North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 2015

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
cgzro
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1735
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:45 am

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by cgzro »

"Those familiar with the scientific literature will realize that completely wrong papers are published regularly, even in peer-reviewed journals, and even when (as for this paper) many of the flaws ought to have been obvious to the reviewers. So perhaps there’s nothing too notable about the publication of this paper. On the other hand, one may wonder whether the stringency of the review process was affected by how congenial the paper’s conclusions were to the editor and reviewers. One may also wonder whether a paper reaching the opposite conclusion would have been touted as a great achievement by Stanford University. Certainly this paper should be seen as a reminder that the reverence for “peer-reviewed scientific studies” sometimes seen in popular expositions is unfounded."
Bradford Neil - Professor of Statistics and Computer Science at the University of Toronto

I think almost everybody publishing/reviewing/or otherwise involved in the scientific process (in which I include myself) would agree with the above. I would hope that the general public and folks like Rockie would stop talking about peer review as if its some kind of guarantee. By all means make your arguments but this peer review should not be one of your anchor points. Argue on reproducibility/independence etc.
---------- ADS -----------
 
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7702
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote:Okay Pelmet, I've done your work for you because clearly you're not able to do it yourself. Here's a theory I found but I warn you, not being an astronomer I don't fully understand it so if you're looking for an explanation you'll have to ask B208 who rumour has it has melted chemicals over a bunsen burner and is a scientist. You'll have to read it yourself though unless you want me to come over and do it for you before you go to bed...

Place your mouse over the link and left click. I am unable to do it remotely for you.

Good luck with it. Anxiously awaiting your proclamation that Milankovitch was full of s**t too and the reasons why.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles

http://ossfoundation.us/projects/enviro ... ural-cycle
More condescending remarks from the alarmist camp which is what any of us should always expect from these arrogant people. I did read about the theory, and it is a theory that the changes in tilt of the earth have an effect on the climate. But what does that tilt do? Alter the angel that the sun's rays strike the earth. That's right, the sun. It is what truly effects this planet.

I suggest you read this Wikipedia article that a Norwegian physicist named Svensmark on what is causing global warming. Henrik Svensmark is director of the Center for Sun-Climate Research at the Danish Space Research Institute (DSRI), a part of the Danish National Space Center. He previously headed the sun-climate group at DSRI. He held postdoctoral positions in physics at three other organizations: University of California, Berkeley, Nordic Institute for Theoretical Physics, and the Niels Bohr Institute.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrik_Svensmark

And remember something...he is a scientist so he must be right. After all, you do believe in science don't you Rockie. It is a part of your everyday life. Science allows you to live the comfortable life you live. I don't question Mr. Svensmark's theory because I am not a scientist and neither are you. I believe what he says because I believe in science.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by Rockie »

No one has said peer review is perfect and you geniuses are certainly dismissive of it, but you're just making noise out of your ass because you haven't suggested a better system. I'll say it again, you're the loudmouths in the back of the plane and the world has stopped listening to you. Even dimwits should be able to see that.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by Rockie »

Pelmet

Man made GHG's are trapping and absorbing heat which is why the climate is warming when it shouldn't be. Where do you think the heat is coming from if not the sun? Saying the climate is warming because of the sun is possibly the dumbest statement uttered by anybody older than six.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by Rockie »

Rejoice people, this is my last post on this thread because the sheer level of ignorance, arrogance and stupidity is getting even me frustrated.

Here's the deal, the world is smarter than you and no longer listens to your nonsense. You've been shelved along with the flat earthers and creationists. Deal with it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by photofly »

Rockie wrote:No one has said peer review is perfect and you geniuses are certainly dismissive of it, but you're just making noise out of your ass because you haven't suggested a better system.
I think you misunderstand Peter's point. The fact that we don't suggest a better system - is not an argument that justifies your unshakeable faith in this system. There's no contradiction between the position that there is no better system, and that this system is still both flawed and widely misinterpreted as a guarantee of "correctness" by the wider public.
Rockie wrote: Rejoice people, this is my last post on this thread because the sheer level of ignorance, arrogance and stupidity is getting even me frustrated.
Cough cough...
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Confliction
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:47 pm

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by Confliction »

Only 97% of us are ignorant, arrogant and stupid...

