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WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
There is a policy. Then there is the Captains decision. Which is final, regardless of policy.RustyDeuce wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:34 pmHow so? Nobody gave you the right to decide who flies jump - there's a policy in place that decides who and in what order.lostaviator wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:50 amHow so?
Personally, a red pass is required for safety. Anyone can get a job at wj, get their wj id day 1 and hop in a jumpseat. If I can’t show my family where I work, I’m not showing a stranger.
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
You really want to get him going? Ask about those 757 Captains at Jazz that were the lowest paid in N. AmericaJumbo744 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:55 pmmbav8r wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:51 pmWho’s the bully again, your entire post including how you changed my handle, Hypocrite!eyebrow737 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:02 am
Mastib8r , I didn't say I supported them. I just don't like communist pilots who resort to the form of intimidation and bullying.
You want to talk about a hypocrite? As I have said before, in a fair world westjet would been out of business a long time ago for what you have all contributed to the reputation of a pilot and to our salaries.
Go back and pick up more garbage and tell more bad jokes. You're all only now starting to realize what a piece of crud regional airline you really work for now that the cool aid has dried off... haven't you?
You wanted to be the bottom of the race to the bottom and now some one has taken that away from you... jealous much?
Also, I’m not a WJ pilot, I’m a Jazz pilot who has been undercut by pilots that went to SR, then 10 of them figured they hadn’t screwed over enough pilots, they swooped WJ pilots too.
History is just that, the WJ pilots are doing something now and the majority of them were not there for the initial start up phase you refer to.
wow wow...wait a minute mbav8r: you have a lot of posts in this thread and you are not even a Westjet employee? bro you have way too much free time on your hands. Either that or you are not telling the truth and you actually are a Westjet pilot. If you are not, I feel really sorry for you for being so emotionally involved in a battle where your say does not count. Get a life man. And SR pilots have a better salary than you guys at Jazz. How much do CRJ FOs get paid again? Minimum credit gives FOs something like 1900$ a month after tax. That salary is nothing to be proud of, it's actually pathetic.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
That’s the problem with our profession, we have thieves who think it’s ok to take flying from other groups for much less pay, then supposed Pilots who defend those actions and then ones who think it doesn’t affect them so why get involved.Jumbo744 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:55 pmmbav8r wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:51 pmWho’s the bully again, your entire post including how you changed my handle, Hypocrite!eyebrow737 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:02 am
Mastib8r , I didn't say I supported them. I just don't like communist pilots who resort to the form of intimidation and bullying.
You want to talk about a hypocrite? As I have said before, in a fair world westjet would been out of business a long time ago for what you have all contributed to the reputation of a pilot and to our salaries.
Go back and pick up more garbage and tell more bad jokes. You're all only now starting to realize what a piece of crud regional airline you really work for now that the cool aid has dried off... haven't you?
You wanted to be the bottom of the race to the bottom and now some one has taken that away from you... jealous much?
Also, I’m not a WJ pilot, I’m a Jazz pilot who has been undercut by pilots that went to SR, then 10 of them figured they hadn’t screwed over enough pilots, they swooped WJ pilots too.
History is just that, the WJ pilots are doing something now and the majority of them were not there for the initial start up phase you refer to.
wow wow...wait a minute mbav8r: you have a lot of posts in this thread and you are not even a Westjet employee? bro you have way too much free time on your hands. Either that or you are not telling the truth and you actually are a Westjet pilot. If you are not, I feel really sorry for you for being so emotionally involved in a battle where your say does not count. Get a life man. And SR pilots have a better salary than you guys at Jazz. How much do CRJ FOs get paid again? Minimum credit gives FOs something like 1900$ a month after tax. That salary is nothing to be proud of, it's actually pathetic.
You know, Jazz “new” wages are a reflection of SR and GGN wages. As an 8 year FO, when SR came to be I was making roughly the same hourly pay as SR Captains, about 70/hr. So, the pay has gone up, it doesn’t change the fact they undercut Jazz pilots significantly when they started.
What happens when pilots undercut other pilots, well Jazz used to be 133 aircraft and 940 flights daily and arguably the highest paid regional pilots, at the very least in NA. Now, 735 daily flights and 111 aircraft, soon to be 101 when the last of the CRJ200s leave the fleet. How many aircraft at SR?
There used to be scope, unfortunately shortsightedness by ACPA pilots removed that language and the results are what we have today.
WJ pilots had scope and some thieves would have you believe because WJ management decided to do an end run around that scope, it must’ve been legit. I applaud the WJ pilots for standing up and their willingness to fight for what’s right, unfortunately once the horse is out the barn no arbitration will undo the damage, that’s why tbaylx and his ilk still have a job and stand to gain off the backs of the WJ pilots, sometimes bad deeds do get rewarded. tbaylx is scum and all he can do is try and justify his immoral decision to steal form all the WJ pilots, I for one of many hope he gets his due. I imagine one can get depressed wandering around knowing you’re hated by most of your coworkers.
