR minimums. I don't see why "at minimums" is any different than "CAVOK". The VFR aircraft is established in the circuit. The IFR aircraft is joining an established circuit.Plus the scenario you quoted was a NORDO in bad weather and a Citation on an instrument approach. Please don't take comments out of context.
I wasn't trying to remove the context, just to clarify that the situation is clear, from a regulatory standpoint. The VFR traffic in the circuit has right-of-way. Personally, I would be the first to offer to extend my downwind if an IFR aircraft was approaching and it looked potentially conflicting or if they asked me to. But if I was NORDO and not expecting an IFR arrival, i'd be damned startled to find a Citation on short final as i'm coming down my base leg.That's exactly how things normally go. IFR traffic makes radio calls, works out a plan with the other traffic. The guy in the cub knows that 3 minutes of fuel is one liter and less than the price of the coffee he bought on the way to the airport. But again, you are removing the context of the scenario.
That's exactly what I call "conforming to the circuit". By all means, the IFR pilot should ask if the circuit can accommodate him. I'd bet that a lot of the time people will be accommodating. But if the circuit isn't skilled enough (yet, as in students) to accomodate, or if there are NORDO traffic that communication can't be established with, then the skilled commercial pilot must fall back to making do, by making their own gap.A typical scenario...lands before the first 152 turns base again.
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