:rolleyes:
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Boreas
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:06 pm
Location: The haunted corners of familiar rooms

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by Boreas »

Let it go Rockie. Anyone who denies the human component in global
warming in 2016 is not worth arguing with. Its that simple.

For the rest of you Kool-aid drinkers, that I can only assume work(ed)
and/or live or are otherwise tied to the oil patch... chin up.
---------- ADS -----------
 
crazyaviator
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 671
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:52 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by crazyaviator »

You've been shelved along with the flat earthers and creationists.
I see where your coming from now :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
cgzro
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1735
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:45 am

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by cgzro »

haven't suggested a better system.
Yes, just not on this site.

There are a lot of people pushing for all data and code to be made publicly available on-line for review/replication by 100's of people. As it is today none of the results of a paper are verified by the reviewers (unless its pure math), its is just read through for obvious glaring errors. If you believe otherwise you are wrong. In fact only a couple of times have reviewers ever asked for code/data for papers and if you search you will find a quote from the editor of Nature saying she had never had such a request. I have never had anybody ask for copies of the data and code that went into the small number of papers I have published, nor have I ever asked to see the code and data of a paper that I have peer reviewed. I know nobody that has experienced either of these as part of peer review although there is one exception that is well known and caused all manner of fighting and FOI requests.

Anyway the quote that I gave above was a pretty well known statistician complaining publicly about a particular paper that didn't even use the data it claimed to have used which was obvious from one of the graphs. He was suggesting, as most true scientists , that peer-review is broken. That paper was quoted 93 times by the media as are many wrong papers, but the retractions, if they ever are made never make it the media.

I'm sorry if that upsets you or goes against your opinion, but you should not put your faith in peer-review. You should put your faith in replication/falsification/reproducibility, those are the things which have built the modern scientific world and all of our achievements. Peer review as its practiced today has very little to do with science except a cursory gate keeping for glaring errors, and it would seem it does not even do that.

I will also note that just because I am pointing out something about peer review does not mean I am making broad statements about human caused warming. I am making instead broad statements about all science and a need to be skeptical and to demand all the data and proper replication before getting too worked up about it.

To summarize, I am not arguing anything technical here, I am pointing out a single thing, and that is you should not be convinced by 'peer review' you should set your bar higher. I fail to see how such an obvious and provably correct observation made by me and many others makes us somehow 'deniers' or 'ignorant'.

It is perfectly possible for a sensible person even one trained in math, science etc. to think peer-review is crap but still be concerned about global warming. In fact I would argue that the more worried about global warming you are the more you should be angry about the state of peer review and demand that it be fixed so it can't be used as a reason for inaction.
---------- ADS -----------
 
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7702
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote:Rejoice people, this is my last post on this thread because the sheer level of ignorance, arrogance and stupidity is getting even me frustrated.

Here's the deal, the world is smarter than you and no longer listens to your nonsense. You've been shelved along with the flat earthers and creationists. Deal with it.
Well there you have it guys. (a) I point out clearly that the 97% of scientists statement is an obviously complete falsehood(and what critical thinker would accept this as fact anyways), (b) after repeated attempts for an explanations of past global warming and refusal to do so, we finally get a link or two to a theory explaining it(and it is obvious that this was the first time said poster had even looked this info up), (c) finally get an admission that peer review is no guarantee of anything and has major faults(after it was held up to be infallible), (d) discover that most of the scientists that actually do support the mad made global warming theory are out of their element on that subject(when they were stated to be the only ones capable of understanding such a subject), (e) get no response about a credible study about another quite plausible theory about the reason for recent and past global warming, and finally (e)as quoted above, when critical questions are asked and errors pointed out, Rockie leaves in a huff with a bunch of insults to add to his considerable amount of previous insults.