Johnnyhotrocks, thanks for the laugh this morning! It’s called status pay, lol.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
It is a very bad profession for this type of behavior and it unnerves me that these methods will slowly move over to other professions when my children are adults further driving down wages.mbav8r wrote: ↑Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:12 am WJ pilots had scope and some thieves would have you believe because WJ management decided to do an end run around that scope, it must’ve been legit. I applaud the WJ pilots for standing up and their willingness to fight for what’s right, unfortunately once the horse is out the barn no arbitration will undo the damage, that’s why tbaylx and his ilk still have a job and stand to gain off the backs of the WJ pilots, sometimes bad deeds do get rewarded. tbaylx is scum and all he can do is try and justify his immoral decision to steal form all the WJ pilots, I for one of many hope he gets his due. I imagine one can get depressed wandering around knowing you’re hated by most of your coworkers.
Johnnyhotrocks, thanks for the laugh this morning! It’s called status pay, lol.
There is something inherently wrong with the system no doubt and that needs fixing.
The fact that an experienced pilot is held hostage to a company because if they move to another company their wages will drop by half?
The fact that a 777 training captain wants a change of scenery and for him to do that he must now sit right seat in a turboprop to someone half his age with 1/10 of his experience earning what he earned 30 years ago.
What a tremendous waste of resources and talent.
We are being held hostage by the companies and not being able to move in a free market whilst also increasing our income and benefits.
When we are held hostage we can then be easily manipulated.
There is something wrong with the system and it is producing people like mbav8r and tbayix who are just doing their best to survive.
We need to start seeing the forest for the trees as a profession
Last edited by sicamore on Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
The WestJet situation has ramifications far beyond WJ it's self. It will impact the whole industry. Every time a CBA is up for negotiations, they look at the competition's rates. WJ lowers the bar, AC management pressures for concessions. Sunwing pilots have a harder time upping their pay, etc. Then it has a trickle down affect through the rest of the industry. Why would Encore pay 90 grand for a captain when his other option is 45 grand at Swoop? Now Encore pay goes down, it causes Jazz to push for concessions. It trickles all the way down to 703.
This may be a WJ issue that only WJ pilots have direct influence over, however every pilot in Canada should be supporting the WJ MEC. Jazz may not be perfect, I don't know the whole 757 story, but let's learn from the mistakes of the past and work to improve the future.
This may be a WJ issue that only WJ pilots have direct influence over, however every pilot in Canada should be supporting the WJ MEC. Jazz may not be perfect, I don't know the whole 757 story, but let's learn from the mistakes of the past and work to improve the future.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Ok, are you saying WestJet never offered Swoop flying to its own pilots at a lower rate?Transonic wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:28 pmNo, as in decline flying because wages offered were lower. ACPA did not give up Rouge flying because it was less. ACPA pilots fly rouge aircraft.
And was ALPA's focus to get the flying first or was it to raise pay across the board? And why didn't it allow for LOAs until things were sorted out? That would have eliminated the need to hire from outside. I'm no expert, but imagine the company had a deadline to keep.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
tbayix knows exactly what he was doing. He is not doing his best to survive. He's made a decent living for himself and his family in aviation. The sad thing is, there is no reason for him to have done it. He left a rock solid job with the government, with a generous paycheck, pension, far better medical / dental benefits, weekends off, holidays off, where he could be at home with his wife and three young children. He clearly doesn't give a hoot what his peers, former coworkers and former friends think of him. Before his government job, he went through many jobs that guys make a career out of, from Sunwing to Canadian North, to Emirates and Oman Air. Even had he done nothing in his career and stayed with Air Georgian, he'd be making a six figure income and enjoying top seniority. If anything, his personality is known to grate on others and he wears out his welcome quick. If you don't believe me, ask a friendly WS pilot, as there is a thread re him circulating amongst hundreds of them with nary a kind word to be said.
And if he felt the longing for airline flying - why did he leave SW a year and a half ago, where he would have been in the same position (737NG Capt), except with several years seniority. With his qualifications, if he really wanted to get back into airline flying, he could do far far better than Swoop.
I, for one, am STOKED for June 15th, when one of the two things will happen
1. He will turn in his ID badge and be escorted OFF the property
-or-
2. Best case scenario for him, he'll become an FO on the combined WS-Scoop list, and he'll carry his 80000 employee number like a like a Badge of Cowardice the rest of his time here, so that everyone will know that he was willing to stab you in the back for his own benefit.
