Jazz pilots contract?

[GTFA]

Dear Mr. MBA

Unfortunately this discussion has taken a regretful turn to misunderstanding and out of context assumptions.

Firstly you have interloped on an argument between an pilot and a ramp attendant. There is history here and both parties have issues.

Secondly regarding your particular flight, you fail to see the "Big Picture". Having an operating APU is a safety issue which you may not fully appreciate as you are only familiar with the short time you spent on this aircraft and are frustrated by the inconvenience it caused you. The Captain of this flight made a difficult call in that he is fully aware of both your personal frustration and the complications it causes the daily operations. Safety, operational integrity, customer service. Those are the priorities... in order of importance. Maybe your son can explain to you the hazards of operating in hot weather, on a busy schedule, on short segments, in confined quarters, with a full load of passengers, and only one flight attendant. Maybe he can't now, but after he has the experience and wisdom of the Captain you are questioning you would be more likely to understand and appreciate that particular decision on that particular day, on that particular aircraft, on that particular flight. "Sorry for any inconvenience, please speak to the agent in order to adjust your plans and request a passenger comment card to offer any suggestions to helping us serve you better."


GTFA

[GTFA]

[quote="Obbie"]Mr Hutchings

Despite your feelings of entitlement as a business passenger,
I am afraid your opinion as to whether an aircraft should depart
is of zero concern to ANY Captain at ANY airline.

Dear Obbie.

I am not sure of your years of service or commitment to this industry but your comments are not correct and do NOT reflect the level of professionalism and dedication to the success of our employer and passenger service that pilots of ALPA pursue.

GTFA

[one8tee]

Here's the deal.. I wouldn't walk into your business that you run and tell you how to do your job.. because I don't know enough about it. You shouldn't walk into this aircraft and tell the captain how to do his.. because clearly you do not know enough about it.

Your safety was his only concern.. unfortunatly the aircraft got delayed in the process.. He wasn't delaying it for no reason. If he didn't want that flight to go it wouldn't have gone. period.

Good luck to your son in his career.

180

[stickontheice]

Any word of retro pay since there hasn't been a contract for over a year?

[ggofp]

Mr. Hutchings
Let me educate you. Once pushed and the APU has been used to start the engines on most airliners it is shut off as now the engines can provide cooling. This is not the case with RJ's as the engines at taxi power provide next to no cooling.
I know this because it is my job. Yet in the past I have allowed myself to be coerced and threatened by my company into proceeding under just these circumstances. The cabin shot to 32C within 5 minutes and I was never able to get it under 30C in the 1 1/2 HR flight. Had someones grandmother or infant stroked out I would have been accountable because the only time airlines acknowledge Captains' authority is when the lawsuits fly! Please do not impart your thoughts on aviation to your son because he might end up a smokeing hole in the ground and his wife and children will be left without a pot to piss in.

[Hackmech]

I'm gonna have to disagree about the gentleman making an ass of himself. An easy solution to warm temperatures are the engines. You can take your ground air, when the APU is not available, start your engines, and use the bleed from the engines to supply the air conditoning packs, the aircraft will cool rapidly. I've had this "too hot" complaint several times and to this day I don't understand how its justified or the pilots get away with it. We've actually deplanned the passengers and the crew one to start the engines to cool down and A/C due to an unservicable APU. Its a terrible way to get your point across to the company. I suggest more professional approaches. Now as for your contract, I truly hope something gets worked out and soon. There is never a winner after a strike.

In Solidarity

YYC Maintenance

[Go Guns]

I personally think you guys really botched a huge opportunity to turn a bad customer service experience into a good one and win some support for your side. If that's how you represent your company why should they pay you anything at all? Even as an ex-Jazz guy I'm embarrassed.

[Jean-Pierre]

Come on. We all know this was an attempt to 'stick-it' to management. There was many pilots on here suggesting delaying flights on purpose and making up snags. Mr. Hutchings I apologize on behalf of fellow pilots. It's no excuse but they were attempting a (misguided) tactic to improve all our working conditions. We are not asking a lot only to what they were a decade ago. I'm sorry you got caught up in between. A large company like Jazz has a diverse range of employees. Many pilots are professionals like yourself. Some are only machine operators.

[rudder]

I'm gonna have to disagree about the gentleman making an ass of himself. An easy solution to warm temperatures are the engines. You can take your ground air, when the APU is not available, start your engines, and use the bleed from the engines to supply the air conditoning packs, the aircraft will cool rapidly. I've had this "too hot" complaint several times and to this day I don't understand how its justified or the pilots get away with it. We've actually deplanned the passengers and the crew one to start the engines to cool down and A/C due to an unservicable APU. Its a terrible way to get your point across to the company. I suggest more professional approaches. Now as for your contract, I truly hope something gets worked out and soon. There is never a winner after a strike.

In Solidarity

YYC Maintenance

Missing in your calculation is the heat that is generated by 50 bodies (the passengers). You clearly never have been sitting in the back when this happens. I have. It is unacceptable from a customer service point of view and in some instances dangerous (elderly, infant, or breathing problems).