This is the typical experience one gets from the man-made global warming crowd. And they just sent 2.4 billion dollars of your money to third world countries to help them become greener. Gee, I wonder where that money will go.
---------- ADS -----------
 
cgzro
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1735
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:45 am

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by cgzro »

I think you misunderstand Peter's point. The fact that we don't suggest a better system - is not an argument that justifies your unshakeable faith in this system. There's no contradiction between the position that there is no better system, and that this system is still both flawed and widely misinterpreted as a guarantee of "correctness" by the wider public.
Precisely, with the addition that I think the Internet is going to change the old guard approach to publish and peer review. We are seeing more and more proper analysis/review/audit of papers and the discussion and technical debates are about a million times more in depth than cursory peer-review.

So people are proposing alternatives but the old guard is really resisting it to the point of lawsuits etc.. the medical profession is the first to really see this but psychology and of course climate science are having similar problems.

Its perfectly possible to push for all data all code and replicability and still be extremely concerned about whatever scientific topic worries you. The two are not at odds .. they are in fact completely aligned and is the best way to convince any technically savvy people who are not convinced by simple peer-review. Replicate, free the data, free the code.

So Rockie is wrong, there is a far better way and it is being proposed but being resisted. Rocky is also wrong that nobody is saying peer review is the be-all end-all for perfection. It is widely described as the 'gold standard' by pundits all over the world. They are all wrong. There is only one gold standard, replicability, falsification. *1

*1- Note that pure math and physics which is pure math based can be well served by peer-review because anybody can check the math since its all there in the paper but those are a tiny fraction of all published science these days.
---------- ADS -----------
 
anofly
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:46 am

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by anofly »

I am not a mod, but I think a little more decorum would probably keep more folks interested here. Spirited discussion, fine, these body slams don't make most of the world want to play here. I think "generally" that both atmospheric and (ocean) dissolved CO2 levels are higher than they were, due to mankind burning fossil fuels. I think most folks generally agree with that. Scientists included. Now we might not know for sure if or if not that causes global warming. Clearly the earth has had higher CO2 levels in the past, and it has been much warmer in the past. It has also been much colder in the past. Whatever happened 10,000 years ago was likely not man made. There simply were not many of us on the planet then. Plant a tree this spring. Maybe a few. Once upon a time the earth was much warmer and it had higher CO2 levels at the same time. This experiment most of us won't live long enough to see the results. Carbon, cars, coal,chainsaws, cows......
---------- ADS -----------
 
cgzro
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1735
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:45 am

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by cgzro »

more decorum would probably keep more folks interested here
Unfortunately name calling is rampant from the POTUS on down so its not surprising that folks that don't understand detail oriented debates think its ok to be abusive. There are also a lot of folks that see such attacks and either hide from the debate, or form a silent opposite opinion and don't look any deeper. Many will present the proper answer externally while harbouring a different answer internally. None of these are good no matter what the reality is.

Perhaps, given that this is after all an aviation site, a more interesting discussion would be to start with the premise that catastrophic warming will proceed exactly as per the models and ask what as pilots should we do about it?
---------- ADS -----------
 
hoptwoit
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 251
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:43 am

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by hoptwoit »

Yayyyy..... It will be the 1930s all over again when the ice caps melt. Flying boats and floatplanes, my favorite!!!! :roll:

Rockie will be back. I can hear him biting his tongue. He always seems to get the last word in on a thread like this. Right before it gets locked. :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
People should not have to fear both the government and the criminal. It should be that the criminal fears both the people and the government.
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7702
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by pelmet »

Boreas wrote:Let it go Rockie. Anyone who denies the human component in global
warming in 2016 is not worth arguing with. Its that simple.

For the rest of you Kool-aid drinkers, that I can only assume work(ed)
and/or live or are otherwise tied to the oil patch... chin up.
Anyone can make statements such as yours with nothing to back it up but....

What if you are correct. What if instead of the most likely theory of global warming being caused by our sun, it is actually the unlikely cause of human activity. Well....

Reading a BBC news report today, human activity has delayed the next ice age by up to 50,000 years. Which is fantastic news because according to the reported study, we are now in the perfect conditions from an astronomical point of view for a new ice age. Can you imagine if that were the case. Mass starvation due to failed crops, wars created by desperate countries, hundreds of millions of climate change refugees pouring in(or perhaps out of our cold northern nations such as Canada). Summers where the temperature never got above 15 degrees C. Snow in July.