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Predictably missed his point entirely and back to pointing fingers and blaming others.
Canadians pilots have some of the worst pay, benefits, vacations, duty and fatigue standards in the western world (not to say third world)
Isn't it time to look at the way we do things and try something different?
Don't tell me that alpa is trying to do something different. They are doing the same thing that has happened time and time again.
It's about time that the pilots here start to take a long hard look at themselves and realise that they are part of the problem.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Cloak,cloak wrote: ↑Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:51 amOk, are you saying WestJet never offered Swoop flying to its own pilots at a lower rate?
And was ALPA's focus to get the flying first or was it to raise pay across the board? And why didn't it allow for LOAs until things were sorted out? That would have eliminated the need to hire from outside. I'm no expert, but imagine the company had a deadline to keep.
The company would only discuss Swoop with the union if they agreed to surrender bargaining rights as granted by part 1 of the labour code.
The union told the company to pound sand and then WestJet started all of its half baked ideas starting with offering internal side-deals.
JJJ
Last edited by jjj on Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
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Last edited by jjj on Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
You have no idea of my personal situations and reasons so don't pretend. If you're done being an anonymous internet hero feel free to PM me your name so I know which of my "friends" i'm dealing with.JTF01 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:20 amtbayix knows exactly what he was doing. He is not doing his best to survive. He's made a decent living for himself and his family in aviation. The sad thing is, there is no reason for him to have done it. He left a rock solid job with the government, with a generous paycheck, pension, far better medical / dental benefits, weekends off, holidays off, where he could be at home with his wife and three young children. He clearly doesn't give a hoot what his peers, former coworkers and former friends think of him. Before his government job, he went through many jobs that guys make a career out of, from Sunwing to Canadian North, to Emirates and Oman Air. Even had he done nothing in his career and stayed with Air Georgian, he'd be making a six figure income and enjoying top seniority. If anything, his personality is known to grate on others and he wears out his welcome quick. If you don't believe me, ask a friendly WS pilot, as there is a thread re him circulating amongst hundreds of them with nary a kind word to be said.
And if he felt the longing for airline flying - why did he leave SW a year and a half ago, where he would have been in the same position (737NG Capt), except with several years seniority. With his qualifications, if he really wanted to get back into airline flying, he could do far far better than Swoop.
I, for one, am STOKED for June 15th, when one of the two things will happen
1. He will turn in his ID badge and be escorted OFF the property
-or-
2. Best case scenario for him, he'll become an FO on the combined WS-Scoop list, and he'll carry his 80000 employee number like a like a Badge of Cowardice the rest of his time here, so that everyone will know that he was willing to stab you in the back for his own benefit.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
I agree. Our willingness to undercut each other for work has had devastating consequences. Time and time again we have demonstrated our willingness to do things that may benefit us, at the expense of the greater good.eyebrow737 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:50 am
Canadians pilots have some of the worst pay, benefits, vacations, duty and fatigue standards in the western world (not to say third world)
Isn't it time to look at the way we do things and try something different?
Don't tell me that alpa is trying to do something different. They are doing the same thing that has happened time and time again.
It's about time that the pilots here start to take a long hard look at themselves and realise that they are part of the problem.
Individualism creates a competitive atmosphere which benefits only the employer. Individualism can be something as small as a handful of pilots undercutting a larger group or something larger where say ACPA undercuts ALPA. Or ALPA tries to undercut ACPA. It’s a one way street down hill. It’s simply doing what I want despite the consequences to the greater good.
Ineffectual collectivism, since AC pilots left the fold, has lead to individualism throughout our profession and has allowed this disastrous state of affairs.
Collectivism. Everyone under one umbrella. No competing with each other. No under cutting. Or at the very least, to the greatest extent possible.
It’s long past time for everyone to be ALPA. Time for common goals that respect each other, advance the profession for everyone in it and for those that follow.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
ALPA is part of the problem. Its the seniority system that ties pilots to one particular airline and makes experience count for very little. A national seniority system where you can carry your seniority from one airline to another and change jobs without severe financial repercussions would force companies to compete for talent and raise wages.Fanblade wrote: ↑Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:39 amI agree. Our willingness to undercut each other for work has had devastating consequences. Time and time again we have demonstrated our willingness to do things that may benefit us, at the expense of the greater good.eyebrow737 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:50 am
Canadians pilots have some of the worst pay, benefits, vacations, duty and fatigue standards in the western world (not to say third world)
Isn't it time to look at the way we do things and try something different?
Don't tell me that alpa is trying to do something different. They are doing the same thing that has happened time and time again.
It's about time that the pilots here start to take a long hard look at themselves and realise that they are part of the problem.