[TA/RA]

Go Guns,

I see the koolaid has already taken its full affect. lol, did they upgrade the potency?

[maxwell1]

In regards to Mr. Hutchings comment, he may have an MBA, but life and working in the real world stops there..
Please note the law in canada stats: that no persons should be subject to work in a confined space above 74 degrees
in Canada, otherwise it is a health and safety issue. All workers must vacate or be removed from area until it is cool
enough to return.
To save money some aircraft at jazz have no apu's they rely on ground power heat/cooling units]...hence delays in summer and winter due
to weather conditions...nice way to treat your employees and customers...
As a flight attendant I have delayed many flights and refuse to work under illegal conditions. Plse note this or any company
won't be paying for any health issues down the retirement road because of the above abuse...
so mr. hutchings here are a few insights to give to your boy in ground school!

[swervin]

[quote="Hackmech"]I'm gonna have to disagree about the gentleman making an ass of himself. An easy solution to warm temperatures are the engines. You can take your ground air, when the APU is not available, start your engines, and use the bleed from the engines to supply the air conditoning packs, the aircraft will cool rapidly. I've had this "too hot" complaint several times and to this day I don't understand how its justified or the pilots get away with it. We've actually deplanned the passengers and the crew one to start the engines to cool down and A/C due to an unservicable APU. Its a terrible way to get your point across to the company. I suggest more professional approaches. Now as for your contract, I truly hope something gets worked out and soon. There is never a winner after a strike.

In Solidarity

YYC Maintenance[/quote

ummmm...... Have you ever seen how much airflow we get from the 10th stage bleeds at ground idle? I'll tell you it's dick all, pretty much 0 airflow..

[vref]

I think it's hilarious how someone comes on here and states his opinion (whether it be right or wrong) and you guys blast him about not being a pilot. What do you guys know about being a manager or an executive? I'm not sure if the flight that Mr. Hutchings was on a was a legitimate cancellation or delay but there certainly has been a rise in snags and bookoffs. You guys have no idea how much extra work and frustration you and the flight attendants have created to your other brothers and sisters that told the company they wouldn't walk across your picket line!! The same people that support you and your cause were kicked to the curb. You'll never understand because (as someone else stated to Mr. Hutchings) YOU don't see the big picture. You see the company through the cockpit window. You tell Dispatchers how to do their job. You tell Crew Schedulers how to do their job. You tell Maintenance how to do their job. You make fun of the "bean counters" and you have zero respect for any Manager or Executive at Jazz but yet, no one has the authority to tell you how to do your job. From the outside looking in...you guys have the easiest gig going. You only have to worry about one flight at a time. Trying sitting in Dispatch when 5 of your flights are holding in YYZ because of thunderstorms and you're all looking for the same answer at once. Try being a crew scheduler dealing with crews that don't want to fly...ever...and think that they are all experts in the interpretation of the CA. It's too bad that we can't pull the CVR and FDR randomly so Jazz can hear your solutions to all of the problems that this company has. Of course, if we were able to pull the CVR and FDR perhaps Jazz would find that your not as professional as you say you are. Perhaps Jazz would find that more of you are taking pictures out the window under 1000' AGL while your F/O is sweating trying to handle a 20 knot crosswind. So how does a pilot screw up? An accident...but then no one would ever rub it in your face because that would be unprofessional. You guys screw up all the time. Maybe their should be a forum when SOPs aren't followed. Like when you put someone in the jumpseat but leave bags behind (and no...it wasn't a bulkout) or when you show up at work without your red pass, or when you board the wrong aircraft even though your OFP has the correct tail or when you over torque an engine or when you sleep in or when you fly to the wrong airport or when you land on a taxiway in SEA or when you bust curfew in YYZ or YUL. I know that 95% of you guys a good peeps...it's this 5% that just drive me crazy!! I hope that the tentative agreement makes you guys happy again...but I doubt it.

Career Contract. We'll never be done asking!!

[dream_big]

Woah woah woah! calm down buddy! im not gonna sit here and argue with your silly rant, but please I am curious. what company do you work for? Sounds of things it must be a pretty perfect no mistake company. If it's WJ or AC then please don't even respond. waste of my time.

[Localizer]

Yawn! ...

[RFN]

Wow, this took a turn.

Calm down boys.

You cannot expect to question the authority and / or professionalism of one of our co-workers without a backlash.

Bottom line is it's up to the aircraft commander, not the passengers, not a fine young man in flight school, not crew sked, not the bean counters etc etc whether or not he wants to risk waiting out a ground stop without an APU in hot weather.


That's what you pay him for, and what you will soon pay him a bit more for.

Sit out a red alert, or ground stop with no APU in a CRJ 100/200 with a full load and you will want to crucify the crew.

[yellow hammer]

Well lets look at what we seen here as a counter argument for causing the MBA's delayed flight.

1)The cockpit could have been hot so it must have been hot because this is what the Pilots seen before.The pilots work in terrible conditions and the temperatures rise quickly where they are and on and on and on........

Incorrect assumption by all.It was a morning flight. 8:15 departure.It was cool.Unless there was a fire up there the temps could not possibly be that much higher than where I sat down.