So feel good that you have been doing your small part to help save this planet from disaster and go out and burn some carbon whether on your motorcycle or recreational aircraft flying.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35307800

"Carbon emissions 'postpone ice age'

The next ice age may have been delayed by over 50,000 years because of the greenhouse gases put in the atmosphere by humans, scientists in Germany say.

They analysed the trigger conditions for a glaciation, like the one that gripped Earth over 12,000 years ago.

The shape of the planet's orbit around the Sun would be conducive now, they find, but the amount of carbon dioxide currently in the air is far too high.

Earth is set for a prolonged warm phase, they tell the journal Nature.

"In theory, the next ice age could be even further into the future, but there is no real practical importance in discussing whether it starts in 50,000 or 100,000 years from now," Andrey Ganopolski from the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research said.

"The important thing is that it is an illustration that we have a geological power now. We can change the natural sequence of events for tens of thousands of years," he told BBC News.

Earth has been through a cycle of ice ages and warm periods over the past 2.5 million years, referred to as the Quaternary Period.

This has seen ice sheets come and go. At its maximum extent, the last glaciation witnessed a big freeze spread over much of North America, northern Europe, Russia and Asia.

In the south, a vast expanse of what are now Chile and Argentina were also iced up.

A fundamental parameter determining what dips Earth into an ice age is the changing nature of its orbit around the Sun.

The passage around the star is not a perfect circle and over time our planet's axis of rotation also rocks back and forth.

These movements alter the amount of solar radiation falling on the Earth's surface, and if a critical threshold is reached in mid latitudes in the Northern Hemisphere then a glaciation can be initiated.

Dr Ganopolski colleagues confirm this in their modelling but show also the role played by the concentration of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

And one of their findings is that Earth probably missed the inception by only a narrow margin a few hundred years ago, just before the industrial revolution took hold.

"We are now in a period when our (northern) summer is furthest from the Sun," the Potsdam researcher explained.

"Under normal circumstances, the interglacial would be terminated, and a new ice age would start. So, in principle, we are in the perfect conditions from an astronomical point of view. If we had a CO2 concentration of 240 parts per million (200 years ago) then an ice age could start, but luckily we had a concentration that was higher, 280 ppm." Today, industrial society has taken that concentration to over 400 ppm.

The team says that an interglacial climate would probably have been sustained anyway for at least 20,000 years, and, very probably, for 50,000 years, even if CO2 had stayed at its eighteenth century level.

But the almost 500 gigatonnes of carbon that has been released since the Industrial Revolution means we will likely miss the next best astronomical entry point into a glaciation, and with a further 500 gigatonnes of emissions the "probability of glacial inception during the next 100,000 years is notably reduced", the scientists say in their Nature paper.

Add a further 500 Gt C on top of that and the next ice age is virtually guaranteed to be delayed beyond the next 100,000 years.

Commenting on the study, Prof Eric Wolff from the University of Cambridge, UK, said: "There have been previous papers suggesting that the next ice age is many tens of thousands of years away, and that the combination of seasonal solar energy at the latitude where an ice sheet would form, plus CO2, is what determines the onset of an ice age. But this paper goes much further towards quantifying where the limits are.

"It represents a nice confirmation that there is a relatively simple way of estimating the combination of insolation and CO2 to start an ice age," he told the Science Media Centre.