Individualism creates a competitive atmosphere which benefits only the employer. Individualism can be something as small as a handful of pilots undercutting a larger group or something larger where say ACPA undercuts ALPA. Or ALPA tries to undercut ACPA. It’s a one way street down hill. It’s simply doing what I want despite the consequences to the greater good.
Ineffectual collectivism, since AC pilots left the fold, has lead to individualism throughout our profession and has allowed this disastrous state of affairs.
Collectivism. Everyone under one umbrella. No competing with each other. No under cutting. Or at the very least, to the greatest extent possible.
It’s long past time for everyone to be ALPA. Time for common goals that respect each other, advance the profession for everyone in it and for those that follow.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Well, exactly. That's what we're trying to do. We started with Encore. Then you come along, take advantage of our labour issues, and attempt to enrich yourself by jumping to the front of the line ahead of our Encore colleagues.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Stop with the blame. Become part of the solution. What the scoop pilots have done is done. It will work its way out on the 15th. You're bitter we get it. Move on.
Looking ahead, yes we need some way to be able to transfer our experience. This would allow a westjet captain to go DEC into AC. It would incentivise companies to keep wages high to keep their captains. At the moment, they know they don't have to do anything because a captain won't move.
I don't agree with a collective approach at all. It stinks of marxism to me and that is part of the problem here in canada with unions. Too much us vs them.
We need a way to reward individualism without being harmful to the common good.
It is done in every other professional industry... why not here? Any doctor, lawyer, banker etc will go to who pays the highest... and continue moving if it becomes worth it. This pushes the companies to continue increasing salaries and benefits. Who ever heard of any of them going somewhere else and starting in the mail room again at half the salary?
In a way airlines must love unions. It takes the free market out of the employee equation and makes us easier to control.
Lets bring laissez-faire capitalism back and start letting companies compete for us. Isn't the time right?
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
A national list would be utopia.
Not very realistic though. You will never get buy in from the corporations that would see costs go up as a result. They like the locked in aspect of a seniority system. They don’t want to compete for you. They want you competing for them.
The best you can do is get as many pilots as possible rowing in the same direction. That can only be accomplished with all pilots at the same table, making cohesive decisions for the greater good of the profession.
Individualism will only lead to more individualism. People doing whatever they want.
Seniority lists force everyone to wait thier turn. Backstabbing becomes pointless. Que jumpers, entitled individuals, will always be with us. We need disincentives. The seniority system is that disincentive.
The only reason to want the seniority system abolished is because it acts as a road block to que jumping.
Our profession without a seniority list would turn into anarchy. Every man for himself.
Not very realistic though. You will never get buy in from the corporations that would see costs go up as a result. They like the locked in aspect of a seniority system. They don’t want to compete for you. They want you competing for them.
The best you can do is get as many pilots as possible rowing in the same direction. That can only be accomplished with all pilots at the same table, making cohesive decisions for the greater good of the profession.
Individualism will only lead to more individualism. People doing whatever they want.
Seniority lists force everyone to wait thier turn. Backstabbing becomes pointless. Que jumpers, entitled individuals, will always be with us. We need disincentives. The seniority system is that disincentive.
The only reason to want the seniority system abolished is because it acts as a road block to que jumping.
Our profession without a seniority list would turn into anarchy. Every man for himself.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Generally speaking a seniority system is not good for skilled workers, like doctors, lawyers, etc. It prevents them from moving and naturally going to higher paying jobs. Doctors and lawyers negotiate their own rates with firms which is predicated on their experience and needs of the firm if it be new graduates or seasoned lawyers. Even nurses do retain their years of service when they move to other hospitals, but not seniority which is used for schedule and vacation. If a hospital wants to hire new recruits or senior nurses with 8th year pay, it's up to their needs and budget. That may be a good compromise for pilots too. It may not be long when almost all airlines have to hire DECs. Ultimately pay and working conditions are determined by market forces, not unions.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
“Our profession without a seniority list would turn into anarchy. Every man for himself.” 99
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
The Captains decision isn't to hand pick who flies jump. It's follow the policy or don't let anyone fly jump. Pretty simple. Black and white.atphat wrote: ↑Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:46 amThere is a policy. Then there is the Captains decision. Which is final, regardless of policy.RustyDeuce wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:34 pmHow so? Nobody gave you the right to decide who flies jump - there's a policy in place that decides who and in what order.lostaviator wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:50 am
How so?
Personally, a red pass is required for safety. Anyone can get a job at wj, get their wj id day 1 and hop in a jumpseat. If I can’t show my family where I work, I’m not showing a stranger.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Many Captains have been pissing on that policy for years. So have the CSAs. They’re just happy it gets filled one way or another.
JJJ
JJJ