2)Well the destination city could have been hot.

Wrong.We would have arrived at the destination city if on time while it was still cool.One hr flight.

3) I should be educated on aircraft issues and know better as a traveling person not to ask technical questions.Apparently I am an ass for interjecting my layman version.

I don't care to know.Nor should I need to know.I want to get from one city to another.You did not need the knowledge and skill of a Captain to determine that the plane was cool.

4)The bantering continued....... then it was picked up by I assume a flight attendant talking about legal work rights in 74 plus temps.

What did this have to do with this situation.My flight attendant was as cool as the rest of us people.


Conclusion:

Not a shred of validity to the argument for that Captain not to deliver his passengers.
I know not of aircraft systems,pilot or mechanical skills or the labor laws involved.I do know how to call BS when BS is present and I have done that here.I wish the pilots all the success in this contract but don't take it out on us passengers to get to your management.We have more power than any group or company.Even an MBA without Pilot skills can figure that out! If we strike you are done.Put that on your check list and think about it before you fly the next time.

[Seriously?]

"3) I should be educated on aircraft issues and know better as a traveling person not to ask technical questions.Apparently I am an ass for interjecting my layman version."



Well....seeing as this is a pilot forum and generally nobody here is a layman....then yes, you are a bit of an ass.


What are you doing on this forum anyway?

You're a passenger that was unhappy during a Jazz flight....that's unfortunate, but why not call the company or write a letter to them?


Conclusion:

Isn't there a forum for "MBA-types" that you could be perusing instead?

[yellow hammer]

Get off the MBA thing for god sake that is old chat now.It's not a pilot forum.It's an aviation forum and It's a public forum.Free to all.

Why would I go after the company? Its not their fault.I challenge the self proclaimed "PROFESSIONAL PILOT". Where does this designation come from anyways? I thought they just get a license like I have for my auto.
I am sure there is somebody ready and willing to educate me on that as well.
Look they are lining up now.

[Troubleshot]

Bottom line is it's up to the aircraft commander.

oh brother...you guys are commanders now?

[RFN]

Ok, I'll correct that to PIC if you prefer. Either way the word command is in there. Deep breath now.

Any job action taken by flight crews will obviously impact passeners. The same way job action by any organized labour impacts the end user of the skills involved. This sucks, but that's how it works.

If you feel that you were improperly treated on your flight (and it SEEMS like you might have been, based on your incomplete side of the story), then go to our corporate website and file a complaint.

If you feel that the Captain on your flight was "unprofessional" then I certainly hope you did not fly with him / her that day.
If you did still go flying with them, then I hope you will have the integrity to admit that you cared more about getting where you were going than whether or not the crew was professional.

[nottellin]

Get off the MBA thing for god sake that is old chat now.It's not a pilot forum.It's an aviation forum and It's a public forum.Free to all.

Ahha, he finally snapped, I wondered how long that would take.

[Inverted2]

We've refused aircraft at Jazz (CRJ) without an APU long before contract negotiations. If you've ever sat in a -100 on a hot day you would know how hot it gets in a very short time. Even once the engines are running, the airflow is so poor, you can barely feel the air coming out of the vents.

I support the crews decision, its better not to go, than to have a 40 degree cabin and have the risk of a medical emergency. Doesn't take an MBA to figure that one out!

[Johnny767]

"Aircraft Commander" is a common term. Used every day in the Canadian Air Force to identify, what civilians call the "Captain."

Since in the Military, Captain is a "rank," not a "position."

The "Captain" of a Civilian Airliner, is the "Aircraft Commander."

Legally carrying the full authority of a "Peace Officer."

Funny how petty jealousies come leaking out over a title.

Congratulations to the Jazz Pilots!

I hope there were not too many stunts like bogus snags - if any?

Airline Execs around the globe better get used to a revolt from their Pilots.

Frankly, there should be a World Wide - "Day of Mourning" for the Profession. Every Airliner gets parked for 24 hrs while the Pilots take a day off.

[disco]

.I challenge the self proclaimed "PROFESSIONAL PILOT". Where does this designation come from anyways? I thought they just get a license like I have for my auto.
I am sure there is somebody ready and willing to educate me on that as well.
Look they are lining up now.

Hi Yellow Hammer. Despite many of my fellow aviators having less than a professional discourse with you - a display that is somewhat disappointing, I would like to explain without any malice, the difference between a Professional Pilot and your auto licence. I will only touch upon this lightly in this forum.

To be fair, the knowledge and skill set required to obtain a Driver's Licence does not even get close to compare to that which is required for even the Private Pilot Licence (perhaps the closest comparable license in this discussion).

A professional pilot has gone well beyond the Private Pilot level of study and assessment to obtain a Commercial Pilot Licence and in order to be an Airline Pilot, has also obtained an Airline Transport Licence.

Again, it is unfortunate about the level of decorum some are willing to show on here toward a business passenger but in all fairness, the credentials of an Airline Captain are in no way similar to a Driver's Licence....regular or Commercial.

For your edification - for what it's worth.

I hope you will not choose to see all of us in the way that a few here conduct themselves.