And Prof Chris Rapley, from University College London, added: "This is an interesting result that provides further evidence that we have entered a new geological [Epoch] - 'The Anthropocene' - in which human actions are affecting the very metabolism of the planet.""
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by pelmet on Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by photofly »

cgzro wrote:*1- Note that pure math and physics which is pure math based can be well served by peer-review because anybody can check the math since its all there in the paper but those are a tiny fraction of all published science these days.
Some of us side with Lord Rutherford ...
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quote ... 77084.html
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
FICU
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1291
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:37 am

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by FICU »

Interesting article on the past predictions of global warming... http://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/01/13/t ... edictions/

Quotes of note:
Displaying the three prediction-vs.-reality graphs side by side shows just how badly off beam have been the official predictions on the basis of which governments continue to squander trillions.
The West is purposelessly destroying its industries, its workers’ jobs, its prosperity, its countryside, and above all its scientific credibility, by continuing to allow an unholy mesalliance of politicians, profiteers, academics, environmental extremists, journalists and hard-left activists to proclaim, in defiance of the data now plainly shown for all to see for the first time, that the real rate of global warming is “worse than we thought”. It isn’t.
---------- ADS -----------
 
B208
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:00 pm

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by B208 »

Rockie wrote:Rejoice people, this is my last post on this thread because the sheer level of ignorance, arrogance and stupidity is getting even me frustrated.

Here's the deal, the world is smarter than you and no longer listens to your nonsense. You've been shelved along with the flat earthers and creationists. Deal with it.
Rockie, your problem is that you are not smart enough to know when you are ignorant. Peace out dude.
---------- ADS -----------
 
MrWings
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1004
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 10:35 am

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by MrWings »

pelmet wrote: Reading a BBC news report today, human activity has delayed the next ice age by up to 50,000 years. Which is fantastic news because according to the reported study, we are now in the perfect conditions from an astronomical point of view for a new ice age. Can you imagine if that were the case. Mass starvation due to failed crops, wars created by desperate countries, hundreds of millions of climate change refugees pouring in(or perhaps out of our cold northern nations such as Canada). Summers where the temperature never got above 15 degrees C. Snow in July.

So feel good that you have been doing your small part to help save this planet from disaster and go out and burn some carbon whether on your motorcycle or recreational aircraft flying.
You are trying to have it both ways. You are obviously doing Google research and concede that man-made global warming could be a thing. But then you say it is a good thing and be proud that we're pumping harmful levels of CO2 in the air.

It is clear that your agenda is to support the hydrocarbon industry no matter what evidence is directed your way or what any experts say.
---------- ADS -----------
 
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7702
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by pelmet »

MrWings wrote:
pelmet wrote: Reading a BBC news report today, human activity has delayed the next ice age by up to 50,000 years. Which is fantastic news because according to the reported study, we are now in the perfect conditions from an astronomical point of view for a new ice age. Can you imagine if that were the case. Mass starvation due to failed crops, wars created by desperate countries, hundreds of millions of climate change refugees pouring in(or perhaps out of our cold northern nations such as Canada). Summers where the temperature never got above 15 degrees C. Snow in July.

So feel good that you have been doing your small part to help save this planet from disaster and go out and burn some carbon whether on your motorcycle or recreational aircraft flying.
You are trying to have it both ways. You are obviously doing Google research and concede that man-made global warming could be a thing. But then you say it is a good thing and be proud that we're pumping harmful levels of CO2 in the air.

It is clear that your agenda is to support the hydrocarbon industry no matter what evidence is directed your way or what any experts say.
You bring up a good point. I have always believed that our global warming that we have had over and over again including the most recent spell has been natural. However, the alarmists have insisted that it is man-made which of course is strictly a theory while there is no doubt that the repeated warming cycles of the past had to be natural as humans were not pumping out carbon in the past. So aside from the most recent warming period, my statement is based on fact.

The most recent warming cycle is the only one in dispute. So while I stick to my opinion that it is natural, just be thankful that this warming cycle is happening. Because if you are correct, humans just saved themselves from having to go through an ice age which is not something you want to experience.

I still remember the good old days up north at -20 and colder where I, and almost everyone else just left the car running with the heat full blast while at the shopping center and elsewhere. Nice getting into a toasty car and saving the planet at the same time.

As Ernest Gann said famously..."Somewhere in the heavens there is a great invisible genie who every so often lets down his pants and pisses all over the pillars of science."
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by pelmet on Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
timel
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1209
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:50 am

Re: North Pole temperature above freezing - December 30, 201

Post by timel »

image.jpg
image.jpg (92.4 KiB) Viewed 2217 times
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”